Jump to content

If the 6.5x47L is so inherently accurate, why so few about commercially??


chaz

Recommended Posts

Hi folks.

Having just got my slot for a 6.5mm i thought i'd made my mind up on the Creedmoor. In the shape of the Tikka 3X TAC A1. But then i started reading some info on accurateshooter.com, And how "Inherently accurate" the 6.5x47L is supposed to be. "Even when seated 10 thou or 80 thou off the lands" !(Presuming an accurate load obviously).

Yet i find, or rather don't find much about it on-line commercially. Why would that be? Am i missing something here? I am new to 6.5, so my knowledge is very limited..... It's not even mentioned in my late version of the Lee Modern Reloading manual.

Are they that much better than the Creedmoor, to start my hunt for a new rifle all over again? Are they even commercially available, or would it have to be a used model or a new custom job?

Also, are they that much different from the 6.5x55 Swiss? I have found a basic Ruger 6.5x55 Swiss in a dealers, less than 100 rounds through it, (so it says) and in a boring guise, bar the stainless. And it's an ok price. (Putting aside the fact that i've never really been keen on Rugers) If the 6.5x47L really is that much better than the Swiss and the Creedmoor.

I wondered whether it would be worth buying it, then if possible (with regards to dimensions) keep the action, have it re-barreled to the 47L (Would it be an easy fit??) and buy a nice fully adjustable stock for it.

Just to add, i have absolutely no idea what so ever how much a medium gauge decent quality barrel would cost. Let alone how much a Gun Smith would charge to do the work.???

Some constructive advice would be appreciated.

Cheers.

Chaz.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Chamberings run with market fashions, but anything remotely "tactical" will always attract commercial chambering ahead of esoteric accuracy cartridges.

 

Beside the 6.5L, the same applies to the 6BR, another one that is " ïnherently accurate".

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6.5 x 47 seems to have one or two advantages by design over say 260 Rem or CM. It uses a shorter case and slightly less case capacity than CM at about 48g H20 Vs 52.5 g with the same SAAMI chamber pressures (62,00 psi ) and was primarily developed for 300m BR competition where it was designed to exhibit extended barrel life and better ballistics than the 6mm BR. It's meant to be a very efficient design utilising the slightly less case capacity for roughly equivalent velocities with some bullets, partly due to a higher SAAMI pressures being available over the initial large primer CM cases and efficient combustion courtesy of a 30 degree shoulder angle and small primer pocket case. One of the main advantages for competition shooters seems to be the high quality Lapua long case neck allowing seating deeper into the neck when using longer bullets that want seating closer to lands, and reduced tendency to doughnut, enhancing accuracy and consistency between shots. That has been demonstarted with some excellent 300 and 600 results since it's introduction.

 

However, whilst initially it seems to have had the real world edge over CM, Lapua have brought out small primer case versions of CM allowing comparable case pressures but with more case volume, so the 6.5 x 47 seems to have lost the edge for 1000 yard shooting to CM. I'm unsure if this is the only reason, but as it was primarily designed for 300 and 600m competition, few factory chamberings seem to be in the offing, compared with CM which seems to have taken off as a better jack of all trades for hunting and long range target.

 

I asked the question a while back of which 6.5 to go for for LR target and some field uses, and the real world consensus is that all of the 6.5's shoot pretty well and there's not a lot between any of them but as far as popularity goes, SWEDE and CM along with 260 Rem seem to dominate, with CM fast seeming to outsell the others if my smithy's experience is anything to go by.

 

Are they inherently better than CM for hunting? No. Probably not. Most 6.5s will be pretty darned good out to more extended ranges than .308 if you look at the ballistics when using say high BC 139/140gr bullets. Rest easy with your CM choice. It's where I'm headed myself as longer term you may find that there's more factory ammo starting to appear for CM where the same cannot be said of 6.5 x 47L. My guess is that CM will probably overtake 260 Rem as the all round 6.5 of choice for most people, with the SWEDE (and its larger case capacity but lower pressures) remaining popular for its softer shooting, cheaper cases (if you reload) and availability of factory ammo.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Chaz, agree with the CM/6.5 comments-just add the 6.5x55 Swedish has long been a very popular and effective deer cartridge,and is well served with commercial ammo,and can take heavier bullets,than the CM/6.5Lapua,260.But then the old 6.5M/S made it's frmidable reputation with 160+ bullets,back in it's day. Any of the modern 6.5s will also be good general purpose medium cartridges,pretty good fo all UK use. THe SWede has seen good use (often as AI improved) as a 1000y target cartridge and will see off the lesser capacity numbers...in a good rifle.

And that comes in,big time..."inherently accurate...in a good rifle.' Ruger may be,but not a make that has a top reputation for seriuosly accurate factory rifles(I had a PPC that was-UK records-but it seemed the only one.....and the Sako PPCs were rather more numerous,and good). Cost it out carefully-the initial price is just a start-if you want a rebarrel,then think £650+,and £200 more for a premium barrel (if ypu want best probability of real accuracy.The stock etc will be hunderds,and no doubt other bits....and you still have a Ruger,not a custom action-which are worth investing in (just better,retain more value). The choicee of 6.5s is somewhat limited,thoufgh the CM is welll represented in "tacticool' versions,which may/not appeal. Many cartridges make their reputation in custom rifles-with super barrels etc.PPC is a classic example-you won't see many basic rifles in that chambering. REal performance comes from the whole package,and is limited by the weakest link-action,barrel,scope,trigger,ammo,shooter! And there is a rreason for prices.Your choice may well have to be modest,but think ahead a bit-'upgrades'can run up a fair bill,and won't have quite the value of an initially 'better' rig. Of course,you may not need 'better" (that is measured in rather small improvements "on paper"-but just be awareof where most silk purses start from....if that glitz is what you really want.Tikka and Sako-including older models- can be sound choices for upgrades and some smiths prefer them-made more right to begin with.....

But you have to like your pet,and pig's ears work fine for their purpose,and budget matters (as does proposed use-the current very nice 6.5s wil not outshoot the current even ballistically nicer 7mms at 1000y targets.... have a good look at what is available and appeals/is suitable. Accurate shooter gives good information. Plenty of options,and will still be next month.... :-)

 

gbal

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Chaz,

 

Things like 'trendy' ( :ph34r: ), loaded ammo and whats hot in the US will drive things re. cartridges (and pretty much anything else shooting wise)

 

I have a 6.5x47 and a 6.5x55 both shoot very well and as always better than I do i.e. no matter what cartridge I used I would not 'miss' due to the cartridge - which is the case with most folks. When my 47 needed a new barrel I put another 47 on to the rifle because I had all the brass dies etc. The CM was better 'on paper' but would not help me putting bullets 'onto paper' over the 47 :)

 

If you are going to reload then any of the current 6.5's will do.

 

Only one make of 47 loaded ammo that I know of, which is expensive and below the cartridges capabilities (but accurate).

 

T

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I owned a tikka T3 varmint in 6.5x55 and it was insanely accurate. It shot the smallest group I've ever shot at 300 with 5 through a ragged hole. The x55 isn't a short action which the CM and x47 are but I'd really like to try the new hornady 147grain ELD-X in it as it has the capacity to really launch that faster than the others....... lovely cheap (last time I bought it) lapua brass too and easy to get cheap die sets.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Only a handful of rifle manufacturers have adopted the 6.5X47L ever, all European and all in semi-custom 'tactical' models - Victrix, Sabatti, Blaser (barrel option), and through Sporting Services, Accuracy International (although there is no mention of the chambering on AI's website so far as I've ever been able to see).

 

Only Lapua makes brass and factory ammunition. None of the specialist American ammunition companies which produce many loadings for 260, 6.5-284, and 6.5X55 load it.

 

The Creedmoor by contrast has been adopted now by almost everybody in both rifle and ammunition manufacturing in the west, bar Remington. Six or seven manufacturers now produce brass including the top quality stuff from Peterson, Norma, and Lapua the last named small primer / flash-hole as Gbal and Varmlr mention so that it can now exploit its 62,000 psi MAP SAAMI rating.

 

The 'in thing' right now in recreational rifle shooting in the USA and to a maybe slightly lesser extent here is the 'Blacktical' rifle started off by Ruger with its Precision Rifle and with Savage, Bergara, Tikka, Sabatti, and several others now battling it out in the US market. Offering a 'blacktical' product without a 6.5 Creedmoor option is to commit commercial suicide, the norm being 308 Win and 6.5 Creedmoor options and (maybe) 260 Rem too. Ruger is always at the forefront in reading the US market and has dropped the original RPR 243 Win fast-twist option for an RPR version that is optimised for the 6mm Creedmoor spin-off, also now adopted as a factory SAAMI registered number by Hornady. Why mention the US? For every new rifle sold here, there are likely 50 if not 150 sold there, an even greater ratio for rounds of factory ammo - and that's what drives things, Europe being at best marginal more likely 99% irrelevant to developments.

 

So, 6.5X47L is basically a custom rifle build / rebarrel and handloading option both here and on the other side of the Atlantic. As Lapua is very good at keeping things in production, I expect to see the brass continue to be available for many years, but the Finns have missed the boat in mainstream commercial terms and the few European rifle producers which offered the cartridge as an option are already replacing it with the Creedmoor chambering. I partnered one of our better northern F-Open competitors who has had his formerly 6.5X47L F-Class rifle rebarrelled by Dolphin Precision in 6.5 Creedmoor using Lapua small primer brass handloads and watched him put in a fantastic score on its debut outing a few weeks back taking the match from some very hot (and accurate) sevens amongst others. So I don't think that Creedmoor users are going to be unduly disadvantaged provided they use the Finnish cases - with the possible exception of in mid and long-range benchrest matches. Even there, we'll have to see how things turn out, as the 6.5X47L has been around a few years, was developed by Lapua in conjunction with Grunig & Elmiger, and the Creedmoor started life as a US 'XTC' number, is several years younger, and chamber etc development is only really getting under way now.

 

They are both good cartridges - and as others note, the average even above-average user is unlikely to see any distinct difference between the four common 6.5s - '47L, 260, Creedmoor, and 6.5X55mm when using handloads.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks for all the indepth opinions folks. Much appreciated. What seems to pop out at me, is that the Sabatti does the 47L.

It's just a shame that with regards to aesthetics, the Sabatti, (to me anyway) is not as nice as the Tikka, or even the Ruger.

I thought it may come with a 10 round mag too. Pretty to some i suppose.... My main concern with buying/ordering the Sabatti in 47L would be a low resale value, when compared to Tikka, and even the Ruger. Would that be accurate? I know very little about Sabatti, which makes me weary of buying it just as it is the 47L. I suppose i like the thought of the lower recoil with the 47L. But having never fired either, i've no idea how much less recoil there would be?? It's not that i'm worried about the recoil, i've used .308 and the old .303 with no issues. It's more of an, "It would be nice" rather than a need. The 47L also looks to have a very long neck, but i presume the CM and 55 Swiss would handle the same weight/length bullets just as well?

I fully intend to reload whatever caliber i get. I was thinking along the lines of the Lapua 139 OTM Scenar, or the something similar in Sierra range. Or even the Hornady 147 grain ELD-X.

Incidentley, is there any difference with the ELD and the VLD, with regards to buying the right seating stem, or would one fit the other?

Thanks for all the info.

I feel like i'm starting out all over again!!

Cheers.

Chaz.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Chaz,sabatti is relarively unknown in UK,as was Bergarra and so too are too new to be sure about resale.

 

The CM and 55 Swede (there is a swiss option-swiss match-but lets not complicate) have a bit more capacity-esp Swede,so will handle heavier bullets rather better-the L mightbe best with 123g,the Swede is available with 155g commercially....

 

Relative recoil for comparison:

 

308w. 1.95

Swede 1.72

260rem 1.73

 

CM and esp 6.5L just a bit less -depending on bullet/load,but much same ball park,and all four noticeably less than 308w,but well above say,243w at 1.25.

They all reload just fine-neck issue is overstated (as an actual example see 6BR and it's derived Dasher the exrta velocity makes the Dasher just a tad better as a long ranger in very shootable 6mms -sub 243 recoil,great ballistics when calm.)

 

Anyhow,think on-as you fear,makers can be quite selective on these fashionabe cartridge'and are geared as Laurie says,to the burgeoning US market for mid range shooting disciplines-Precision Rifle eg,and metal plate clanging,without too much recoil-hence too the 6mm derivatives of the 6.5s (for those who have forgotten the 6-08 (243!-with fast twist/115s a real contender....but dropped by Ruger,nothing to do with merit-more,as Oscar Wilde said,fashion is so interesting,we have to keep changing it.... :-)

 

gbal

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I bought a shot-out Tikka M595 in 243 off Guntrader for £295, sold the stock, had it rebarrelled in 6.5x47L by MikMak, (standard 30" Lothar 8 twist s/steel straight taper), and put it in a GRS Longrange stock.

Total outlay £1400, and on one lovely still morning, it did a 3-shot cloverleaf at 300 yds.

I've shot it at 1200yds and it beats the 308 hands down.

 

RePete

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks for the updates. Again appreciated.

I'll keep thinking... I believe i may have got swept along a bit by the notion that the 47L was a cut above the others, and worth choosing a make i don't know, and a model of rifle i'm not overly keen on when it comes to aesthetics. Or the back-end to be more precise...

Cheers folks.

Chaz.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm waiting for the .260x47 Swedish Creedmoor Improved 6.5 Ackley Wombat Magnum x 284 to come out

That'll be a winner, ooh yes....but only with small primer brass under a full moon in April

I heard Brian Litz was hand making bullets for that out of slightly smaller bullets and the foil off Tunnock's Teacakes.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks for the updates. Again appreciated.

I'll keep thinking... I believe i may have got swept along a bit by the notion that the 47L was a cut above the others, and worth choosing a make i don't know, and a model of rifle i'm not overly keen on when it comes to aesthetics. Or the back-end to be more precise...

Cheers folks.

Chaz.

I'm glad the penny had dropped.

 

If your hunting get the 6.5X55 tikka T3. You will NEVER see a difference between the cartridges mentioned.

 

But in reality you won't ever see a difference between any of them for target shooting either. Unless there is a specific need for 10 round magazines.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks for the updates. Again appreciated.

I'll keep thinking... I believe i may have got swept along a bit by the notion that the 47L was a cut above the others, and worth choosing a make i don't know, and a model of rifle i'm not overly keen on when it comes to aesthetics. Or the back-end to be more precise...

Cheers folks.

Chaz.

 

 

Don't 'think for too long', chaz.... might be out of fashion if you do! :o

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm waiting for the .260x47 Swedish Creedmoor Improved 6.5 Ackley Wombat Magnum x 284 to come out

That'll be a winner, ooh yes....but only with small primer brass under a full moon in April

 

I heard Brian Litz was hand making bullets for that out of slightly smaller bullets and the foil off Tunnock's Teacakes.

Where would we be without a few children on a shooting forum. :rolleyes:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm waiting for the .260x47 Swedish Creedmoor Improved 6.5 Ackley Wombat Magnum x 284 to come out

That'll be a winner, ooh yes....but only with small primer brass under a full moon in April

 

I heard Brian Litz was hand making bullets for that out of slightly smaller bullets and the foil off Tunnock's Teacakes.

Where would we be without a few children on a shooting forum. :rolleyes:

 

 

 

 

 

Don't 'think for too long', chaz.... might be out of fashion if you do! :o

The irony of that Snakeman... Me and fashion are like oil and water. As my wife and kids regularly tell me. :)

It's about right for me i'd say, about 10 years past... :lol:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

Where would we be without a few children on a shooting forum. :rolleyes:

 

 

 

The irony of that Snakeman... Me and fashion are like oil and water. As my wife and kids regularly tell me. :)

It's about right for me i'd say, about 10 years past... :lol:

 

:D ..Good luck with your decision...and good shooting

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Best of luck. FWIW, Sabatti doesn't seem to be importing any more of its new Rover Tac rifles with the Multiradial rifling in 6.5 x 47 to the UK. Perhaps that says something about the CM and other 6.5's out-selling the 6.5 x 47 as if they sold like hot-cakes, it would be a strange decision to stop further imports.

 

Bang-for-buck, Tikka 6.5 x 55, or 260 Rem or CM, or one from Bergara, for the money, will probably shoot as well as many custom rifles at twice the price. You pays your money and makes your choice. You can't go wrong with any of them.

 

Personally, I look for other things other than agonise over the minutia of "which is best" type arguments, such as brass availability, quality and cost, and the quality of the standard stocks fitted to these rifles, as there's nothing worse than having to buy a rifle then chuck away the stock for something decent (for example). From that perspective, some of the new kids on the block have obviously learnt a thing or two looking at other mainstream manufacturers as the semi-tacti-kewel rifles in Sabatti or Bergara line ups for example seem to come with pretty darned decent stocks. Companies like Tikka still seem to have a bit of work to do in that department for their heavier barrelled versions, even within the new T3x range. I'm not referring to the RPR military styled tactical rifles, but the heavier hunter.range type rifles.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Chaz

 

You don't say what kind of shooting you'll be doing. Hunting with occasional target. Target with occasional hunting. All target or all hunting? Also what sort of distances...out to 600m often or even out to 1000+?

 

Having owned a 6.5x47L and building another, plus a 6.5x55SE, I'd echo the comments above that state you won't likely notice any real world difference between the two.

I'd say that if you're shooting 800m or less and want the opportunity for the best possible accuracy with minimal recoil and simply easy to tune, go 6.5x47L. I use 123g Scenars at around 2930fps. That's only 4.4MILs out to 600m.

 

But if you're shooting regularly out to 1000 or beyond, I say you'd do better with the 6.5x55 as you'll shoot the 140-142g bullets more easily without the need for double based powders, which most people seem to need in the little x47L with those heavy projectiles. The benefit of the 140-142g heads is extra mass and usually better BC to help buck the wind at distance better.

 

In my experience, past 1000 the 123g scenars are really starting to dance around, especially in 20mph winds of the Brecon Beacons. The 140g would hold up much better to that and the bigger swede would help get them out here with good velocity.

 

No experince with the Creedmore or .260 but the main reason I didn't go .260 was needing to seat the bullet too far into the case if using a short action, reducing case volume. If you go 6.5x55, you'll need a long action and the Tikka T3 is an excellent choice - smooth feeding, reliable, plenty of after market parts, mag is long enough to use the 6.5x55 with long bullets.

If you go with your 'tactical' 3X Tac a1 choice you won't need to bed it. But if you get a regular T3, I'd say ditch the plastic stock, get a decent stock and have it properly bedded for best accuracy possible.

 

But all in all I'd say whatever choice (6.5x47, 6.5 Creedmore, 6.5x55 or .260), you have Lapua brass to use, making any choice a good one!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Catch-22 and VarmLR.

The answer is a bit of everything, with regard to hunting/target shooting. Anything from 100 yards to around 850 yards on my permissions. But i'd also like to do a bit of range work to. Maybe see if i can get it out to a1000 yards with "some accuracy"??

I did do my homework with regard to consumables and dies. Hence going the 6.5 CM route now. I've done the flash hole de-burring, primer pocket uni-forming. Tedious to say the least... Plenty of Lapua, Nosler, and Peterson brass out there. Plenty of single base powders in the Viht range. And plenty of bullet choice. My only concern is a hinged stock. I'd prefer not to have that. But it's only a minor issue as they-re along the lines of the AR platform, so easily changed.

Cheers.

Chaz

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I choose 6.5mm for my deer rifle and wasn't bothered which except I wanted a short action so Swede 6.5-284 etcwas out. Grendel wasn't quite deer legal

In the end I couldn't find the right rifle second hand in any of the other 3 (.260" 6.5 lap or CM) So had an action barreled in 6.5x47L . Doubt I would notice a difference if it was either of the other 2

Mine is Deer gun and occasional target out to 800 .

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Catch-22 and VarmLR.

The answer is a bit of everything, with regard to hunting/target shooting. Anything from 100 yards to around 850 yards on my permissions. But i'd also like to do a bit of range work to. Maybe see if i can get it out to a1000 yards with "some accuracy"??

I did do my homework with regard to consumables and dies. Hence going the 6.5 CM route now. I've done the flash hole de-burring, primer pocket uni-forming. Tedious to say the least... Plenty of Lapua, Nosler, and Peterson brass out there. Plenty of single base powders in the Viht range. And plenty of bullet choice. My only concern is a hinged stock. I'd prefer not to have that. But it's only a minor issue as they-re along the lines of the AR platform, so easily changed.

Cheers.

Chaz

 

I should stop worrying and just shoot the thing. It'll shoot better than most people behind the trigger are capable of to 1000 yds. On a still day, you should be within moa at 1000 yards. Plenty of people that I shoot with that shoot heavies in their .308's can just about manage 12 inches, despite the bullets being into transonic in sporting rifle barrel lengths by then. Best I've managed with a factory T3 in .308 was into 10 inches, so I'd expect better from the 6.5 CM.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use and Privacy Policy