Markers Bisley

[Montey]

I went to shoot at 1000y today with my local club but we had an NRA marker who was at best incompertant at worst dam rite Dangerous!!

I've made an official complaint regarding this marker and I urge every one Elle's to the same.

The reason being if we just shrug our shoulders and say ow well that's what you get things wont change.

I took one lad off to the zero range to check his zero at a 1000y it was down to 800y after he kept being told he was above the target.Thats dam rite dangerousness in any body's book.

I'm posting this in the hope we can all get the NRA to improve the standard of markers. We are only as good as the feed back we get back.

[Chris-NZ]

Some might say Time for electronic targets..

[duey]

There's always the chance that the lads bullet was impacting short and ricochetting over the top of the target frame making it look like the shooter was shooting high

Not always easy in the butts to work out what's happening having experienced it first hand both as a marker in the butts at 300-600yds and a sentry within sight of the butts on ranges

I have seen bullets skipping off the top of the mantlet and hitting the sand high indicating a high shot

comms from firing point to marker and the use of a spotter can often resolve the problem

I've Never shot at bisley so cannot comment about their range, but marked butts at various ranges with shooting upto 1200 yds

[bradders]

I went to shoot at 1000y today with my local club but we had an NRA marker who was at best incompertant at worst dam rite Dangerous!!

I've made an official complaint regarding this marker and I urge every one Elle's to the same.

The reason being if we just shrug our shoulders and say ow well that's what you get things wont change.

I took one lad off to the zero range to check his zero at a 1000y it was down to 800y after he kept being told he was above the target.Thats dam rite dangerousness in any body's book.

I'm posting this in the hope we can all get the NRA to improve the standard of markers. We are only as good as the feed back we get back.

 

I can't see how hitting the ground 200yds short of the target is the markers fault, or am I missing something here?

[Roy W]

I wouldn't take the zero range as verbatim either. If I try and show a 600 zero with 5.56, the sights are actually set for 400, don't ask me why, but those zero targets are hardly scientific.

[Re-Pete]

The point is if you can't trust the marker absolutely, then you're wasting your time and money.

If they don't mark accurately and give good feedback, they simply shoudn't be doing it.

 

RePete

[bradders]

The point is if you can't trust the marker absolutely, then you're wasting your time and money.

If they don't mark accurately and give good feedback, they simply shoudn't be doing it.

 

RePete

They're mostly youngsters doing it for minimum wage

The reason you have markers is because the majority of shooters can't be arsed to do it themselves

 

If some shooter can't get them on the board then why should the onus of responsibility fall on the marker?

Those frames at 1000 yds are 12'x6'....that's barn door size, if your shooter can't then hit that proverbial barn door, then does he really have business trying? especially if he has to be withdrawn and sent to the zero range to confirm everything!

I was at Bisley yesterday, and we were having enough trouble at 600.....1000 is a totally different story

 

For the record, the backstop on Stickledown is 100 yds behind the target, so it is very difficult to gauge and relay fall of shot

[Brillo]

The OP sounds like the guy was shooting at 1000 yards without already having a confirmed elevation at 900 or even 800 yards and that could be said to be stretching the boundaries of hope a bit too far.

I was shooting on Stickledown a while back where a shooter was having a similar problem to that referred to in the OP. After 4 shots that the marker couldn't mark or call the fall of the shot, the RCO stopped him shooting.

When I spoke to the guy afterwards it turned out it was the first time he'd shot that rifle at distance and hadn't even obtained an elevation at 300 yards.

Luckily for him we were shooting at 300 yards that afternoon and I helped him get a 300 yard zero having got him on the paper on the second shot.

I advised him to leave shooting at 1000 yards again until he could first hit the target at 600 yards then 800 yards then 900 yards.

[1066]

I wouldn't take the zero range as verbatim either. If I try and show a 600 zero with 5.56, the sights are actually set for 400, don't ask me why, but those zero targets are hardly scientific.

 

I think those zero cards really are quite scientific - that's why the range is 71 feet 7 inches.

 

The cards are really designed for Nato 7.62 RG ammunition, either 164gn or 155gn at 2,700 fps or what ever the standard spec is.

 

They can also supply a zero card for the Nato 5.56 round if you ask. However, only accurate if you are shooting the right ammunition at the right velocity with the standard scope height.

[Chris-NZ]

.. turned out it was the first time he'd shot that rifle at distance and hadn't even obtained an elevation at 300 yards.....

 

The rule on our (NZ) NRA- sanctioned range is that you must have a known zero to start. Main issue is we can't afford bullets straying outside the template, and secondly we can do without having a bullet through a microphone on the electronic targets.

[Roy W]

 

I think those zero cards really are quite scientific - that's why the range is 71 feet 7 inches.

 

The cards are really designed for Nato 7.62 RG ammunition, either 164gn or 155gn at 2,700 fps or what ever the standard spec is.

 

They can also supply a zero card for the Nato 5.56 round if you ask. However, only accurate if you are shooting the right ammunition at the right velocity with the standard scope height.

 

Scientific as long as strict criteria are met. Incidently I was using SS109 ammo, had the scope above barrel height correct for aiming point (the 5.56 card allows for various heights), and showed the elevation error. So I met the criteria, and it was still out.

 

I think rather than scientific, they are designed to 'get you on the screen' maybe.

[bradders]

 

Scientific as long as strict criteria are met. Incidently I was using SS109 ammo, had the scope above barrel height correct for aiming point (the 5.56 card allows for various heights), and showed the elevation error. So I met the criteria, and it was still out.

 

I think rather than scientific, they are designed to 'get you on the screen' maybe.

That they were drawn up by Fred the "Harmourer" says it all

[BoltHead]

The zero range is 71ft 7ins (23.86 yds) so that 1 MOA is exactly 0.25" on the target.

23.86 ÷ 100 × 1.047 = 0.25 (well, close enough). 1 MOA is 1.047" @ 100 yds.

 

We were shooting 1000yds on Stickledown as well on Sunday. Our markers said the sand was wet and wasn't showing much splash.

[Roy W]

Regardless of the zero range accuracy or otherwise, if the bloke was missing the target, it still isn't the marker's fault. They are markers, not spotters.

[bradders]

Regardless of the zero range accuracy or otherwise, if the bloke was missing the target, it still isn't the marker's fault. They are markers, not spotters.

Correct

[Dalua]

Regardless of the zero range accuracy or otherwise, if the bloke was missing the target, it still isn't the marker's fault. They are markers, not spotters.

I think the OP's point is that the marker was telling the shooter that he was shooting high, when this was apparently not the case.

So perhaps the lesson is that shooters should ignore any information from the butts apart from the mark, or its absence: and that markers should mark holes in the target and keep to themselves any speculation about what might have happened when there's no fall of shot.

[Montey]

Ok let me explain

Point one two pairs of very experienced shooters had shot first both wear un happy with the marker and the feed back they got back

When I say experienced al are TR shooters with any years experance at this range at Bisly and have represented thier county.

I gave up after 8 shots with my FTR rig that is dot on at that range end of no compromise I shoot with these guys because its were I started and I still Learn a lot from the many years of experance.

The young lad I mentioned has shot at 1000y before with us (308 155g RWS ammo) he used the data gained from his prievus shoots.

The point being every one goes on the information coming back from the marker he was told he was over and high we picked up that it was all going very wrong and stopped him shooting.

After I took him to the zero range and set him up for 600y he was dot on.

The NRA said we know this marker and we dought him (not word for word but???) they refunded our money no argument.

My point is its all very well the NRA up grading the infer structure but training of the markers and paying a proper rate is most important. Its no good us having the best set up costing much time and money if the markers are not up to the job.

As far as shooters doing it them selfs its a 1000y you can't leave the butts and shoot.

At 600 we did suply our own marker and had a great shoot.

The complaint has gone in and I've put my name on it.

[furrybean]

Ive only shot at Bisley in the league and have been really happy with the markers whenever Ive been there.

 

Not sure if they are the same ones but the speed and accuracy was all good!

[Elwood]

Ive only shot at Bisley in the league and have been really happy with the markers whenever Ive been there.

 

Not sure if they are the same ones but the speed and accuracy was all good!

Different markers I'm afraid.

 

To the original question, if you had all that experience when why didn't someone just spot and watch for the bullet trace ? It can be a pretty good indication.

 

I will agree that the markers can be very frustrating at times, even giving 5's and V bulls when the shooter has purposely aimed into the one ring!

[Re-Pete]

"even giving 5's and V bulls when the shooter has purposely aimed into the one ring"...............7

 

I would be seriously p%%sed if I thought that was happening, having driven 50 miles and paid for a mornings shooting.

 

That's why we mostly use a highly competent marker hired privately...............

 

RePete

[bradders]

"even giving 5's and V bulls when the shooter has purposely aimed into the one ring"...............7

 

I would be seriously p%%sed if I thought that was happening, having driven 50 miles and paid for a mornings shooting.

 

That's why we mostly use a highly competent marker hired privately...............

 

RePete

 

Markers don't just stick spotters in the target by making their own holes...

[Re-Pete]

I've been booking lanes at Bisley for the last 6 or 7 years, roughly once a fortnight, and I can count the no. of slow NRA markers I've had on one hand.

 

I've also hefted the frames on Century, and a slightly built teenager might well have a problem marking high shots, or even lifting the frames.........

 

I think that in the main, they do a good job.

 

RePete

[Private Marker]

I know this is an old thread, but I have to comment. 

I'm an NRA trained marker and recently I  started private marking. When shooters complain about the quality of the NRA markers, I have to say we're not all the same! There's a fair few of us that aren't stroppy disinterested teenagers. Unfortunately we are a minority. Many of the mature ones won't work weekends with the kids. 

I worked the  Imperial this year. The kids were a nightmare. Often staff were reduced to searching tents on the markers camp site when they didn't turnup. 

It's like this. You pay for a service. If you aren't happy complain.

You can book a private marker, of which I am one. Charges are slightly higher but you  know what you are getting. 

Any questions?   

[Brillo]

1 hour ago, Private Marker said:

I know this is an old thread, but I have to comment. 

I'm an NRA trained marker and recently I  started private marking. When shooters complain about the quality of the NRA markers, I have to say we're not all the same! There's a fair few of us that aren't stroppy disinterested teenagers. Unfortunately we are a minority. Many of the mature ones won't work weekends with the kids. 

I worked the  Imperial this year. The kids were a nightmare. Often staff were reduced to searching tents on the markers camp site when they didn't turnup. 

It's like this. You pay for a service. If you aren't happy complain.

You can book a private marker, of which I am one. Charges are slightly higher but you  know what you are getting. 

Any questions?   

Yes, how do I contact you if I need you?

[Elwood]

Interests "staring at sand" now that's funny.

how do we contact you?