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A question for the 6.5 aficionados


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A point of discussion came up with a fellow shooter yesterday, whilst experiencing challenging conditions (heat!) for the 900m targets. The topic of "which 6.5" came up or whether at ranges of up to 1000 yds, the humble .308 is still a good all round calibre if you limit expectations to about that range. Whilst I'm happy with my own .308, and have had reasonable success at this distance with it, if you consider moa to be a reasonable expectation for s sporting rifle, I was pondering my next variation as I'd like a purpose assembled rifle for my goal of shooting for fun well beyond 1000 yards.

 

The choices these days for longer range shooting seem to centre on HME rounds such as the 338 Lap Mag, or one of the 6.5 cals, such as the Creedmoor, 6.5 x 47 lap, 260 Rem or .264 Win Mag. I rarley hear anyone these days discussing the venerable 6.5 Swede. Is this because the long action and fashion for the newer short action 6.5s has pushed it out of favour? It seems to have a lot going for it as a good all rounder and would seem a better choice in some ways to the .308 Winchester for longer range work.

 

I'm not looking to add any more rifles to my cabinet for a year or so, but this one may be on the radar. Your views welcomed as to whether this, or one of the newer short action cartridges might be the way to go here.

 

 

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260 rem or Creedmore....all the same really.

 

Can't see the point of the 6.5 x 47 although it surely has its fans.

 

I shoot 260 well beyond 1000 and although I have a 308 I doubt that I would have bought it had I used a 6.5 first.

 

Easy to load tune, light recoil, plenty if bullet choice, less drop and drift than a 308 and not out of legs at 1000+.

 

Best to try one or two but the 260 is my 'go to' calibre.

 

Creedmore has small primer brass and flash hole I believe so reckoned to have more consistent ignition.

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http://www.targetshooter.co.uk/?paged=6&cat=58

 

6.5s in five parts including the 6.5X55mm. In practice, the modern 6.5X55mm SKAN with its 55,000 psi MAP upper limit won't outperform the modern smaller higher-pressure trio (x47L, 260, Creedmoor) despite its slightly higher capacity capacity case,but it'll do anything they do in ballistics terms equally well and gives nothing at all away in precision either.

 

It won't magazine feed from a short action rifle though, so is limited to European manufactured rifles so far as new factory models go. They are often not given the credit they should for their potential. A Tikka T3 Varmint heavy-barrel job will at worst equal and, more likely outshoot any of the currently fashionable 'blacktical' jobs, but that depends on the kind of rifle people want to own and whether they must have 10-round magazines. Stuart Benson has been shooting 5-shot groups well under 10-inches (often getting on for half that) in 'Factory Class' in UK Bench Rest Association matches at Diggle for the past few years with one of these - and continues to do so despite the rifle's barrel having a round count that ought to make it well over the hill if not completely shot-out.

 

There is no comparison ballistically between any sporting 308 and its 6.5mm equivalent at 1,000 yards, never mind beyond. In practice, 26-inch barrel 6.5s about match the current state of the art long-barrel 308 FTR using very warm handloads at this distance and beyond.

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Can't see the point of the 6.5 x 47 although it surely has its fans.

 

 

Maybe it has a level of inherent accuracy that is greater than its peers? maybe thats why it has fans?

 

There are plenty of 6.5x47s being used in 600 & 1000 UKBRA comps whereas very few if any 260R or Creeds, I wonder if that tell us anything?

 

A 6.5x47 currently holds the UKBRA Heavy Gun small group and aggregate record.

 

A lot is debated about cartridges, and so often its focused on what speeds can be achieved with a particular bullet weight as in the 6.5s whereas my thoughts are more focused on what is the most accurate case. When your getting out to 1000yds and beyond as the OP refers its surely better to take a bit longer to get there but arrive with success, fast misses dont really float my boat :)

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The general requirements for good performance at ,say,1000y are a matter of ballistics,largely-and here are Litz figures.

Taking the once,but no longer 6.5x284 as 'standard'/benchmark,here is what has to be ,by calibre notice-not simply cartridge,to match the big discriminator...wind drift (70" for 10mph in the 6.5x284)

 

223. Bullet 90g BC .502 @3270fps

 

6mm Bullet 115g BC.585 @3065fps

 

6.5. Bullet 142g BC.565 @ 2950 fps

 

7mm Bullet 175 BC.596 @ 2800 fps

 

30 Bullet 220 BC.627@2650 fps

 

Barrel life increases down the list,and recoil increases.

Competition weight limits may mean recoil cannot be equalised for the 30 cal

The assumtion (short of a 1000y tunnel test) is that bullet accuracy is similar (6BR excepted,maybe)

The criteia are not all completely independent,for example BC decreases with velocity (given as G1 here).

 

Good enough to show why some calibres/cartridges are favoured and others not .

In sporting/ casual club rifles--ie not out and out competition rigs-there is more....err...flexibility (aka compromises).

But the basics apply-you can compensate a bit for lower Mv with incrased BC,but there are limits (in the bullets,and pressures).

 

OK,the popular favourite mid 6.5s (Creedmmor,@60rem,x47 Lapua) struggle to hack it,really-and are pushing pressures,which may be Ok in srtong actions,and small primer brass has helped....

...that's to match-not exceed the 6.5x284...which might be pushed too....the "straight" 284 is now a popular fclass cartridge-7mm cartridges offer a lot in useable shootability,and choices,and not just the magnums.

 

Better bullets keep appearing-Berger Hybrids,for example-so comparisons should be like with like....(within calibre)

 

The current 100O+ a bit frontrunners are the 7short mag class....add in some 30s maye....

 

Go a long way out,say 1200+ and the serious big capacities take over...338 class and more.

 

OK 'my 223 is fun out to 1000y' depends more on definition of 'fun' than ballistic competence.

 

The popular trio of 6.5s (or at least two of them ) are likewise good general performars-but not laser rays,at distances approaching 1000 yards.They are also popular among shooters who do not have access to ssomewht more specialist LR rigs...so again,lots of fun,and reasonable performance...AND readiliy available in factory rifles...as indeed is the sound all round 308w (30"barrels indicate it's getting close to it's limitsthough-even in competition rifles....

These 6.5/308w are very much 'if that's what you have' then use it...but do not expect regular parity with the hot 7s (to which add,but a tad behind,the 284w and its upgrade Shehane class....there is a reason these are often the choice of the more serious competitior at 1000y,but they are not well supported as factory rifles (Shehane,and some others are wildcats).

Probably fair to add the 'competitive' Long Range rig will need to be more half moa....and stye of shooting comes in...the 6BR does very well in benign conditions,given its accuracy and shooting ease-you can get five shots off within a wind condition...that is much less of a strategy with a heavy recoiling 30 with brodly comparable terminal ballistics.

Just to underline that,the 6.5s can be about 13/14 lb,while the 30 will need 23lb lb for parity on recoil/shootability.

 

Within all this,it's down to personal reference/availability/ergonomics/fashion....etc-but apples to apples,there are clear reasons why some calibers are preferable to others...and this should be weighed in with other uses (if there are such...eg,the 6.5x47 is not a very good choice for a dedicated 1200y rifle,it's pretty cool for up to 750y at club level and reasonably sized gongs,as well as most live target shooting in UK-but so is the 308w,and........).The Creedmoor is fairly new,esp in 'palma' brass improved version,but on the up (among the 3 or 4 main 6.5 contenders).Precision Rifle shooters are moving to the 6mm derivatives -less recoil,most else the same for their sport.

 

Realistic rationalism rules-or should...if you can beat a dedicated 1000yshooter with a hot 7 short mag regularly with your mid range 6.5 CM,then that is very good work.Think whether you'd be even better with a hot 7.

 

Oh,6.5x55 -it's is right in the 6.5 mix-L/A matters hardly at all....and in Ackley Imp guise it pushed the x284s,and was once a contender...a bit more powder is seldom a disadvantage as distance stretches out! (My Bat 6.5 55AI is 140@2970;Shehane 180@2925. Rem 700 308 190@2560 really can't keep up with those two,despite being sub moa at 1000y).

 

Have realistic goals,and good shooting.

For some,the positives from 1 hit in 10,is about the same intensity as the negatives in another at 1 miss in 10.

(Figures here approximate-but 'half full,half empty' is the general personality dimension.

 

"It's a hobby" and fun matters.

 

gbal

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http://www.targetshooter.co.uk/?paged=6&cat=58

 

6.5s in five parts including the 6.5X55mm. In practice, the modern 6.5X55mm SKAN with its 55,000 psi MAP upper limit won't outperform the modern smaller higher-pressure trio (x47L, 260, Creedmoor) despite its slightly higher capacity capacity case,but it'll do anything they do in ballistics terms equally well and gives nothing at all away in precision either.

 

It won't magazine feed from a short action rifle though, so is limited to European manufactured rifles so far as new factory models go. They are often not given the credit they should for their potential. A Tikka T3 Varmint heavy-barrel job will at worst equal and, more likely outshoot any of the currently fashionable 'blacktical' jobs, but that depends on the kind of rifle people want to own and whether they must have 10-round magazines. Stuart Benson has been shooting 5-shot groups well under 10-inches (often getting on for half that) in 'Factory Class' in UK Bench Rest Association matches at Diggle for the past few years with one of these - and continues to do so despite the rifle's barrel having a round count that ought to make it well over the hill if not completely shot-out.

 

There is no comparison ballistically between any sporting 308 and its 6.5mm equivalent at 1,000 yards, never mind beyond. In practice, 26-inch barrel 6.5s about match the current state of the art long-barrel 308 FTR using very warm handloads at this distance and beyond.

 

Thanks Laurie, as usual, good sage observations. Funnily enough, it was the Tikka that I had my eye on, as I've been delighted with the performance of my .308 varmint barreled T3. I'm not interested in tactical-styled 10 shot rifles. A long action 5 shot magazine or even hand loading for the longer bullets would suit me fine.

 

In temps approaching 27 or 28 degrees yesterday, even very slight changes in humidity and temps (eg when cloud obscured the sun) and slight whiffs of cross-wind seemed to have us all chasing around the clock irrespective of what we were shooting (various rifles from 30 inch dedicated .308 target rigs, AI's and sporting rifles plus a smattering of .223s). From 75 rounds, I only managed around 20 bulls into the 7.5 inch centre of a 300yd tin-hat target which we use at 900m, the majority landing in between the next ring out and the centre ring, but that seemed to be about as well as most others managed. It seems easier to achieve better consistency in cooler conditions with a steady side wind. No-one was shooting a 6.5 AKAIK, and the discussions centred around whether something chambered on a 6.5 might have fared better given the superior BC of the projectiles. The other thing with soaring temps and no cover was that ammo got stonking hot, and the recoil from my 308 shooting 175's was horrible (I have the bruises to prove it!). The temp sensitivity of the Viht propellant was partly the issue here as pressures no doubt rose.

 

Outright velocities are less important for me than accuracy and bullet stability. I may do a little more homework and see what Tikka's current offerings are in the SKAN and look at the differences between carts a little more. I'm minded to look at a factory case rather than something I'll need to neck up or down (with the inherent issues of neck thickness and consistency).

 

As you say Gbal, it's as much about fun as anything else.

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The problem with 308 Win even with tailored handloads and optimal bullet selection is not that it won't reach 1,000 or thereabouts from factory rifles, but that it won't keep bullets above transonic speeds (>1.2 MACH). Transonic flight makes the bullet much more 'skittish' in any atmospheric change as well as tending to increase group dispersion even in ideal conditions.

 

Berger Bullets / Applied Ballistics llc (Bryan Litz) who know a thing or two about extreme range shooting (Team Applied Ballsitics having won the annual King of Two Miles competition every one of the three years since its inception) are very keen on keeping bullets completely out of transonic speeds. ie > c.1,351 fps. However, US Army tests many years ago on the old thirty calibre 173gn FA Match FMJBT bullet found that the prevailing speed of sound + 100 fps seemed to be the key barrier - ie ~1,230 fps retained velocity at the target in standard conditions. Drop below that and it was found that without external influences group size grew by 50% plus, and wind changes roughly doubled bullet movement.

 

Taking the new Sierra 155gn Palma MatchKing as a good representative 308 bullet in its class with its 0.237 G7 BC and pushing it up to 2,900 fps plus with a compressed charge 60,000 psi load in a 26-inch barrel rifle sees 1,000 yard speeds right on that US Army borderline and 100 fps below the Applied Ballistics optimum - and that is a hot load / high MV from a rifle of this sort. (Standard ballistic atmospheric conditions which will apply to most UK shooting, but potentially very pessimistic when considering many of the high altitude, hot semi-desert mountain locations seen in American You Tube demos.)

 

By comparison we have the very mild 6.5 Creedmoor load that I used in a borrowed Savage LRP last year which pushed the low-BC (by 264 bullets standards) 140gn Nosler 'Custom Competition' out of the muzzle at a mere 2,710 fps and we get the same 1,000 yard retained speed but with a 12.5% windage reduction. Up the ante to a 140gn Berger Hybrid at an attainable 2,800 fps MV from a 6.5 Creedmoor handload (or 260 Rem, 6.5X55 etc) in a 26-inch barrel and retained velocity at 1K is 1,500 fps, windage reduced by more than a full quarter compared to the hot 308/155gn load. Despite its modest ballistics, I managed a 1,000 yard 5-shot group in the sixes (inches) with that rifle and load in a UKBRA match last year.

 

That is the ballistic difference between common cartridges in the two calibres.

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Yes, there's no denying the ballistic superiority of the 6.5's Laurie. I mostly shoot 1000 to have a bit of fun but also to test myself and my load consistency. The best I've shot with the .308 was using 190 matchkings which achieved just about moa in almost ideal conditions, but anything outside of ideal sees dispersion grow asymptotically. They were chono'd at 2500fps. By contrast, my loads yesterday were pretty hot loads for the 175 MKs and leaving the barrel closer to 2600fps from a 24 inch barrel. By 900m, they were barely supersonic. The better bullet to use is the 175TMK if persisting with .308 for that sort of range I think with it's impressive .267 G7 BC compared to the .243 of the SMK. Similar velocities can be obtained but with better retained velocity making them a contender. However, the 6.5 Creedmoor, 260 R or the SKAN would be the more obvious choices if I am going to up the ante.

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It's not easy to separate out only BC (given interraction with velocity) but 'we' (those who get some fun from figuring....here is some from Zant,PRS:with a WEZ analysis (aka Litz):

All data assume rig intrinsic precision of .5 moa,and high accuracy (group centered on target)-ie very good shooting :

 

Hit % on a 10" target at 700y and 20" at 1000:

 

 

308w Sierra 175g G7.243@2600fps. 56. 46

6.5 Creedmoor 140 Berger Hybrid G7.320 @2850. 80. 75

6mm Creedmoor105 Berger Hybrid G7.278 @3100. 79. 74

260 Nosler Berger 140 Berger G7 .320. @3300. 89. 85

 

There has been a decisive swing away from 308w in PRs,to the 6.5/6 CM (the 260 and Lapua are pretty much the same),and it's clear why....more hits (less recoil,less barrel life too).

The % asssume preety high spec rigs (.25 moa,10fps MVsd

 

Itake the point-of course-that bullets improve and the 308 with TMK would do better,but still behind.

Note the 260 NOsler figures show that there are diminishing returns (irrespective of Noslers claim accuracy,and recoil is getting prohibitive,as is barrel life- upping the MV by 450fps gives about 10% more hits-and unlikely many will adpot it in PRS.It is almost identical here to 7Rem mag and 7WSM.(useable in heavy rifles at 1000+).The 338 Lapua is not better at these distances-it is further out,of course.

 

This-with provisos that the performance/specs are as given,is fairly clear support for the superiority of the Creedmoor (and of course other carridges of that class).Other less optimal combos of bullet/rifle/shooter etc may reduce-even reverse-any advantage,but apples to apples,308w does not come out as well as the 6.5CM here.Nor are the mid 6.5s the bees knees either-as the table in my previous post shows,there are lots of combos that can deliver,but the 6.5 is probably a very good compromise for many non specialist shooters,for whom 1000y ish is not their only interest.

So the club guys are on reasonable ground.

 

Just for (more?) fun, here is how wind uncertainty affects % hits even on a big target (ISPC 30x18inch) at 900y:

 

 

0. +/- 1. +/-2. +/- 3. +/- 4. +/- 5 wind uncertainty mph

 

308w 175 @2600. 100 96 68. 54. 37. 33. % hits at that uncertainty

 

300Win Mag 230@2700. 100. 100. 94. 81. 67. 58. % hits at that uncertanty

 

The (better BC) Win Mag clearly wins (both rigs are .5 moa and 10fps MV SD)....even on a biggish target when wind misjudged,and superiority increases with wind error...

..As we all know...though not usually by exactly how much....

 

308w hit% at 900y decreases as MVSd increases 5/10/15 fps. 20/15/10 % with 5inch bull) and 56/49/37 (10 inch bull) eg with a 5 inch bull, 10 fps MVSD increase means a drop to 15% hits

 

 

 

Time for some low level fun - does service speed win Wimbledon matches...or is it more complex.... :-)

 

gbal

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

..

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I think that either Creedmoor, SKAN or 260 Rem might be the way for me to go. Any of those would do. The limitation will be what's available as a factory rifle V's having a custom rifle made. Factory, there are a few options, with Tikka making a lot of sense right now. As much as I like the idea of the challenge of ultra LR shooting, and have the opportunity to shoot at a mile, I can't justify the expense of running an HME outfit. At 1000 yards. I don't see much practical benefit to HME over 6.5 tbh (just extra cost, noise and recoil!) and I've seen guys using .308s and 175TMKs out-shoot others using 338 lap mags at that distance too.

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Wind judgement may be a considerable factor between cartridges...here is effect of wind error on a 10" circle at 900y.

2 rigs,a .5moa 338Lapua Mag,,300g Berger Hybrid G7 .418 MVSD 15fps @2750:fps.....

..and 308w 175g G7 .243@2600.5moa MVSD 15fps:

 

For 338L:1mph.wind error Hit % is 82% For 308w. 1mph wind error Hit % is 48

338L 5mph wind error Hit % is 64% ; 308w 5mph wind error Hit % is....well below 48.. (For 308w 15" target it's 76%,5" target it's15%....so 10" is between those -but well under the 338's 48%).

 

This of course has to assume equal prcision/accuracy,etc.

This condition will rarely be satisfied among 'club' level shooters.

The advantage still seems to be with the 338L though for small targets,given equal 'pure' rifle control skill.

 

That does not mean ,the 338 is 'best',but it has a ballistic margin over the 308 when wnd is present (strictly,wind errors-though the advantage is consideable for low winds...do we ever get those...and more wind makes it tough for everything...perhaps never quite an equaliser,though?)

 

And of course,what it feels like on the shoulder and pocket to shoot a high round count. :-)

 

 

gbal

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Of those three - if you are after a more modern short action type rifle - my choice would be towards the .260 due to the brass options.

Otherwise if you just want a long range 6.5 & are not fussy on action type, an older Swedish 6.5x55 would get the job done; either a modern Tikka/Sako, or even a re-barreled Mauser M96.

Get what you feel the most comfortable using as they all spit the same bullet out the front end

 

My thoughts exactly although I do understand too that some cartridge choices can mean slightly improved accuracy potential. I'd almost made my mind up at the 260Rem tbh but would settle for a Swede or Creed'

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I can speak from a level of first hand experience with both 6.5x47L and the Creedmoor. So within these constraints the accuracy of the 47L is top dog up to 600 yards. My 120 Berger and 130 grain Berger have just won me a 100, 200 and 300 yard tightest group competition to validate this.

 

My Creedmoor is a very close second at 600 yards but at 900 and 1000 yards it really comes into it's own.

The first time I shot it at 900 yards I was almost off the top of the frame. The real world difference with my 142 grain SMK and 140 grain A-Max loads with H4350 at the Hornady factory load spec saves 4 MOA elevation against my .308. I know the Quickload Creedmoor windage predictions but this means in the real world windage wise I can only guess. The only way I can verify and validate this is to shoot my 308 FTR rifle and the Creedmoor side by side.

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OP,

 

Missed out the 7mm's. Don't need to leap from 6.5 to 300 or 338 magnums. Keep your own teeth into old age, shoot a 7 !

 

6.5's and 6's increasingly popular due to US PRS mania. The benefits of a number of factory rifles becoming available in 6.5CM is likely to create a virtual circle. That may be a good enough reason to go that route, second hand values will hold up !

 

However, PRS is a 'run and gun' game of short time limits, high round counts and limited max v, which is why they ended up in this place. The Champions gun is defo a 6.5 or a 6.

 

Without these constraints would the Champion choose to shoot a 6.5? Well no they don't. A fast 7 is going to be inside a short action 6.5, and indeed a heavy for calibre bullet in a 7 SAUM is going to beat a similar set up in 6.5 SAUM.

 

If the choice includes 'exotics' then don't discount some of the rarer 7's - good modern bullets, more weight = higher bc. Don't have to go magnum either 280 Ackley (etc) will give good performance, (one for sale on Guntrader just now for £1200 including 6.5 Swede barrel and dies for £1200. no it's not mine :) )

 

On a similar vein I saw a video the other day about the 6.5 Swedemoor (6.5 Ackley ??), obviously an attempt by the PRS guys to get a 140gr 6.5 to 3000 without going full magnum. Looked like a nice place to be.

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Ahh....the intriguing world of the 140g /3000+fps 6.5...

...for 6.5 addicts (a very benign condition) the latest-well,as of yesterday- is the...

 

6.5 Addiction (Swedemoor,better yet Swedemore?).

Fireform 6.5x55 brass in the Addiction chamber...3000 fps seems fairly easy (and 3200 has been claimed-'heavy bolt lift' in a Defiance action..yes ,well it would be,wouldn't it?...But a "Defiant Addiction" now there is a name for bravehearts,if not mens sanas.

A close clone of the unsext named 6.5GWI/BJ-AI,slightly more taper and 37 degreee shoulder...and the clue is AI-yes Ackley Improved. The 6.5 Addiction might be close in on the 6.5 Saum.Barrel life...2000-2,500? So a new addiction will come quite soon...

 

Almost bottom line is that the 6.5x55 Ackley Improved is probably near identical,and the reamers-let alone dies- are fairly readily available....unless you have a serious....err...addiction? (Only damages your wallet,here).

 

The 6.5x55 Ackley Improved is no slouch to 1000y,nor lacks comparable accuracy potential (given wind damage,a couple of decimals in moa are not hard to establish for any contenders anyhow...and it's transonic progress that matters,as Laurie rightly points out...the bullets can be the same,so BC under control...)...sample real data Bat AI 140@2970fps,easy lift,etc.

 

There may be some lingering underestimation of the 6.5x55 case because of it's (pre SKAN) relatively mild underloading in defernce to older military rifles (which still had excellent medium deer performance).The modern Swede is an altogether differnt cartridge,especially in AI format. You could add in 6.6-06 AI. a few others,generally more bother to rebrass.But it's not a hot 7 buster-few cartridges are-unless they afre tooth busters too.

The 6.5 mid trio are probably better propositions for the 'club'shooter,who is not a LR specialist,but enjoys a realistic chance of contact with 1moa gongs at distance,without being'competitive' with current state of the science (ballistics isn't an art...black,or shade of grey.)

Varm makes a lot of sense on this-and it probably comes down to individual prefernces,well founded or perhaps less so-but whether the right rifle exists (at right price) comes in-as should your balance of useage.The 6x47 for exaample is probably the best for fine accuracy to 600y (it was designed to dominate 300m CISM shooting);while the 260Rem is the fine hunting choice(despite limitedfactory support-but just how much do you need to shoot deer 200y away? The kynoch load of 160 g didn't stiffle the excellent 6.5 M/S-and as a rifle/cartridge combo,it was a real winner-long before BC had been discovered/invented..61/2 lb and good for most quarry-what's not to carry around?)

Magazine feed matters some in hunting rifles-260 is reliable. The Creedmoor was developed as an accuracy round,and it's good-and clearly has found a US niche (helpedno end by PRS-which it just suits genuinely).Lotsof minor points on all these,from acton length to brass availablity-are minor or liable to become obsolete as brass/bullets/etc improve-small primer anyone,and a good thing too. Very few such actually discriminate.(postlal expanding missiles?) Rifle 'style' might matter subjectively-'tacticool' is not just for the factifool (my next one wil be a Tac1...be tough though if a 6mm option gets marketed....243 fast twist would save hundreds of £ on yet differnt brass,dies etc-not a deal breaker,but a consideration (PRS seems quite close to my useage for this class of performance-sub 1000y for me.

 

Indulge your whims- if only a marketing guru could give an analysis of 'pleasure' or 'satisfaction' or 'best buy' index...

 

There is a nice story in the excellent (now dated)- "The rifle in America'-by Phil Sharpe (He had a good 7mm cartridge): on hearing that a new super magnum was coming onto the market asked "Why would anyone in American need such a cartridge?',received this reply from the Marketing Vice President. "I don't know,but we'll sell an awful lot of them."

 

Plus ca change,plus ces't la meme chose....well,almost (allow for an Ackley Improved now and again)! :-)

 

gbal

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I had considered a "7" but from what I've seen, there's more availability in the 6.5, which is one of the draws. For example, you can buy the T3 Tac in both 6.5 Creedmoor and 260 Rem but not in 7mm Rem, although the Super Varmint T3x is available in the 7mm-08. I had looked at the 7mm-08 Rem and the .280 Rem. Both appeal as being milder to shoot than the magnum and ultra-mag 7mm varieties and also from having longer barrel life but still with the advantages of high sectional densities and good LR performance. Not sure, real world, if there's a lot in it between those and a hotter loaded 6.5 x 55 though, unless choosing a specific barrel to shoot say the high BC 197gr matchkings which may rule out quite a few factory rifles.

 

I'll just wait and see as I'm in no rush. It'll probably be more a case of what's available at the time, be it a 6.5 or 7mm.

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SAAMI specs,mainly hunting loads,all 140g;a few manage maybe 25fps more,and variably 2825.1.80 more loaded warm.MV/recoil factor:

 

260R. 2750/1.73

7-08R 2825/1.80

280R/284W 3000/1.94 (same recoil as 308W)

7Rmag 3150/2.06

7Saum/WSM 3175/2.07

 

AS Varm-current rifle choice is somewhat limited,but varies between maker and calibres,and may change a little.

There are a few other options-for example,the 7x64 is pretty much between the 7-08 and 284,and available from some Euro makers...extending/complicating choices.

The more serious 1000y competitos will come in at 284,to handle the better current BC 180 bullets,and the 'hot 7' light magnums are also popular,with a bit more pop,still just shootable (allows controlled fire in heavy rifles-rule governed.)

 

gbal

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Looking at the new posts this morning, this site seems to be a For Sale section at the moment so here goes...

 

I know it was my point about the 7's but that was more about completeness than anything else. Hard to get excited by 7mm's that are not in front of a lot of powder, why bother ? If its about external ballistics a 6.5 is more readily available and well proven. If it is terminal ballistics the 308 is predominant in short action.

 

I finally crossed the rubicon the other day to the view that the 6.5 (CM probably) will eventually replace the 308 in the nations gun cabinets. Possibly because it could also replace the 243 + 308 combo. It can cover most of the applications of both calibers in this country and is therefore half the cost (and removes the spectre of the grumpy Highland stalker for 243 owners). As a factory rifle it will perform very well on the range, in the woods and on the hill - it will cover most situations.

 

Sure the larger calibers will still have their advantages on big animals at longer range or to stop them making cover but those are much less common scenarios.

 

When I started out it was all about which caliber should I buy. Well its an easy answer now. 6.5CM - no reloading, soft to shoot, performs well on the range to way out there for a beginner and will cover the 6 UK deer species at sensible ranges well. Why buy anything else?

 

So I see sales building party on the back of hype (or is it well deserved recognition of performance) for new entrants and on the back of the 'new gun itch' for old lags (of course we have the luxury of just screwing on a new barrel)

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  • 3 weeks later...

I tend to agree with you Chanonry, but I also see that there may be a designation between the 6.5's as which ends up the favoured sporting factory rifle cartridge and which ends up as the range baby. For all the reasons highlighted in the responses so far, 6mm BR or 6.5 x 47 will probably dominate up to 600m for some time into the future, with many F-Class 1000 yd shooters and BR shooters perhaps favouring the Crede or 260Rem. I have time on my side, but for now will just enjoy seeing the .308 out as it has served me well as a sporting rifle and for plinking and LR target practice. Recoil is a problem with the longer range loads....the last batch were a little too hot and my shoulder was black and blue after 75 rounds went down-range. that's something I wont miss. Even with the stock properly adjusted and the stock firmly into the shoulder, a Tee shirt is not much protection from a hard but-end and a heavy recoil!

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Here are the chambered barrels used by the 2016 US F Class Rifle Open RifleTeam:

 

284Win 15

7mmWalker(a 40degree 284) 6

7mmRSAUM 4

7/270WSM. 2

280 1

300WSM. 2

 

Only one 30- a Short mag.

No 6.5s

 

Of course PRS gives a quite differnt picture,for differnt kind of shooting-more like 50%for the 6.5 usual suspects and 50% for their 6mm versions...trending currently to 6mm . (enough,but no excess recoil,in a nutshell-just as the 7mms the LR Fclass shooters.)

(And these guys have to buy new barrels fairly often)

HUntersdon't,and 30s still do well (and work).

 

Varm,yes it's not just 'maturity'-the 308 always recoiled too much really,verging on unpleasant,especially with the heavier ballistically less disadvantaged bullets,but the issue remained- not enought ballistic gain to offset the muzzle flip/loss of sight picture/slower return to shooting position etc,and general discomfort (6BR anyone? :-)

Choice of calibre-more specifically cartridge within calibre,is restricted by manufacturers-there are enough very good choices,but maybe not your absolute preference (short of custom,of course).No Tikka TX3 TAC hot 6mm,fast twist,for example-or indeed any 6mm....yet?

 

gbal

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No, but they do offer a 260 Rem and a 6.5 SWEDE in both the T3x Sporter and both a 260 REM and 7mm-08 in the Varmint, in relatively fast 1/8 and 1/9.5 twist respectfully in a 23.6 inch barrel. They'd probably make excellent "do-it-all" rifles.

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With the 7-08 model, a lot will depend on how the chamber is 'throated'. In US led factory use, the cartridge is very much a Whitetail / Mule deer number orientated to 140gn bullets, 150gn tops.

 

For longer-range match use, the better / higher BC 160-168gn bullets are needed at MVs attainable from the 6.5s with 140s. The 168gn 7mm Berger VLD has an almost identical average G7 BC to that of the 140gn 264 VLD equivalent, so needs to be driven to similar velocities to be comparable in ballistic terms. As the mid size 6.5s can get 2,700-2,800 fps from 26-inch barrels, more in some cases, and no doubt some 'interesting' velocities turning up soon in small primer brass in the Creedmoor, the 7 risks being rather deficient in this respect.

 

I've been shooting a single-shot custom 7mm-08 in F-Class for two years now and am very fond of this little, light recoiling cartridge - it can be stunningly accurate with the right loads. This is a very long-freebore chamber giving COALs a shade under 3-inches and that's pretty essential with it. I run the 160gn Sierra TMK at around 2,830 fps with N160 in a 31-inch barrel - add another 100-200 fps if I put MV before barrel life and used really hot loads in small primer brass with high-energy powders. As it is, the barrel life should be very good indeed, better than any 6.5 can produce, but less than a 308 comparably loaded. Small primer brass is easily obtained - just run Lapua 308 Palma through a 7-08 FL die.

 

So, I'd say off the top that the T3 Varmint in 260 or 6.5X55 would be a better off the shelf option than the 7mm-08 version for this purpose.

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No, but they do offer a 260 Rem and a 6.5 SWEDE in both the T3x Sporter and both a 260 REM and 7mm-08 in the Varmint, in relatively fast 1/8 and 1/9.5 twist respectfully in a 23.6 inch barrel. They'd probably make excellent "do-it-all" rifles.

 

Varm

 

You might have missed this?.....(see middle of page for 20" barrels and bottom of page for 23.6" barrels - so Creed is actually another option for you, seeing the CTR is likely the same cost as any varmint variant, apart from 'A1 Tac pistol grip)

 

http://cdn1.tikka.fi/sites/default/files/Technical_specs_T3x_CTR_0.pdf

 

ATB

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  • 1 month later...

Thanks, yes, noted.

 

I've now been given the go-ahead by my licensing team as they'll approve a 1 for 1 on my 22WMR as a straight swap for a 6.5 cal. I won't put down which 6.5 just yet so as to keep my options open, but I've pretty much settled on 6.5 x 55 or 6.5 crede. My RFD is keen to point out the advantages he sees on going the 6.5 x 47 Lapua route but brass availability and expense needs to be carefully considered and Crede seems to be the most popular of the current crop, so availability seems to be better than for Lap. I wont discount the 6.5 Swede as in modern chamberings it should do everything the credemore does, albeit with some discussion surrounding short action stiffness and shoulder dims of the Crede perhaps offering some advantages. I'm not in it for competition and unlikely ever to be, but will be regularly shooting (both in the field and at LR ranges) at extended ranges.

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