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CameronWilson

A lot of S&B PMIIs for sale?

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Well the used value appears to have come down considerably, one just gone for £1500 on this site ,a bargain for someone I'm sure.

Not quite, the turrets didn't match the reticle. Therefore not the desired and coveted mil/mil spec that still commands a steady price.

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Not quite, the turrets didn't match the reticle. Therefore not the desired and coveted mil/mil spec that still commands a steady price.

How very last year :)

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coud be the fact that after 2 years you pay to fix it.. dont get me wrong s&b is a good scope i have x2...but i wont be buying a pm2...

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So comparing an 'established' model of the PM11 with more recent competitors arrivals is a bit pointless as the art and science has moved on. Get their newest version and stand them up together.

 

This ^^

 

I've been fortunate enough for the past 3 years at the IWA to be able to see/help punters look thru' the latest S&B's (I'm nothing to do with S&B btw) and another very nice brand as there is the facility to look thru' them side be side in real (enough) conditions

 

The conclusions I've come to are:

  • If people are honest re. glass it is down to what coatings your eyes like - no clear winner (no pun)
  • People are gullible and will accept a solution to a problem that does not exist as a 'must have'
  • Punters will accept any non validated performance claim without question because brand 'x' says so
  • Folks do not sit down and think about what they really need from a scope and are influenced far too much by things they read (on Snipers Hide! :)
There is nothing at all wrong with S&B scopes or a slew of other makes, you decide what you want and go look thru' the scope before you buy - unless you can afford to blow the sort of money we are talking about on a top line scope that is? (I can't)

 

T

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Good post , of course it makes sense to have a look through any scope that costs an arm and a leg before you cough up, sadly most UK gun shops carry very little stock so its almost impossible to compare them so many of us have to rely on magazine reviews and checking out what mates and club members have .

 

Edit , maybe everyone is getting one of these , the 2018 model will allow you to call in close air support :)

 

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This ^^

 

I've been fortunate enough for the past 3 years at the IWA to be able to see/help punters look thru' the latest S&B's (I'm nothing to do with S&B btw) and another very nice brand as there is the facility to look thru' them side be side in real (enough) conditions

 

The conclusions I've come to are:

  • If people are honest re. glass it is down to what coatings your eyes like - no clear winner (no pun)
  • People are gullible and will accept a solution to a problem that does not exist as a 'must have'
  • Punters will accept any non validated performance claim without question because brand 'x' says so
  • Folks do not sit down and think about what they really need from a scope and are influenced far too much by things they read (on Snipers Hide! :)
There is nothing at all wrong with S&B scopes or a slew of other makes, you decide what you want and go look thru' the scope before you buy - unless you can afford to blow the sort of money we are talking about on a top line scope that is? (I can't)

 

T

 

 

^^^^^^

This

 

Good post.

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They used to be special, they aren't any more. Once the 'snipers use these' fetish has worn off, people soon look towards value for money, customer service and stock availability. I have received 1 of the scopes promised to me over the last 4 years and dont really bother asking anymore as they never seem to have any stock. There are big advertisers though so it makes little sense. The PMII WAS a good step forward but nowadays they offer odd solutions to non existent problems as stated elsewhere. Funnily enough I was using a 3-27 PMII yesterday for some 1000 metre stuff and they are good but windage turret markers are counterintuitive on that one (of the seemingly endless) options they offer. Still, great glass and no problem self spotting 338 splash at 1000 metres on 12-14 power and nice adjustments that honestly match the ffp reticle subtensions. They just want too much money though and I sold all mine a couple of years ago and switched to Minox without any regrets

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Hatzi, dont understand? On the one hand you're saying they are nothing special and then state you were easily spotting splash at 1000 on relatively low power. Which is it.

Maybe s&b are telling you something?

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I looked through my £500.00 Meopta Meopro and my £1200 NightForce SHV today , both set on x 18, the Meopta won for sharpness, the NF had some milkyness,

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They are nothing special, lots of scopes will spot splash under the conditions that day. S&B just have the 'name' and the prices. It WAS all about who was first going to combine Euro glassware with long range mechanics

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Good post , of course it makes sense to have a look through any scope that costs an arm and a leg before you cough up, sadly most UK gun shops carry very little stock so its almost impossible to compare them so many of us have to rely on magazine reviews and checking out what mates and club members have .

 

Edit , maybe everyone is getting one of these , the 2018 model will allow you to call in close air support :)

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGcAqXMRios

Probably overkill...let's hope the pilot has state of the art weaponry guidance-169 metres (the measured range on the shot not taken) is prettty close!

Was shot not taken because of the delay in fiddling with scope?Seems like a job for the ghillie/aka spottter. Luckily an even better one presented...within a few yards it seemed...no distance reading!

I am quite a fan of laser rangefinders in scopes (have two,as well as Leica) but in general,does anyone reaally need a £3000+ scope for a 169m shot (angle of 12 degrees is only a centimeter too)-probably near enough dead on for zeroed distance?

 

Of course,there is an issue for the marketing department (as 'opposed' to the technical department)-stalking in classy set ups isn't usually encouraged at ranges in excess of ,say ,250 yards....it isn't stalking (nor would be the air super strike!)

Perhaps supporting "solution to what problem?"-one of Terry's points-it would be easy to think "Wow!-built in laser"...but is it likey to be the best solution anyhow-in classic accompanied Highland Stalking?

Of course,accurate ranging is essential,once out of 'point blank' range.

 

Very nifty for solitary varminting at distances,though,with a powerful computational engine for the gustimated windage.

 

 

Having stalked on Mull,I have to say they got the weather authentically- some of the £3000 spent on waterproofing would be an alternate investment :-)

 

gbal

 

gbal

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Yes I think the shot at 169m to keep the old school stalkers quiet, I'm sure the sales reps at the Game Fair will tell you 700m shots are now easy and ethical with their new £3k scope.

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Indeed,though they might not emphasis that the target beast would have to be stag-geringly large...which might pose a few issues for the light 6.5s,and a serious ballistic challenge for the 416's. No free (venison) lunch.

 

I can well imagine that some sales reps at the Game Fair see some potential customers as Fair Game.Some might even believe their hype,even underplay it if they think one shot cold bore kills at more than two miles is normal (to switch to a different reality theatre)-maybe a bit off topic,though scopes just have to be precision,as does ranging,there is still a long way to go to get hits at a long way off...King of the 2 Mile Hill, or Monarch of the Glen....

 

Here is the winner's performance at the prestige King of Two Miles comp (which did record the first,and only,hit at 3368y.Distance in yards hits/shots

 

1543: 5/5

1722: 3/3

1888; 3/3

1953; 1/3

2667: 2/5

3028: 2/5

3368; 1/5

 

The winning score was almost twice the second place sciore. 30 competitors.

Rules are -if you strike out at a distance,you're out....

Only one shooter made it to 3368

Nine made it to 2667-the top ten,with 3/50 hits between them (they had 16/45 at 1953)

At 1543,44/150 misses

Some class teams too-winner was one of the Applied Ballistics team,with state of the science ballistic support,and good gats-yet another member was out at 1722

Spotter was Emil Prahlik-one of the very best.

Scopes not reported

 

The one 3368 hit was the very last shot fired.

 

If T Rex is to be reintroduced to Scotland,better start on one of the remoter islands-and fire from an adjacent one. :-)

 

gbal

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I agree it's the SFP and/or MOA that are the slowest to move.

 

If anyone has a SFP and MOA PM2 for sale I'm interested.

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Guys, it seems like everyone are judging the scopes on the clarity of glass and not the accuracy of the turrets or robustness. You need to see the target, agreed, but you also need to hit what you are aiming at if shooting at extended ranges! Your ballistic information from your phone app or other devices might be correct, but if your scope does not track correctly, you can forget about hitting small targets at long ranges with the first round.

 

On laser range finding scopes with ballistic information displayed, I think that is the future. Time sesitive targets at range, shooting at angles and shooting in wind, "normal scopes" will put you at a disadvantage in the field. You have VERY little time fiddling around with information needed before you can be successful with a shot. I am speaking out of experience.

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Putter,I agree-most top/middle scopes do track pretty well-but it is essential at real distance.You just have to rely on reviews-and your own testing,but its way way more criticalthan slight blueV yellow fringing-who actually shoots using the outer edge of scope?

Likewise,a laser ranger within the scope makes ranging accurate,under time pressures-which a separate hand held laser cannot hope to do (unless someone else is calling the readings,and shooter spotter are well synchronised....Displaying a red dot on the vertical to compensate for the range is available (ie the neccessary hold over).-precision depends a bit on the dot size....but were nearly there on that for larger targets,and with good magnification...maybe 20+...?

 

It will however,be quite some time (read: technical breakthrough) to get wind holds displayed anywhere...though of course current scopes can be etched for (say) ten mph wind,giving the 'xmas' tree reticule,or even more complete Horus style-but it's not the measured actual wind...yet....To do that with a calculus of changing winds to target,and the overall/"averaged" wind compensation that needs factoring in....not this year,though probably before we get the near zero wind deflected bullet/cartridge (in a fireable rifle)! :-)

g

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gbal,

 

I think you will be surprised how many high end scopes do not actually track properly. Bryan Litz has done an excellent demonstration of comparing two different high end scopes on YouTube. Worth a watch. The distances that most people shoot at in the UK it will not make a huge difference.

 

David Tubb has also introduced a prism type adapter that fits on the front end of the scope and increases the adjustment on the scope instantly by adding a number of extra range elevation instantly just by adding the device. It is suppose to be very accurate even if you do get the mounting on incorrectly. Therefore if you use a Horus type reticle and you ran out of adjustments, you do not have to power down to see the rest of the reticle. You can will now be able to shoot at a higher magnification at longer range targets. I think David could have introduced it at the last Kof2M competition of 2017 that he took part in. This device could have been used during the recent longest ever sniper kill recently as there is little chance of the operators having enough scope adjustment for that shot....yes, that is right. Only one round......That is a topic for another day......

 

In regards to the laser range finding scopes, Burris have the Eliminator series scopes out on the market for some time now. It is a very good idea and it has been very successful in South Africa where they hunt at extended ranges in the mountains. The scope also automatically adjust for shooting at angles incline or decline - I think up to 45 degrees. It also gives you aim off markers for wind for that cartridge you are shooting by displaying it in the scope as well as obviously instantly displaying your holdover red illuminated dot on the cross hair. BTW I am not working for Burris and I do not promote long range hunting.

 

Limitations are:

 

- Poor mounting system and limited by only mounting it on a 0 MOA picatinny rail.

- Poor optics - not suited for shooting in low light conditions without artificial light.

- A course reticle that will obstruct the target at longer range engagements.

- Does not take into consideration the direction of fire. Not really that important for shorter range engagements.

- If you change your density altitude, you have to do the adjustments yourself during the programming of the scope. Density altitude will change your POI at longer ranges as well.

- A spirit level cannot be mounted on the scope.

 

Everything else about this scope is a move in the right direction in regards to modern technology.

 

Wind is arguably the biggest reason why people miss with their first shot at longer ranges. Some people "calibrate" their senses by practicing reading wind strength by holding a wind meter reader, closing their eyes and guessing what the wind is. When they then open their eyes and see the true reading, they "calibrate" themselves what the actual strength feels like. Of course, reading wind is a massive subject and this method is barely scratching the surface! We all know how complex it is!

 

I apologize. The topics covered in this message should actually have been separate threads . I just got a bit carried away!

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Probably overkill...let's hope the pilot has state of the art weaponry guidance-169 metres (the measured range on the shot not taken) is prettty close!

 

Of course,there is an issue for the marketing department (as 'opposed' to the technical department)-stalking in classy set ups isn't usually encouraged at ranges in excess of ,say ,250 yards....it isn't stalking (nor would be the air super strike!)

 

Well yes, but its getting there.

 

If you are up the hill, most stalkers would achieve a higher percentage of clean kills with a bit of support on the firing solution front. So their precise aim point is going to help even if the adjustment is minimal. We have removed the stalkers guesstimate on range, drop and what that looks like on the beast. That's not worth £3k though.

 

But if the scope can do that why can't it provide a couple of windage marks for say 5, 10 15 mph or something. That's not rocket science to calculate for a 'standard' or bespoke load, but maybe it is to project on the lens.

 

Then we would be getting somewhere. (Still not paying £3k)

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Agreed-windage guidance marks are available on some scopes...usually for one wind speed-10mph. The extreme presentation of this is the 'Xmas tree' reticule...though that is a bit cluttered especially for field use for some,especially as it's only a guide.Usually they use small dots to be clearly distinct from vertical mil/moa hash marks...they can oinly be an approximation of course (as cartridge varies).MIght be a plus for FFP....constant subtension??

Helpful though-a personal choice.Such scopes need not cost £2k-maybe not even half...

 

g

**Next weeks range forecast is good,but only 10-12 mph winds....just enough to flutter the typewitter paper....

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Agreed-windage guidance marks are available on some scopes...usually for one wind speed-10mph. The extreme presentation of this is the 'Xmas tree' reticule...though that is a bit cluttered especially for field use for some,especially as it's only a guide.Usually they use small dots to be clearly distinct from vertical mil/moa hash marks...they can oinly be an approximation of course (as cartridge varies).MIght be a plus for FFP....constant subtension??

Helpful though-a personal choice.Such scopes need not cost £2k-maybe not even half...

 

g

**Next weeks range forecast is good,but only 10-12 mph winds....just enough to flutter the typewitter paper....:-)

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**Next weeks range forecast is good,but only 10-12 mph winds....just enough to flutter the typewitter paper....:-)

 

Ammo loaded just need Landmark to not &^*^* up.

 

ref the 'thread that cannot be mentioned' , stalkers need all the help they can get.

 

Wonder if the Swaro has a knob with a '0' on it ...

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OK...I might bring the 308 Remington (typewriter) that was actually zeroed at 1000y.

And waste the day rezeroing it variously...just to keep an open mind...

g

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