A lot of S&B PMIIs for sale?

[Putter]

Putter,

Do not think anyone is knocking S&B's, they are great scopes.

Think what folks are saying is they are not the king of scopes, just a very good top quality one.

Re. Armed forces using them, true they do, but just because an army buys them does not make them 'it' , military contracts are given for different reasons, we are (predominantly) not military i.e. do not have to use what's issued, so we can choose with our own cash/eyes/needs (delete as necessary)

Would I have a S&B - yes, would I choose an S&B, probably not (FYI I've had a few S&B's previously and they were great).

T

I 100% agree with you. However, some parts of the armed forces can however choose what they want and in the past they still chose S&B after testing multiple other makes. On a negative note I found S&B service not as good as their competitors.

[Gandy]

Slightly off topic but, I wonder if S&B will bring out a new model to put themselves back up there again?

[Scotch_egg]

Slightly off topic but, I wonder if S&B will bring out a new model to put themselves back up there again?

Didn't you watch the video you posted. He referenced the Schmidt 5-45x56 a couple of times. There is also a new reticle to match.

[Tikka4Sika]

Putter,

 

Do not think anyone is knocking S&B's, they are great scopes.

 

Think what folks are saying is they are not the king of scopes, just a very good top quality one.

 

Re. Armed forces using them, true they do, but just because an army buys them does not make them 'it' , military contracts are given for different reasons, we are (predominantly) not military i.e. do not have to use what's issued, so we can choose with our own cash/eyes/needs (delete as necessary)

 

Would I have a S&B - yes, would I choose an S&B, probably not (FYI I've had a few S&B's previously and they were great).

 

T

I think the LR Defender is a good example of that point .

[Gandy]

Didn't you watch the video you posted. He referenced the Schmidt 5-45x56 a couple of times. There is also a new reticle to match.

Touché Mr Egg.

[gbal]

Richard Uttings's review put the 5-25 S&B in a contemporary context-still good,no longer the 'best'.

He specificallly commented on the S&B 12-50,a much improved scope,in his view,and overall comparable to the IOR 12-52,both excellent modern scopes.S&B edges it in optical quality-just-and tolerance of focus-which may/not be important,with IOR just better in mid range....a damn close run thing,overall.

A key word may sum it up...the S&B 5-25 may no longer be so 'aspirational'......

 

On the more general point(no pun intended) the military are not THE criterion for all scope use.

The most striking evidence is to look at what other shooters choose,given a completely free choice....

...Fixed distance competition target shooters go for (SFP) high variable mag,like NightForce or March;Precision Rifle shooters opt for often FFP mid range variable mag (Including S&B,but by no means limited to it). Or Across the course,or CSR ,or stalking,varminting etc etc.

The published gear of the top competitors is revealing-and clearly different for different shooting disciplines-as is all the other gear (rifle/cartidge/rests etc etc).MIlitary rigs are rather conspicuously absent-they have other essential virtues perhaps-like absolute ruggedness,rather than ultimate precision...whatever....Some remain 'aspirational' as well as very good,but what is 'aspirational' varies,rightly so- especially if you hope for successes...at most levels...then 'appropriate to discipline" functionaality cannot be neglected.

 

All that said,an 'old' S&B 5-25 is hardly ever a handicap,it's just no longer universal cutting edge for all uses.

Probably,no one scope can be.

 

gbal

[VarmLR]

I'm not sure that I agree gbal. Military scopes aren't just limited to the "toughness" requirement at all. There are many aspects required of military scopes that fall precisely into the same camp that makes a good precision target scope. They tend to be more ruggedised for obvious reasons, but also tend to choose scopes with specific lens coatings (colour/contrast rendition as well as toughness), they certainly do require high levels of repeatable precision so everything from the turret design to the internal lens groups and mechanics have to be spot on. They have to be operated in all weather conditions and sometimes at night. Large turrets, zero-stops etc are favoured and they also use scopes with a lot of internal adjustment so tend to pick 34mm or larger scope bodies, although some still use 30mm bodies. In fact, the only thing that separates them really from LR target shooter requirements tend to be things like the additional ruggedness needed.

 

Arguably, many military scopes don't need the large zoom ratios or even the higher magnifications of some precision rifle shooters' scopes. Many still use fiixed 10 or 12x scopes, but most USA and UK forces do seem to still prefer the S&B PM2 over older fixed mag scopes.

 

There's a new kid on the block in recent years, in the new range of Steiner Military scopes. They also seem excellent by all accounts and would also make super LR scopes for less money than the top PM2 scopes.

[gbal]

.."They have other essential virtues (NOTE PLURAL) ..like absolute ruggedness (JUST ONE EXAMPLE-thread isn't about military requirements,but I agree with you about such requirements...not that the S&B is general issue....

That agreed,it is unlikely that 'extra ruggedness' is putting Precision Rifle shooters off unduly-theirs is a dynamic discipline with a fair bit of non gentle use-not extreme,agreed...and S&B 5-25 are used,but no longer overwhelmingly. LR target shooters usually want more mag,for occasions that allow its use,and -as I suggested-a look at results in say 1000Y competitions will show sime variety of scopes-rather than dominance of any one (specifically,not S&B 5-25).

Somewhat speculative,but I'd imagine the 12-50 new S&B might have more takers,in pure scope terms-the bigger mag helps,especially if Sharpshooter is correct,that it is a genuine 12 -50 with minimal drop off at extremes-but there is some competition.

 

Just for fun,the AI isn't the rifle of choice in either discipline,compared to the custom actions/barrels...but this does not diminish it's 'aspirational' status for some civilians, or substantial,probably unsurpassed military virtues-it's maybe the best specialst military rig (with the S&B 5-25/or update that retains all the military desiderata) but LRBR/Fopen etc are not military clone disciplines,anymore that the SA80 or indeed AR15 clones are used in 100-300 Bench Rest shooting (with fixed up to 45x scope- ,often Leupolds)-the CSR shooters of course choose the AR base design in man op form,though choice isn't quite 'open'-and it is a good choice-for that comp.

The S&B 5-25 is a very fine scope-it may not be the best choice for all shooters-and clearly that is just what many very competent shooters decide,and choose otherwise. Individual preferences,by all means-I'd like an outdated S&B 5-25 (in FFP!even mils!!),but it would cost 3 good Leupolds,or at least two good NFs,and I try hard not to drive over my scopes.Given use,it would be dubious value-I'm sure I'd like it a lot,though.

Just for light relief,as it's not a good comparison, I doubt that many drive a military Jeep,or Centurion tank either....or their contemporary replacements....that is no criticism.

Tesco car park is not a regular combat zone.....: It might,alas,still be 'aspirational'.... Or is that Sainsbury's... :-)

 

g

[VarmLR]

I agree gbal, hence the comment about Steiner, who are just one amongst many manufacturers now fielding a scope likely as good as the S&B. The military tend to work on a gearing and rapid change is seldom seen as extensive trials are used by units to determine what they want to use. S&B remains on their top spot it seems for now because if it "ain't broke, why fix it?". The vanity of shooters and search for the newest best thing though tends to drive competition and there does seem to be a healthy variety used by the top contenders these days. That's got to be a good thing for all of us long term.

[brown dog]

I think the LR Defender is a good example of that point .

- very true!

 

Just to be a pedant:

 

The PM2 isn't a military scope; clue's in the 'P'.

The MK2, however...

[MrCetrizine]

I thought PM was police & military or am I mixing that up with Smith & Wesson's M&P?

[VarmLR]

- very true!

 

Just to be a pedant:

 

The PM2 isn't a military scope; clue's in the 'P'.

The MK2, however...

 

 

I thought that "PM" stood for "Police & Military Forces"?

 

The difference between the LR analogy and the PM one is that some military sniper units actually get a say in what scope they want to use...or at least used to.

[gbal]

Received 11.01,today ,reply to email on topic,to Schmidt und Bender:

 

Dear Mr B,

The abbreviation PM11 stands for Police Military 11.

 

Mit Freundliche Grussen,

Christian Krug

Productfrage,www.schmidtbender.de

 

 

FWIW-not much,eine kleine nachtsmusic,peutre etre?- this tends to confirm the labelling of the product as some have suggested,perhaps indicting marketing. It does not though,establish the 5-25 sccope as a 'Milirary' scope,so Brown Dog has a point too ("Hensold" may be a clearer military contract marker...but again,not definitive.) It does seem to be agreed that the scope is used by "the military".....macht's nicht,gut genuch.

 

Does it matter-the Walther PP-K saga was similarly 'debated' -is the "K" short for 'Kurz" (="short",which it was,or "K" (for Kriminale...ie issued to some special Police units)....Both descriptions had some plausibility,and it may never have been resolved...

 

MrB

[brown dog]

Received 11.01,today ,reply to email on topic,to Schmidt und Bender:

Dear Mr B,

The abbreviation PM11 stands for Police Military 11.

Mit Freundliche Grussen,

Christian Krug

Productfrage,www.schmidtbender.de

FWIW-not much,eine kleine nachtsmusic,peutre etre?- this tends to confirm the labelling of the product as some have suggested,perhaps indicting marketing. It does not though,establish the 5-25 sccope as a 'Milirary' scope,so Brown Dog has a point too ("Hensold" may be a clearer military contract marker...but again,not definitive.) It does seem to be agreed that the scope is used by "the military".....macht's nicht,gut genuch.

Does it matter-the Walther PP-K saga was similarly 'debated' -is the "K" short for 'Kurz" (="short",which it was,or "K" (for Kriminale...ie issued to some special Police units)....Both descriptions had some plausibility,and it may never have been resolved...

MrB

Did you really email S&B to ask that?!

Jeezus H.

 

PM stands, or stood until a rebrand that must be about 10 minutes old, for Police Marksman.

 

If they've recently re-invented the acronym for marketing purposes that's fine, but the military version is the MK2, and has differences such as laser coatings.

[GarethM]

Did you really email S&B to ask that?!

Jeezus H.

You can take the man out academia, but ...

[gbal]

Gareth,that's how we get in....:-)....of course,one can get by here as elsewhere,with Hitchin:"That which is asserted without evidence,may be dismissed without evidence". But then no-one gets anywhere (and indeed,both might be wrong!)

And ,if to a different manner/Ivory Tower born/bred,it is somewhat unsatisfactory/boring even...

 

In this case,it hardly matters (to be Kurt and Kourteous).

 

 

If opinion has changed changed in the last ten minutes.......

 

...but what's this,Federer on court........got to go.... :-)

[VarmLR]

Did you really email S&B to ask that?!

Jeezus H.

 

PM stands, or stood until a rebrand that must be about 10 minutes old, for Police Marksman.

 

If they've recently re-invented the acronym for marketing purposes that's fine, but the military version is the MK2, and has differences such as laser coatings.

 

 

It appears that might be the case having just looked at their website:

 

http://www.schmidtundbender.de/en/products/police-and-military-forces.html

 

 

You're right....the Mk2 was the old name for the Military version. They have some re-branded models, some now with extra digital bells and whistles and now, for ultra-long distance sniping, this:

 

http://www.schmidtundbender.de/en/products/police-and-military-forces/3-27x56-pm-ii-high-power.html

 

....although you'll need deep pockets at £4K or so

[gbal]

"Dear George,

We also use Police Marksman 11 as a detailed explanation."

 

(S&B marketing,as before)

 

Sometimes asking twice helps (reliability,maybe validity) ...I was going to ask why it's not in German,but ...you know what....it's like,I mean,how much detailed explanation do we need...

As per Varm's second reference..more models were developed at USSOCOM'S request,and these are listed under the General heading "Police and Military Forces" and include several 5-25x56 PM2 models (digital;LP; LPMTC/LT)...

 

 

"A rose by any other name..........." Just as true in Latin/German/English words and digits.

 

 

 

Herr B

[Tikka4Sika]

Good posts George.

[gbal]

Danke-I'm more a Night Force user myself,but have some mil dot Leupolds (which sounds a bit germanic)....all in an afternoon's research....much helped by colleagues,as credited/mentioned.....thanks to Federer getting through early...

 

PM2 be ..or not PM11 be... was the question...

 

G

[brown dog]

..I was going to ask why it's not in German,but ...you know what....

 

'Polizeischarfschuetze' - a real marketing challenge outside Germany!

[gbal]

'Polizeischarfschuetze' - a real marketing challenge outside Germany!

PS

 

(Just an afterthought :-)

[brown dog]

PS

(Just an afterthought :-)

Ha! Very droll!

[Tikka4Sika]

Well the used value appears to have come down considerably, one just gone for £1500 on this site ,a bargain for someone I'm sure.

[Chanonry]

Danke-I'm more a Night Force user myself,but have some mil dot Leupolds (which sounds a bit germanic)....all in an afternoon's research....much helped by colleagues,as credited/mentioned.....thanks to Federer getting through early...

 

PM2 be ..or not PM11 be... was the question...

 

G

 

Mit Freundliche Grüßen eh

 

at least they omitted the Kussen bit,

 

I get the post, I like his postings, enjoyed the one about 'real time wind'.

 

I felt this one was a bit like the bullet debates, comparing the latest yeeha offering with an old model leads to ludicrous claims that a 260 is 'better than' a 300WM whatever that means. So comparing an 'established' model of the PM11 with more recent competitors arrivals is a bit pointless as the art and science has moved on. Get their newest version and stand them up together.

 

Anybody seen an impartial review of the Swaro dS ?? Looks ideal for the infrequent shooter. Big price though, but I guess it is cheap as it cuts out the learning curve the rest of us have had to go up.