Hare Head Damage (What Bullet)

[njc110381]

The problem for me here is that you're after a bullet for foxing and to cleanly head shoot hares. That in my mind isn't possible, or at least you won't find one that is good for both. You want expansion on foxes and lack of for hares.

 

If I had to choose a bullet it would be something that didn't expand that quickly. Something designed for small deer rather than varmint use. That, I would hope, would only start to really open up after passing a couple of inches of tissue. Great for fox, but through the hare before any real expansion is seen.

 

I'm talking strictly from a theoretical point of view. I've never done it. I'd rather blow it's head off and lose a few pence if that meant my foxing rig worked better.

[Boydy47]

On a personal level the line was made crystal clear. Maybe because I was shown the 'old-school' way and, listened to the advice of folk who had controlled fox for many years before me and who were kind enough to pass on their knowledge and experience(s) of what was more likely to be consistently effective and, what sometimes was just too much of a risk

 

This advice was given a long time ago and I've never had a problem culling fox with regards to the distinction of ammo used.

 

Expanding = on all live quarry and paper punching...... non-expanding = paper punching

 

Each to their own

 

I don't think we're disagreeing on that point but expanding used to be fairly easily defined in law as it was any bullet classed as section 5, there are plenty of 'target' bullets that expand equally as violently as varmint bullets, if you're classing those as expanding then we probably agree.

 

Other than the assertion that there is a legal requirement to use expanding on game other than deer and possibly seals because I don't think there is one; there is a moral one though and that is probably more important!!

[Boydy47]

That's a good one. Armour Piercing Incendiary anyone? Spotting? Etc.

Quite a LOT of Section 5 ammo is flashy fizzy gassy burny military/police issue stuff. ...so NOT really meant for anything like expanding, .though the 12-bore fragmentation grenades DO expand fairly effectively. Wonder of they're back on Section 1 now too?

Ok, maybe not quite 'ANY' bullet, but you know what I meant.......

[VarmLR]

I think that it boils down to interpretation. It isn't just the firearms Act we're governed by but also the Wildlife and Countryside Act, and some authorities consider that the use of anything other than expanding may be deemed as inhumane, plus the police I think would look unfavourable at anyone using say FMJ ammo from a centrefire for hunting due to the increased richochet risk.

 

Whetever the interpretation or whatever the distinction between HO guidance and Law, I agree with Snakemen here that keep non-expanding for the range and use expanding for hunting. It doesn't need to be explosively frangible, but controlled expansion for the task in hand. I agree though that there are some (previously non S5) target rounds that make excellent vermin control rounds including Amax and TMKs and I see nothing wrong in their use for vermin control. They are, by their very construction, frangible. SMKs on the other hand, are not and their use could just as easily result in a clean drill through because the point with such rounds used on quarry species is that they're unpredictable, therefor unreliable and inhumane. As for those considering head shots on hare, SPs do it well enough. Butchers and game handlers have to expect that a shot animal won't always look like it's just run out of breath...it's been shot! It's normal to dress Hare and Rabbit rather than sell to the public in the fur anyway.

[17 Rem]

I agree that a safe, humane kill should be strived for. But the fact remains that your earlier assertation that "it isn't legal to shoot Hare (or any other game) with non-expanding bullets" was wrong.

[VarmLR]

It's just a matter of interpretation on certificate conditions which I appreciate may vary.

[Boydy47]

Out of interest how is your condition regarding worded? Generally conditions seem pretty clear on what they mean, just some of them are daft!

 

As for FMJ and safety issues that depends entirely on the ground, I do load testing in the same area that I shoot vermin and don't worry about ricochets due to the topography and soil type plus you ant rely on frangibility of a bullet for safety in the first place. What if an FMJ is the most accurate bullet, what's the difference on ground game headshots at 100-200 yards with a CF and a rabbit head shot at 30 with a .177 sub 12 air rifle? Both will drill through the head, or are all air rifle shooters doing something wrong?

[VarmLR]

Mine is simply worded that for estate management, vermin and other lawful wildlife control, the ammunition relating to the certificate, viz a viz, expanding, is to be used. I won't use FMJ under any circumstances as on my land where there are public footpaths within a few hundred meters, an FMJ passing through has the potential to ricochet plus I don't deem them as humane unless a bona fida guaranteed headshot can be taken. At the ranges I shoot at (to 400 yards) a headshot on a rabbit or hare is effectively a 1 inch kill zone, or at least 2 inches with disruption from the shot close to the brain and that means consistently shooting 1/2moa at those distances in the field which isn't possible with my rifle and FMJ ammo. At 200 yards maybe. I use TMK69 grain bullets, 60 grain V-max or 55 grain SGKs (the latter dont make that much of a mess at all). The TMKs shoot 1/2 moa on a good day at 400, or moa on an average day. (me being the variable). Throw in a gusting breeze and that accuracy is out the window. For 100 to 150 yard shooting, the 55 grain smks loaded to around 3200 fps or the 60gr Vmax loaded to 3140 fps are what I use. Both give about 3/4 moa in my rifle.

[Boydy47]

Just went to check my expanding condition and remembered, after the recent law change the expanding ammunition condition was removed when I did the last variation!

[Edinburgh Rifles]

It's just a matter of interpretation on certificate conditions which I appreciate may vary.

 

 

The mere mention of expanding ammunition on your FAC is to allow you to use an otherwise (previously) restricted bullet.

The inclusion on your FAC is detailing what you can use it for

 

it is not detailing that is the ONLY thing you CAN do with it or that you can ONLY use expanding on game/quarry etc

 

big difference in wording

 

Amax in .224 work very well and on some quarry arguably better than VMax

 

any .17/22rf or cf bullet will work on a hare

 

I have shot them with a .17M2 and .22WMR with excellent results