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1000y load


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Hello

 

I'm after advice on a 1000y load. I have a semi custom T3 .308 26'' sassen heavy barrel 1:10 twist. New to reloading. I've developed a hunting load, N140 43.4g 165SST, which seems to be working well. I'd like to develope a load to get me to accurately hit steel at 1000y + I currently use lapua brass with CCI large rifle primers and N140 powder.

 

I was thinking of using SMK 175g bullets (Just because they regularly pop up on forums as being good) Berger bullet also appeal to me. I wanted to try Varget powder but difficult to get hold of so would like to use a more Readly available powder. I was thinking N150. Obviously I'll do my load dev, just after good accurate load combinations and wondering what people are using.

 

Cheers.

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The 175gn SMK works, but is getting short of legs at 1,000 yards from a 26-inch barrel as its BC is a bit on the low side by today's standards. (The US forces use this bullet in the M118LR 7.62 sniper round at a nominal MV of just over 2,600 fps. The US Army says it's a 1,000 yard capable round; the US Marine Corps disagrees and its snipers say performance falls off a cliff at around 800 metres, ie 900 yards. That agrees with my own findings on using this bullet at 1,000 many years ago.)

 

The 185gn Berger BT 'Juggernaut' is the easiest combination to get to work for you, but there are other options with so many companies having introduced new and improved bullets over the last couple of years. Viht N150 is an excellent match for it. Avoid VLDs and VLD type bullets - good BCs, but usually tricky to tune.

 

A cheaper but not as good alternative to the 185 Berger is the ancient 190gn Sierra MK. It has a relatively low BC, but compensates with very good manners in transonic speeds and the subsonic transition, so works better at very long ranges than it should.

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Have you tried the 175TMK yet Laurie?

 

No, there are too many new designs around to try them all. I only rarely shoot 308 anyway these days. I have used the 160gn 7mm TMK in 7mm-08 and been impressed - now adopted it in my 'standard' mid-range loading. I'll try the 130gn 6.5 TMK shortly too and see how it and the new 130gn Berger AR-Hybrid Tactical OTM perform.

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The 175gn SMK works, but is getting short of legs at 1,000 yards from a 26-inch barrel as its BC is a bit on the low side by today's standards. (The US forces use this bullet in the M118LR 7.62 sniper round at a nominal MV of just over 2,600 fps. The US Army says it's a 1,000 yard capable round; the US Marine Corps disagrees and its snipers say performance falls off a cliff at around 800 metres, ie 900 yards. That agrees with my own findings on using this bullet at 1,000 many years ago.)

 

The 185gn Berger BT 'Juggernaut' is the easiest combination to get to work for you, but there are other options with so many companies having introduced new and improved bullets over the last couple of years. Viht N150 is an excellent match for it. Avoid VLDs and VLD type bullets - good BCs, but usually tricky to tune.

 

A cheaper but not as good alternative to the 185 Berger is the ancient 190gn Sierra MK. It has a relatively low BC, but compensates with very good manners in transonic speeds and the subsonic transition, so works better at very long ranges than it should.

 

 

Beardog,

 

Great advice above from Laurie. I use the 190's in a 24 inch barrel, and have been impressed with them to 600 (but will be using them for 900 too). The only thing that I've found (and Laurie mentioned it to me as something to check and batch for) is that the 190 production isn't up there to the same QC standards as more modern bullets, possibly because the dies used in manufacture just aren't precise enough, or are pretty worn! The base to Ogive measurement varies a lot. In several batches, mine have differed by as much as .010". Other than that, I've found it very accurate with N140 (N150 better) at 600.

 

The TMKs have a better BC and certainly in .223, I've found way less batch inconsistency and they have proved very accurate in that rifle. I reckon if you can't get hold of the 185 Berger, the new 175 TMK would be a really good shout, although there is rather a premium to pay over the older 190's (part of the reason that I still use them!).

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Beardog,

 

Great advice above from Laurie. I use the 190's in a 24 inch barrel, and have been impressed with them to 600 (but will be using them for 900 too). The only thing that I've found (and Laurie mentioned it to me as something to check and batch for) is that the 190 production isn't up there to the same QC standards as more modern bullets, possibly because the dies used in manufacture just aren't precise enough, or are pretty worn! The base to Ogive measurement varies a lot. In several batches, mine have differed by as much as .010". Other than that, I've found it very accurate with N140 (N150 better) at 600.

 

The TMKs have a better BC and certainly in .223, I've found way less batch inconsistency and they have proved very accurate in that rifle. I reckon if you can't get hold of the 185 Berger, the new 175 TMK would be a really good shout, although there is rather a premium to pay over the older 190's (part of the reason that I still use them!).

 

In my experience the 175g SMK is top-notch with N150 up to mid-range distances.. (can't speak for further distance)...But as Varm finds with the 190g SMK, the 175g SMK too can have up to 10thou discrepancies from BTO measurement. (in the batches I've had)

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Really great replies thanks a lot guys! Some great info. Already ordered the 185 Bergers from Dolphine Gun Company. Just need to find some N150. I looked up the 175TMK and they have some great reviews too. I'm down south no decent reloading shops around here. Trying to work up some loads I can always get hold of. Just sat out for Mr Charlie wish me luck.

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Well I couldn't get any N150 or SMK anywhere near me. So I've gone for 185 Berger Juggernaut and varget. Does anyone have any load data in this combination please. Obviously I will work out my max pressures. Just loading up some cases this morning. The Berger book puts max load at 41.6g for a 185 bullet with varget. The Hodgdon website puts max pressure at 45g for a 180g bullet and 44 for a 190g bullet. They don't list a 185. I was taught to go with powder load data over the bullet load data but in this case the bullet maxload is lower so perhaps I'll work up to 41.6? However I see on forums like this that 43-44g of varget is often the sweet spot With the 308. Thanks.

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Hi Beardog.

If you can't get N150, have you considered RS powders? Cheaper than American powders but very good nonetheless. For heavier .308 bullets have a look at RS60 (nitroglycerine infused) or even RS62 which I'm considering for 175 SMK's, 178 Amax's as well as the heavy (180 grn+) bullets for my .284 win barrel - very good pressures & won't burn your throat out!

Cheers.

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Hi Ezmobile. No I hadn't considered the powder you mention but I'll bear it in mind thanks. One reason for the Bergers was they can be posted. It's a real pain trying to find a good shop with plenty of stock never mind one that's near me. Only heard good things about the Amax. I use SST for my hunting load which I'm pleased with.

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Hi Beardog.

If you can't get N150, have you considered RS powders? Cheaper than American powders but very good nonetheless. For heavier .308 bullets have a look at RS60 (nitroglycerine infused) or even RS62 which I'm considering for 175 SMK's, 178 Amax's as well as the heavy (180 grn+) bullets for my .284 win barrel - very good pressures & won't burn your throat out!

Cheers.

 

 

RS52 is a much better fit for 308 in RS powders, especially at the heavier end of the spectrum, ie 185-200gn. RS52 loads are exceptionally close to those using Varget, albeit with RS52 offering a shade more velocity. However, RS52 is significantly cheaper and generally more consistently available than Varget.

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Hiya.

Yes, I used RS52 in my target rifle for a couple of years. My set up was with a 32" barrel 1:12 twist. I was using exactly 46 grains of RS52 to drive Sierra 155's MK's (2156's) to 3000 fps, sat about 10 thou off the lands. No pressure signs at all. But...its a high energy powder, like Vit's 500 series or RS60, so there may possibly be an issue with barrel life.

From now on, when using the heavier bullets, I intend to use a slower, cooler burning single based powder like Vit N150 or RS62, though I think that may be best if you have a long barrel to accelerate them up to an acceptable MV.

No doubt people with much more knowledge than I can say if I'm talking cobblers or not, and if so, I'll doff my cap to that.

Laurie, over to you mate!

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The initial question was in relation to a 26'' barrel. If he wants to reach out to 1000yds with it, there is likely to be a price to pay in terms of barrel life.

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Really great replies thanks. Lots to think about. 1000y is a project been working on for a while. Pressure testing this weekend and then I'll try some loads out. I'm hoping the zero will be the same at a hundred yards as what my scope is already zeroed for. Can't imagine it will be far out. If its high I can work with that. I see on here people have different loads for different ranges 300, 600 and 1000. Do most people have different rifles or different scopes. Just wondering what people do at bisley etc. I joined last summer haven't actually gone yet. Must do so soon.

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Really great replies thanks. Lots to think about. 1000y is a project been working on for a while. Pressure testing this weekend and then I'll try some loads out. I'm hoping the zero will be the same at a hundred yards as what my scope is already zeroed for. Can't imagine it will be far out. If its high I can work with that. I see on here people have different loads for different ranges 300, 600 and 1000. Do most people have different rifles or different scopes. Just wondering what people do at bisley etc. I joined last summer haven't actually gone yet. Must do so soon.

 

 

I shot my 24 inch .308 at 984 yds today using N140 and SMK 190s. It surprisingly turned out to be a good combination (I had my doubts) and most ended up in the black with a fair few V-bulls in the mix. It was my first outing at this distance and in variable conditions, shot moa, so if you have some N140 and want to work a load up, you may find that the transonic-friendly 190SMKs or even the 175s will work well with it.

 

I wasn't driving mine especially hard, and needed a good amount of elevation, which worked out at 11.6 Milliradians which is about 39.9 MOA or a whopping 411 inches elevation! My MV was initially measured at 2501fps at 13 degrees. Today it struggled to get to 10 degrees and using the calibration facility in Strlock Pro, this equates to an actual MV of 2491fps using the G7 of .268. Point is, it wasn't a barrel-burning load and the bullet remained very stable even though terminal velocity would have been no more than about 1170fps.

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I shot my 24 inch .308 at 984 yds today using N140 and SMK 190s. It surprisingly turned out to be a good combination (I had my doubts) and most ended up in the black with a fair few V-bulls in the mix. It was my first outing at this distance and in variable conditions, shot moa, so if you have some N140 and want to work a load up, you may find that the transonic-friendly 190SMKs or even the 175s will work well with it.

 

I wasn't driving mine especially hard, and needed a good amount of elevation, which worked out at 11.6 Milliradians which is about 39.9 MOA or a whopping 411 inches elevation! My MV was initially measured at 2501fps at 13 degrees. Today it struggled to get to 10 degrees and using the calibration facility in Strlock Pro, this equates to an actual MV of 2491fps using the G7 of .268. Point is, it wasn't a barrel-burning load and the bullet remained very stable even though terminal velocity would have been no more than about 1170fps.

 

VarmLR. Just out of curiosity, what rifling twist have you got on that 24 in barrel mate?

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Sorry VarmLR, I messed up my last message.

I was just interested to know what is the rifling twist on your 24" barrel?

 

Cheers mate

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Well I loaded one round from 43g up to 45g in two grain increments. No over pressure indicators till I got to 44.2g. I noticed a small circle of the ejector mark I think it is on the base of the case, but I've noticed that with factory ammo. I didn't have that mark on every round after that. No stiff bolt release or flattened primers at all. I didn't noticed more power by the time I got to 45g. I was going to do a ladder test but ended up with a 1 inch ragged hole with the 45g round deciding to go just out side that group. They had the same zero as my scope, be it half inch right. Perhaps I should of done the ladder test at over 100y. Think I'm going to say my max is 44.5g. Next I'll load up 5 batches of 5 rounds at 43, 43.3, 43.6, 43.9 and 44.2. I suspect they will all make a sub inch group, so perhaps I'll try them at 200y. I loaded 010' of the lands.

 

Sound like a plan?

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If you're getting ejector marks, they're still signs of pressure but instead of over-pressure, can be signs of failure to properly obturate due to traces of oil in the chamber. I've had this in the past. Try cleaning the chamber out with a clean mop and some meths, and repeat the loads where you had ejector marks. Just a thought.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Another quick question. Settled on 44.2g of Varget for my load. The Bergers are shooting very well. I'm Sure if you took out my human errors they would shoot just one perfect hole. Next was going to try different seating depths. Currently seated at 010 of the lands. Was going to try .040, .080 and .120 off the lands. If I do this at 100y I don't think I'm going to see much difference. What's a good distance to see any benefits of seating depth?

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Why do this? If it's grouping acceptably, don't play with seating depths. 40 thou' and upwards are far too large jumps for this bullet anyway. You want to get some match time / mid to long range practice in now rather than wearing your barrel out and using up £0.50 + bullets at 100 yards. Shooting at 300 and upwards under match conditions will tell you how the loading performs in real life and will give you invaluable experience in wind-reading.

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Just trying to get the most out of my bullet, trying different things, see what works and what doesn't. The above idea was from the Berger website. Im not a match shooter, just trying to make the best round I can for my 1000y + project. Cheers

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Laurie is right. If you have found a load which groups well, leave it at that. Fiddling with seating depths may affect barrel time and all you'll achieve at most is to find another, similar node which produces equally tight groups (ie where's the advantage?). Your velocities may vary slightly. Learning to read wind will affect your longer distance shooting far more. As suggested, why not just stick to your developed load and now go and shoot at longer distances. Doing anything else just seems like a waste of time and money and you won't be developing your shooting skills any further.

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