Weight Saving - discuss

[ejg223]

In the last few years I had four similar rifles at similar weights. All ended up around 12.5lbs including scope moderator and bipod. If I would have chosen the lightest components from each rifle one could possibly save close to 2lbs.

For me a PMII or Kahles 624i is a must, so that stays. Moderator is a must, so 200-300grams. Harris is also a must for me. That's already 4lbs.

The first rifle I put together was remmy actioned 308 with AI mag system, Med Palma Bartlein at 20". Very light 800gram stock and 200 gram Roedale mod made up for the slightly heavier barrel.

Second rifle a T3 with a 22" FTR Lilja barrel, fitted to a super light 780 gram stock was similar overall.

Third a CTR in a heavier Mil spec stock 1100 grams heavier Spuhr mount lighter Ultra Short all added up similar to the first two.

My last also a CTR in a standard ~900 gram stock weighs 3.5kg as a bare rifle which is the same weight as a Mauser stalking rifle. No matter which way one looks at it one would not save a huge amount if one wants a tactical style stock with adjustable cheek, a semi weight barrel and a good mag system.

Overall my two CTR's are printing around 1/4" 3 shot groups (several) with Hornady 168gr. match ammo but I would still prefer the Lilja or Bartlein Barrelled semi customs. They printed even tighter and seemed a bit better with a hot barrel at longer ranges. As well as Tikka barrels being very slow with factory ammo.

 

Rifle one, remmy, med palma Bartlein

 

 

 

Rifle 2, T3 Lilja 22"

 

 

 

3, CTR, mil spec stock. Spike taken off-hand 100m

 

 

 

4, CTR I use at the moment.

 

 

 

edi

[gazzarM1]

Buy a Ruger Scout in 308 ?

All up weight with my Meopta x18 scope and a full 5 round mag is under by a tad 9 pounds.

Sub .75 moa out of the box .You could bed it perhaps to see if you can squeeze a bit more out of the 18 " barrel.

My go to rig for Deer for the last few years and very happy with it.

Before that a Heym 243 a real lightweight ,sorry I sold it....

[MJR]

Ronin, you're beating yourself up pal. You know you have already built the rifle you require multiple times - T3, 6.5x47 lapua, 20" barrel, 5 rd mag, an Etac (or similar stock) and moderator of your choice. Scope to suit(PMII).

Ultimately as robust as an AX? no definitely not but it will perform with excellent accuracy, good balance and be lighter.

Happy New Year

[Gandy]

A confesssion before I type, I own an AI.

 

However, I see this more as bradders does and came to shooting an AI having stalked for a long time prior to shooting at longer ranges.

 

My stalking rifle is very light weight and I use it for the hill and lowland woodland stalking. It's basic, unmoderated not has a muzzle break to retain its light weight. It has a fixed power 8x56 scope which is also light weight.

 

It also has relatively stout recoil being a 30-06 and very light weight, so becomes quite frankly unpleasant if shooting frequently over a short space of time.

 

It boils down to what you know and like but, particularly for woodland stalking I find it's just more pointable and portable. It's extremely rare to shoot over 200 yards but have shot to 300 on paper to an acceptable accuracy for deer.

 

I suppose my point is, if an AI is one end of the scale in terms of a rifle for stalking, I personally, chose to make sure my other rifle is at the opposite end of the scale.

 

Hope that helps for what it's worth.

[MJR]

Edi, your CTR looks just about perfect imho.

[Gandy]

Out of curiosity just weighed my rifle which is 8.5lbs all in.

 

A confesssion before I type, I own an AI.

However, I see this more as bradders does and came to shooting an AI having stalked for a long time prior to shooting at longer ranges.

My stalking rifle is very light weight and I use it for the hill and lowland woodland stalking. It's basic, unmoderated not has a muzzle break to retain its light weight. It has a fixed power 8x56 scope which is also light weight.

It also has relatively stout recoil being a 30-06 and very light weight, so becomes quite frankly unpleasant if shooting frequently over a short space of time.

It boils down to what you know and like but, particularly for woodland stalking I find it's just more pointable and portable. It's extremely rare to shoot over 200 yards but have shot to 300 on paper to an acceptable accuracy for deer.

I suppose my point is, if an AI is one end of the scale in terms of a rifle for stalking, I personally, chose to make sure my other rifle is at the opposite end of the scale.

Hope that helps for what it's worth.

[Ronin]

Happy New Year to all by the way,

 

 

Yes its a good thread and nice to see everyone contributing positively.

 

 

Mike, yes, I know ive built numerous stunningly accurate T3's, but I want AW mag feed - something that the T3 wont manage, and thats an absolute must given some of the areas I conduct culling where it isnt unusual to take 8 plus in a single sitting...and have to insert another mag...

 

Regardless of the AX's accuracy potential, I still do stalk into animals where possible and practicable.

 

 

Regarding the Borden's close tolerances - youd be surprised how tight my AX is - certainly isnt sloppy and I ran a BAT repeater several years ago, which I really regret selling as that was pretty much perfect (the only "issue" being it used AICS mags and the 10 round mags are plain ungainly from prone)

 

 

I guess if I could put the AX into an Etac stock, that is what id do.

 

 

But I can't without making a bespoke lower action fixture and bottom metal inserted into that, which isnt feasible.

 

 

Sorry, the Rem, Howa, Ruger factory rifles just not for me.

[brown dog]

 

I guess if I could put the AX into an Etac stock, that is what id do.

 

 

But I can't without making a bespoke lower action fixture and bottom metal inserted into that, which isnt feasible.

 

 

Andy, you've said that before (when I was thinking the same way about 5 years ago! ) I can't see why just about any AICS bottom metal wouldn't work; case in point the Badger AW-a-alike:

 

The key negative to such a setup is that unless you glue the action to the stock a la AW, you've just got any other rifle. The only constraint to gluing it permanently is trigger access - you'd need to be able to remove the trigger from below, without removing the action from the stock - just an inletting issue I'd have thought?

[Treedave]

 

Borden Mountaineer Action - AW mag (sub 2lbs)

 

PSE E-Tac 3 stock (sub 2lbs))

 

Fluted 20" Med Palma Barrel (4lbs)

 

Trigger - upper end

That seems a familiar list!

 

If weight is your real enemy, have you considered talking to Borden about a Ti version of the mountaineer (as per several of their other actions), that's a 1/2 lb trimmed off but at a painful cost.

 

No doubt you have your barrel carefully picked out, assuming bottomless pockets, why not a carbon wrapped barrel?

 

How about improving an existing set up? Engineer a AW mag solution for the DTA covert, it's about 9lbs in 308 format (then you could tweak mine!). It's only the feed ramps and a replacement for part of the skins to retain the mag, should only take you a weekend

[Tikka4Sika]

4.75 pounds* http://newultralightarms.com/?page_id=10 , not what the OP asked for but impressive all the same.

[terryh]

Andy,

 

How about adding the Pierce Ti action into your mix, this shaves the action down to 17oz.

 

Use a cartridge that works for your ranges in an 18" barrel perhaps?

 

Might as well go the whole hog!

 

T

 

Ps or you could take a different approach, keep some of the weight in the rifle and buy a lighter set of boots = less 'work' performed during the day out

[Breacher]

It seems to me that taking dèer is done in one of two ways - stalking to close range or remaining in a vantage point and taking the shot at longer range.

 

One requires a light rifle ideally whereas a heavier more precise rifle is better suited to the other.

 

Why not choose a method and choose the best rifle for that method ?

[baldie]

I've built a few stalking rifles of late Andy, that have sort of, crossed over.

 

The last was a borden alpine in a game scout with a varmint weight fluted barrel. It weighed 7 3/4 Lbs.

 

Another one sat in the safe [ customer awaiting ticket ] is a Deviant with a rem varmint profile barrel, but helically fluted.

 

I think that removes more steel personally.

 

Its sat in one of edit,s E-tac stocks, and its seriously light.

 

If you want AW mag feed, you are going to have to go with a "tactical" action with integral rail.

 

Shave the stock, flute it, and shave the mounts/scope.

[Grum87]

Not sure it's quite as clear cut as that Breacher....

 

For the recreational 'stalker' or 'hunter' then yes, it probably is - pick a rifle that suits your style.

 

Problem is that for someone that's doing it professionally, in a management capacity, if the beasts don't wander by your vantage point, you need to go find them and get the business done. So there's a requirement for a rifle that can potentially flatpack multiple deer, round after round in a short period of time, potentially at ranges many stalkers would cry about, and being light enough to handle. And being built like a tank, and as reliable as a reliable thing.....

 

 

Atleast, that's the way I see it......

[Grum87]

And feeds from a ten(my one takes 11?) round AW mag!

[Ronin]

Not sure it's quite as clear cut as that Breacher....

 

For the recreational 'stalker' or 'hunter' then yes, it probably is - pick a rifle that suits your style.

 

Problem is that for someone that's doing it professionally, in a management capacity, if the beasts don't wander by your vantage point, you need to go find them and get the business done. So there's a requirement for a rifle that can potentially flatpack multiple deer, round after round in a short period of time, potentially at ranges many stalkers would cry about, and being light enough to handle. And being built like a tank, and as reliable as a reliable thing.....

 

 

Atleast, that's the way I see it......

 

 

 

 

Pretty much nailed the reasons there...

 

That seems a familiar list!

 

If weight is your real enemy, have you considered talking to Borden about a Ti version of the mountaineer (as per several of their other actions), that's a 1/2 lb trimmed off but at a painful cost.

 

No doubt you have your barrel carefully picked out, assuming bottomless pockets, why not a carbon wrapped barrel?

 

How about improving an existing set up? Engineer a AW mag solution for the DTA covert, it's about 9lbs in 308 format (then you could tweak mine!). It's only the feed ramps and a replacement for part of the skins to retain the mag, should only take you a weekend

 

 

Yep, your build spec has set me thinking,,

 

 

I think if DTA has utilised AW mags in the first place, they would have been onto something good..

 

Carbon wrapped barrel had crossed my mind, though spendy and I havent bottomless pockets

[ejg223]

Edi, your CTR looks just about perfect imho.

 

Thanks,

works well too. A non rifle smith approach, it is astonishing how well it performs or how close in performance to a custom rifle...of same weight. Saying that I would prefer custom barrels, at least the ones I had so far.

 

Grum,

I think the recreational stalker will often also be under pressure to remove some deer...and why would you take a rifle along if you don't want to use it...

 

The 3-20x50 PMII scope I had on one CTR was a good crossover that could almost be used for driven deer (I would). I had taken deer out to 427m with the CTR and that scope as well as off hand close range deer. Much better suited to close range deer than a classic stalking scope such as a 6x42 or 8x56.

 

 

edi

[Ronin]

Matt

 

re the Badger 2008 (now 2013 variant) - yes, thats possible, but the AI (AW, AX) platform relies on four action screws, which causes problems mounting the bottom metal...

[brown dog]

Matt

 

re the Badger 2008 (now 2013 variant) - yes, thats possible, but the AI (AW, AX) platform relies on four action screws, which causes problems mounting the bottom metal...

 

Isn't that just a matter of making and bedding a couple of clever pillars (sort of 2 to one converters)?

[ejg223]

Doable but quite a bit of work. I had fitted AI mag systems to an old Sako and a 98 that had different hole spacing's. Action screws were then under the mag system and the mag system had threads inside the stock.

edi

[brown dog]

Doable but quite a bit of work. I had fitted AI mag systems to an old Sako and a 98 that had different hole spacing's. Action screws were then under the mag system and the mag system had threads inside the stock.

edi

I'd have to remind myself, but I suspect the same would not be true of an AI action, and the pillar-couplers would be pretty straight forward. One certainty is, putting an AICS bottom metal to an AI action won't foul the mag well with misaligned holes.

[lapua]

What about the AI safety, will you not miss the firing pin blocker?

[brown dog]

What about the AI safety, will you not miss the firing pin blocker?

? that's in the shroud.

[lapua]

? that's in the shroud.

 

and if he builds a Borden actioned rifle....

[brown dog]

 

and if he builds a Borden actioned rifle....

 

assumed your comment followed on from the preceding comments ..... you know, like in a chat