Weight Saving - discuss

[Ronin]

I currently run an AI AX for most of my deer management and "turn up and shoot" target events.

 

The platform has and is very reliable and abolsutely rugged, but has one drawback - weight.

 

The rifle weighs 13lb before its scoped, bipod and mod, so pushing 16lbs all up.

 

Not insurmountable and im reasonably fit, but lighter may be better, accuracy with another build would be the same or better...

 

 

Anyway, there are a few actions now that will work with AW double stack mags, so I am tentatively thinking of building a lighter gun for the same purpose and dispense with the AX.

 

 

At the moment the calculations come out with the following:

 

Action 2.5lbs

 

Stock 2.5 lbs

 

Barrel 4lbs

 

Making the base rifle 9lbs - saving 4lbs on the AI AX

 

 

 

So, the question is:

 

 

Is saving 4lbs worth the effort of building a new rifle and losing the AX?

 

 

Discuss please

 

 

 

 

 

 

[brown dog]

Where's the weight saving? What are the comparable AX weights?

 

Action

Stock

Barrel

[Dac9976]

Keep the AI AX for targets and get a decent stalking rifle or build a traditional sporting/stalking rifle.... just a thought:)

[bradders]

Weight saving in action and even barrels is negligible

The real weights in the stock, those have a overbarrel keymod handguard that probably serves no purpose, an overengineered buttstock (I reckon) and probably a ladypod up front

 

Bit as you probably do most of your shooting lying down, does the weight matter?

My "Highpower" AR15 weighs around 16lbs, and is used prone, sitting and standing, as weight adds stability.

 

I assume you aren't carrying it very far?

[brown dog]

I assume you aren't carrying it very far?

 

It's crawling etc with a front heavy rifle that gets emotional.

 

My knee jerk suggestion for making it a more comfortable rifle is to bring the CoG back:

 

Either a very short barrel or try putting a sporter profile barrel on it for stalking.

 

With that, if the scope's a S&B, they weigh a ton. Swap it for something light: a March or equivalent.

[Kalahari]

If you are stalking every bit of weight cut off within reason helps. Being short of breath and having a sky high heart rate is hardly conducive to accuracy.

 

David.

 

PS. Removing weight around the middle has been known to help as well.

[Ronin]

Where's the weight saving? What are the comparable AX weights?

 

Action

Stock

Barrel

 

 

 

Ax - 13 lbs

 

Proposed build - 9 lbs (estimated)

[Blue Haze]

Could you not just get the whole barreled action and bottom metal bedded into a light weight stock, and as above look at a lighter scope?? What glass is on there - I find much over 14 lb to crawl and carry for too long is OTT. I wouldnt say going from 8-10 lb makes much difference, but 16 to 14 would - to me.

[Ronin]

Sometimes out all day, though usually half day outings - furthest drag is half mile to 4wd or quad lift or winch in to the vehicle and return to larder.

 

Rifle weight isnt an issue now, though lighter is always nice

 

Usually shot standing (20%), kneeling (10%) or prone (70%)

 

My wieght or fitness isnt in the equation and it isnt an issue

[brown dog]

 

 

 

Ax - 13 lbs

 

Proposed build - 9 lbs (estimated)

 

Nah... how does the AX divvy out, action barrel stock. ie, where's the weight differential that you're finding in your estimate? As in my last post above, I think it's all about getting the CoG nearer to you.

[Tuck]

Andy seeing as your quite handy with your lathe, just build a lighter weight Stalking rifle and keep your AX that's what I would do, but then again if I could build myself a rifle as you can, I'd have 3 or 4 rifles a year.

[bradders]

It's crawling etc with a front heavy rifle that gets emotional.

 

My knee jerk suggestion for making it a more comfortable rifle is to bring the CoG back:

 

Either a very short barrel or try putting a sporter profile barrel on it for stalking.

 

With that, if the scope's a S&B, they weigh a ton. Swap it for something light: a March or equivalent.

It seems to me that in recent times many people are using rifles for stalking purposes that really aren't stalking rifles, not that I've done much of that, but I read and feel I know what should be wanted.

 

With any AI rifle, it's going to be an uphill battle.

Furthermore the shooter will no doubt have a fan in place, so that will add weight and length.

Given that stalking/deer management shots will be within reasonable distances (up to 300-400yds) a shorter and lighter barrel with a lighter scope as you say, like a March, NF or Leupold etc, a lighter mount and maybe an ally overbarrel can and you're going in the right direction.

I'd be happy to take anAI to the range, or even walk a few hills in a match shooting environment, but having one on my shoulder with all that other paraphenalia people carry with them and I'd be getting emotional too

That stock has a ally bar bonded to the action, does it not? There's weight in that too

 

For me it would be a new rifle I'd be looking at

[ds1]

Ronin, think you are using 6.5x47 lapua so a 20" medium Palma tube (possibility to set it back) in an XLR Carbon Chassis. The carbon chassis makes a difference to both weight and balance.

 

Fmj Firearms had one at last year's Mil comp. The weight and balance were night and day compared to my AIAW that I was using and the AX is heavier still.

 

As an experiment with the AX un-bolt the forend tube and see if the balance / weight are more acceptable - if so you just need a lighter solution to hang the bipod off or a carbon forend tube.

[ejg223]

Ronin,

all components should be looked at. My take is the barrel should be good enough to take a deer out to 500m. Maybe 22" 308? A Lothar Walther 1450 or medium Palma have worked well for me.

Stocks can be around 900 grams bedded. Scopes and mounts are a big hitter weight wise. My K624i first generation weighs 1.3kg with Spuhr mounts. I would like to try a 5-20 Ultra short PMII with a new Recknagel Ultra light block mounts, this should be well under 1000grams.

Action wise I would like to try one of the aluminium Schulz & Larsen Tactical with integrated pica rail. Have a sample but have not weighed it yet.

 

edi

[brown dog]

As an experiment with the AX un-bolt the forend tube and see if the balance / weight are more acceptable - if so you just need a lighter solution to hang the bipod off or a carbon forend tube.

 

That's a good idea, but I think the major muscle move regarding trimming forward weight is in the barrel. Then the scope.

 

As you both know, I Highland stalked for many years with an AWP - the getting about was never a problem, that was just a matter of having the right kit and fitness.

In contrast, it was the heavy forward balance when crawling, especially long crawls, and slowhandling (forward heaviness = slow) that could get a little emotional.

I put up with that, because in all other respects it delivered what I wanted: As robust as a girder. Completely reliable. Repeatedly balls-off-a-gnat accurate.

- which, I imagine are the characteristics Andy seeks to retain (otherwise, a different and lighter rifle would be an obvious no-brainer).

 

There's also something indefinably satisfying about using a best-of-breed marque, that's hard (impossible, I would say) to replicate after using an AI for any length of time.

 

If I had a nirvana rifle, it would be an AW bullpup......(it's not the weight, it's the forward CoG...I thought DTA may be the answer, but my DTA never quite convinced me that it was a rifle that had moved beyond final prototyping) ... it was only ever the forward nature of the AW's weight that bothered me - well, that and using it cack-handed for anything other than prone.

 

For Andy - a quick change T3 lite style barrel, or a 16" with a little more thickness, on the AX will probably deliver a beautifully balanced and reassuringly solid working rifle. 2 minutes work to mock up and feel how it would handle.

[Tikka4Sika]

A Tikka T3 CTR .308 will shoot sub moa with factory ammo , around .5moa with home load , total weight with a NF SHV ,bipod, sling and mod <12lbs and considerably less money that an AI .

Competitive on the range and very usable for the hills and moors, balance is also good.

[Ronin]

 

Nah... how does the AX divvy out, action barrel stock. ie, where's the weight differential that you're finding in your estimate? As in my last post above, I think it's all about getting the CoG nearer to you.

 

 

Barrel on mine is 4lb (20 inches and fluted)

 

Action - suggest 2.5 lbs - it will weigh no more than a benchrest action

 

Stock will be the greatest portion.

 

 

 

 

You hit the nail on the head regarding the dependability and mindset in owning the AI, you know it willl just work in any weather / condition., having used mine and pervious AI's for stalking, I have 100% confidence in the system and dependability

 

 

Thats the biggest hurdle for me to get over really, the rifle I use most is a tool that I need to work.

 

 

 

Whatever I built would be accurate, but would it be as durable as the AX...(which is another discussion entirely)

 

 

 

Ive even looked at splitting the action and putting it into another stock but the action fixings and mag prevent this without serious headache...

[srvet]

How does the AI compare to your 6.5/284 in weight? Would a lighter profile 20-22in barrel on that barrel/stock not be a readily accessible trial without losing the AI which definitely has its uses. The Etac stock weight would probably be around or just under 1000g or 2.2lbs so with a barrel of number 4 profile that would add about 3.6lbs or 4.1lbs for a heavier sendero profile if you prefer.If we add 2.7lbs for the long action we are up to 8.5 to 9lbs unscoped so probably 12lbs ish scoped?? Thinking about it that spec is not too far off my Rem mag with the exception of the 26 inch tube. That rifle and stock is great to carry, especially with side mounted flush cups and a biathlon sling even with a heavy PMII aboard. You are more than welcome to trial that rifle out in the field if you wish with your scope or mine. Equally a field trial with a super light PSE stocked (650g multipurpose) T3 could undoubtedly be readily arranged!! As for whether these give you the same feeling of security and robustness compared to the AI, only you can answer that.

[Chris-NZ]

16lbs Andy!!?? The serious mountain hunters round here think an all-up weight including good optics needs to be under 9lbs for a proper long range deer gun, and that includes big bangers.

 

Having said that, they tend to go for Ti actions, carbon everything and top end scopes so the budget can quickly blow out. Doesn't seem to be any shortage of punters getting my NZ Hunter mates to build them. If you're keeping the budget down, a T3 shifted into a carbon stock with a fluted #3 barrel and say Swaro Z5 is still a lightish and accurate long range rig.

[Ronin]

Food for thought from all,

 

 

I was considering the following specced build:

 

Borden Mountaineer Action - AW mag (sub 2lbs)

 

PSE E-Tac 3 stock (sub 2lbs))

 

Fluted 20" Med Palma Barrel (4lbs)

 

Trigger - upper end

 

 

 

Few other considerations :

 

AX is 3 lug 60 degree lift on bolt, so fast to cycle of 'multiples', probably semantics regarding two lug bolt being "slower to cycle"

 

AI trigger two stage - I like that and they dont or rarely fail in any conditions

 

 

SRVT - the 6.5 x 284 is about 10b scoped with the fixed PM11, I know I have a choice of a few, but the gun I always reach for is the AX.....(is that sub conscious bias.....)

[bradders]

I personally wouldn't bother with fluting, I think the benefits are negligible

If you want to save weight then a smaller barrel profile is the way to go, it won't shoot any worse and will also be a lot cheaper me thinks

 

If you're always going to go for the AW then you will just have to accept the penalty and suck it up

[Tikka4Sika]

Probably the most interesting thread Ive seen here , Thumbs Up.

 

We are lucky enough to have some top rifle builders in the UK who can turn out some very accurate rifles , do any of them promote being able to build a light weight , well balanced , highly accurate hunting rifle that will stand the rigours of heavy field use /abuse ?

[Chanonry]

The AX is a good 'bonnet' or 'hedge' gun. The bullet flies faster than I can crawl so provided I have a decent position it is very effective. It is not really a very great stalking rifle for most of us though, if the ground is steep and the walks are on the long side. Severe puffing does not help the hold.

 

In reality the accuracy it is capable of is just not required for shooting deer so the system is not optimum for this application - in terms of balance of accuracy vs portability. 800 yard accurate fire is not a requirement.

 

For high probability aim zones a modern 20" varmint action and barrel in a decent stock will do a very good job. It will deliver accuracy over a string of shots - how often is that really required, but in any event we can be sure it will retain accuracy. Weight is enough to help stay on target but not so much as to knacker the knees on a long day. Plenty good enough for longer shots.

 

Others will say its about stalking not shooting blah blah. Each one to their own depending on their aims. Equally not much point stalking into 100 yards with an AX.

 

Semi custom Howa, Tikka or Remmy varmint to give best bang for buck ?

[bradders]

The AX is a good 'bonnet' or 'hedge' gun. The bullet flies faster than I can crawl so provided I have a decent position it is very effective. It is not really a very great stalking rifle for most of us though, if the ground is steep and the walks are on the long side. Severe puffing does not help the hold.

 

In reality the accuracy it is capable of is just not required for shooting deer so the system is not optimum for this application - in terms of balance of accuracy vs portability. 800 yard accurate fire is not a requirement.

 

For high probability aim zones a modern 20" varmint action and barrel in a decent stock will do a very good job. It will deliver accuracy over a string of shots - how often is that really required, but in any event we can be sure it will retain accuracy. Weight is enough to help stay on target but not so much as to knacker the knees on a long day. Plenty good enough for longer shots.

 

Others will say its about stalking not shooting blah blah. Each one to their own depending on their aims. Equally not much point stalking into 100 yards with an AX.

 

Semi custom Howa, Tikka or Remmy varmint to give best bang for buck ?

Well the AX is not a stalking rifle......but is does fall under the British/UKV definition of any rifle I like be use for this and that Inc stalking is a stalking rifle. Even if it weights 87lbs!

Reality departed yonks ago

At least!t no one be thrown the "semi-custom" terminology in yet :-)

[srvet]

Will the close tolerances of the Borden action give you that sense of reliability or will it tend to jam up with the inevitable grit and pine needles?