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6.5x55 or 6.5x47?


pengo

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Hi all,

 

I'm currently putting together a variation on my ticket and was looking to add a rifle for Target/Longer range varmint and am undecided whether to go for a 6.5x55 or a 6.5x47, so would appreciate any input/review from anyone who has either of these calibres and what the pro's/cons are for each one. I would like it to be a varmint barrel, to allow 5-10 rounds of shooting at targets, without it overheating after 3-4 shots; and which twist rate would be better.

 

Also any advice as to manufacturer, regarding reliability etc, would also be welcome.

 

Hope to hear from you soon.

 

Cheers. Paul

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Well, normally I'd say 6.5x47 but as Lapua are about to offer the 6.5 Creedmoor with a small primer, that would (will) be my choice.

Hi Vince,

 

As I've already got my RPR in 6.5 Creedmoor, I was just looking for an alternative, which would be lighter to carry about, should I need to, but fancy something very similar to this, as I like the 6.5's.

 

I wouldn't rule out another one, though, at some point.

 

Have you any idea as to what the barrel life would be like on these two calibres?

 

Cheers. Paul

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Consider whether you are interested in a long or short action...

A short action .308 sized bolt face is versatile for the future if you find the custom action that interests you.

As far I know, (and I'm open for correction) the 6.5x55 has a unique sized bolt face.

 

The 6.5x47 has a limited variations of factory ammo which is expensive.

The 6.5x55 has factory ammo available throughout the UK and Europe.

 

To answer your question, I have a factory 6.5x55 for stalking on the hill. Light to carry and a known load that works but I can easily pick up ammo off the shelf as and when needed.

I also have a 6.5x47 for everything else and it accurate, cheap to load for once you have dies, brass etc. This is my one go to rifle for rabbit, fox deer, and bench rest 1000 yard competition.

 

I would definitely consider adding 6.5 creedmoor to your list too......

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Can't comment on the 6.5x55 but more than happy with my 6.5 x47 .dont use it that much to be fair but can get the on at 750 with in a couple of shots .not an indepth answer i grant you but always puts a smile on my face when I use it

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I'd back the Lapua option. Mine's a mid-weight varminter with a 27" bbl and an 8-32 NXS. It's without doubt my most accurate rifle and I've come to realise the chambering is extremely efficient and forgiving to load for. Any small quarry within 500yds is in serious danger.

 

I also have the 6x47L as an F-class rig but it's less forgiving.

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Hi Vince,

 

As I've already got my RPR in 6.5 Creedmoor, I was just looking for an alternative, which would be lighter to carry about, should I need to, but fancy something very similar to this, as I like the 6.5's.

 

I wouldn't rule out another one, though, at some point.

 

Have you any idea as to what the barrel life would be like on these two calibres?

 

Cheers. Paul

Paul,

 

The 6.5x47 is not too hard on barrels especially with a single-base powder. I use mine purely for McQueen comps so that means about 250 rounds per year. Will I live long enough to shoot it out?

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Pengu,

 

boils down to if the new rifle will be off the shelf or built.

 

Off the shelf the Swede and possibly 6.5 Creedmoor (Howa I think do this cartridge in heavy barrel in a GRS stock = all you need)

 

If being built then the 6.5x47 as you would have more action options, the Swede being both a long action and different bolt face to all the '.308 type' bolt sizes

 

I have both the 47 & 55, former for range and latter for stalking/vermin (out the box Tikka which is silly accurate with home loads), but you could interchange both in reality.

 

If you look at it, the 55 came out in 1894 and in the 120 years since we've gained a few fps unless you throw away barrel life, so in practical terms as good as you'd need. caveat - using modern actions and Skan data.

 

Brgds & Happy New Year Terry

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The main issue is action length (and if a medium to high capacity detachable box magazine set-up is needed that issue too), the 6.5X55 needing a long version, 6.5X47, Creedmoor and 260 Rem short.

 

The 'non-standard' case-head diameter is usually a canard, it being a mere 10 thou' nominal and the vast majority of factory and other bolts accepting 6.5X55 brass happily. I have a Savage 12 single-shot PTA action whose 'standard diameter' bolt-head has happily coped with 6.5-284 Norma, 308 Win, 6.5X55, and 7mm-08 over various rebuilds. Very occasionally, a slight relieving operation is needed.

 

If you take case capacity and the smallest of the quartet (6.5X47 Lapua) as a base 100, they run at:

 

6.5X47L ............. 100

 

Creedmoor ........ 111

 

260 Rem ............ 115

 

6.5X55 ............... 119

 

(But 260 in a short action / magazine combination often cannot make best use of its capacity compared to the other three because of the need to seat bullets over-deeply. In practice, once a bullet is seated the usable combustion chamber volume is very close to that of the Creedmoor giving a 10 or 11% increase over the 6.5X47L.)

 

Maximum allowed pressures work in the opposite direction to case capacities, 6.5X55 SKAN (modern actions and brass) 55,000 psi; Creedmoor and 260 Rem at around the 60,000 psi mark but best kept to factory levels of 57,000 psi or so; 6.5X47L at over 63,000 psi.

 

Lapua's soon to arrive 6.5 Creedmoor small primer brass will be a game changer as it will allow the cartridge to be loaded to its full SAAMI potential of 62,000 psi MAP - which Hornady brass simply won't take and which the factory has had to acknowledge by downloading its products.

 

All four are capable of superb precision in a well built custom rifle. All four do what it says on the tin.

 

For the deerstalker relying on factory ammo, the choice has to be between 6.5X55 and Creedmoor, 6.5X47L being virtually unobtainable and horrendously expensive, 260 Rem now very poorly supported by the factory (both Remington Arms rifle side and the components / ammunition part of the business) and at risk of being ditched by other US rifle manufacturers in the scramble to jump on the Creedmoor bandwagon. 6.5X55 is so popular and heavily used across continental Europe and Scandinavia that European factory sporting ammunition will continue to be produced for decades to come irrespective of what is happening over in the USA.

 

The handloader is largely unconcerned by this of course as long as good brass is readily available at reasonable prices. In the short to medium term, that won't be an issue here, all four being made by Lapua, three out of four by Norma (no 6.5X47L).

 

With a modern action and sensible handloads, there's little between them in performance and barrel life - the 6.5X47 gets there running significantly higher pressures, and the 6.5X55 at significantly lower ones but being rather less efficient with a longer cartridge and a few grains more powder. If cleverly loaded, the 6.5X55 can probably equal the others' performance and outdo their barrel accuracy lives as it has enough capacity to make efficient use of very slow and cool burning powders, Viht N165 being the outstanding example.

 

For most people (outside of Scandinavia), the action / magazine length issue is the crucial one in a build choice, so the 6.5X55 is ruled out from the start, but it ultimately comes down to personal preferences or gun-porn fashion some would say - they all work.

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Paul, the replies have a wealth of various experience,and I tend to agreewith most,though there are some points of detail,and one of serious substance,given your desiderata (weight for a carrry rifle,and choice thereof).

Laurie,as ever,summarised very well the position generally..indeed,as it must be ..."down to personal preference"...we are lucky that remains so.

As a hunting carridge,there really is nothing ballistically in all this-if 2200 ft lbs heart shot does not down a species,then 2400 ft lbs would not change the outcome! Several million Scandinavian hunters are not going to trade in/up/down their Swedes for a new cartridge anytime soon,irrespective of what their home manufacturers (Norma,Lapua,Vihtavuori) do commercially (short of ending 6.5x55 ammo,leaving only half a dozen maybe US options-not a lot more than the rather surprisingly neglected 260 Rem).

None of this concerns reloaders,as Laurie points out-so long as one load is possible and works,you are in business.

Targeteers may be a tad more fussy-for hunters,.1 moa hardly matters-a central hit on the atrial artery is dead,PDQ,whether on the left or right side. Varminters are sort of in between-though to 500y,it's more an individual rilfe thing than a cartridge one....if we accept 6.5 as suitable,and many do (not all FLOs maybe,initially).

I have used a 6.5x55 (Ackley) and a 6.5 M/S,among others;I doubt there would be reliable differences day to day between the 800y hits on a clay pigeon with the 22lb 42xNF Tooley Ackley,and at 200y with the 61/4 lb open sight 6.5x54 M/S. There simply is no choice between them,of course by design,however, as a hill stalker,and any situation where much cary is needed. Beyond 200y,with varmint quarry,the odds move to the heavyweight...neither is really what is needed (6.5 calibre,or smaller;and max 9 lb,with 40x scope,and consistent .5 moa,and first shot predictability.)

 

OK ,if a carry rifle/varminter is an important part of the specs-and it was-then choices will NOT be limited so much by cartridge,as by rifle availability. Custom means whatever you wish,but seemed not intended.

You have a RPR in 6.5 CM-an entirely appropriate range rifle. There is no real reason to change cartridge for a near identical 6.5 ,other than rifle logistics/choice....but you may have to-rifle choice is both subjective,and limited by manufacturers. Sako,eg,do not currently do a CM-which woud be my choice,if available,

but not maybe yours-a sound,accurate factory rifle,with varmint barrel-(but remember you will be carrying that weight-I gave up on a 243 Sako Forrester HB for that reason-nice range shooter though,for informal club level shooting.Ditto PPC-wonderfully accurate (300y) but heavier than need be.

I accept there has to be compromise-varminting won't often need ten shots as barrel heats,target range may,but varminting might need carrying. Compromise is exactly that..you can't have it spot on both ways....think golf clubs-no pro carries a half set- he has a full set and a caddy.

Choices in factory CM;6.5X47;6.5x55 (less so) will be variously limited-not an issue IF one fits your desires.

We will all vary on such compromises-and not entirely for convincing objective reasons-I'm just not buying a Howa in preference to a Sako (if there even were a similar cartridge available)-manufacturer would swing it for me-especially for field use.

Others will make different compromises. Decide what your use is;and which model rifles you short list. Only very rarely will effective cartridge choice be minimal-there will likely be one 6.5- a CM would be excellent,but another 6.5 really just means another set of dies to match.

C'est la vie. Bon apetit!

 

gbal

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I would build a 6.5x47.

 

As you say you already have a Creedmoor and the small primer brass isn't here yet, even if it was for most applications there is very little to choose between the two cartridges. I keep building 6.5x47s and they all keep shooting so well, its almost getting too predictable. :)

 

An 8 twist offers the most versatility and there is mountains of data out there regarding loads so it isn't hard to get them to shoot providing all the basics are right.

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I would build a 6.5x47.

 

................... and there is mountains of data out there regarding loads so it isn't hard to get them to shoot providing all the basics are right.

 

 

There is surprisingly little proper pressure gun tested published data around for the cartridge. In fact until days ago it was virtually Vihtavuori or Vihtavuori and a very limited range from Reload Swiss. The good news is that Hodgdon has now added it to its menu driven 'Reloading Center' facility only in the last week or two with 52 loadings for Hodgdon and IMR powders covering seven bullets from 95 to 140gn weights.

 

Before people get too excited by some of the MVs, it should be noted they're for a 30" barrel. Somewhat oddly, max load pressures are quoted in CUP (the old Copper Units of Pressure) not PSI. This is presumably because the cartridge is not SAAMI supported and I think the European CIP uses a different pressure measuring system, so it may be a 'quasi wildcat' to an American company producing data. So, I presume Hodgdon had an old fashioned pressure barrel made up for it or maybe rechambered an old 6.5mm example on hand. In any event max pressures are mostly around 52,000 CUP (same as 223 Rem and 308 Win when they used this system) with the highest I saw at 52,700.

 

http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/rifle

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There is surprisingly little proper pressure gun tested published data around for the cartridge. In fact until days ago it was virtually Vihtavuori or Vihtavuori and a very limited range from Reload Swiss. The good news is that Hodgdon has now added it to its menu driven 'Reloading Center' facility only in the last week or two with 52 loadings for Hodgdon and IMR powders covering seven bullets from 95 to 140gn weights.

 

Before people get too excited by some of the MVs, it should be noted they're for a 30" barrel. Somewhat oddly, max load pressures are quoted in CUP (the old Copper Units of Pressure) not PSI. This is presumably because the cartridge is not SAAMI supported and I think the European CIP uses a different pressure measuring system, so it may be a 'quasi wildcat' to an American company producing data. So, I presume Hodgdon had an old fashioned pressure barrel made up for it or maybe rechambered an old 6.5mm example on hand. In any event max pressures are mostly around 52,000 CUP (same as 223 Rem and 308 Win when they used this system) with the highest I saw at 52,700.

 

http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/rifle

 

 

I was thinking more along the lines of user experiences/load data Laurie. Good powder/bullet combinations and MV's achieved from barrel length/charge weights. You gave me some very useful data yourself a while back for which I was grateful :)

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Give me a ring Paul, or call round for a cuppa. I,ll show you the differences. ;)

Thanks Dave, I'll take you up on that kind offer, it'll be interesting to find out. I'll ring first.

 

Have a good New Years.

 

Cheers Paul

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Many thanks, a great read guys. Considering a 6.5 variation in the new year and for the most part has made things easier!

 

Out of interest...... the Lapua 6.5CM brass. Apart from Lapua making awesome brass is there any significance or advantage of them using a case that uses the small rifle primmer as opposed the the current large rifle primers used in the case?

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Many of the classic cartridges are still with us today,

6.5x55, 8x57JS, 30-06, 270 Win, 22-250, 220 Swift to name a few. Even a few young pups like 308W, 243W, 222R, 223R.

With modern propellants and projectiles they are even better today than they were in their heyday.

Not a dig but I wonder how many of the new cartridges will be around in 100 yrs time?

6.5x47 Lapua, 300 WSM, 375 Blaser Magnum?

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Many thanks, a great read guys. Considering a 6.5 variation in the new year and for the most part has made things easier!

 

Out of interest...... the Lapua 6.5CM brass. Apart from Lapua making awesome brass is there any significance or advantage of them using a case that uses the small rifle primmer as opposed the the current large rifle primers used in the case?

 

The small primer brass takes the pressure so much better. This means that with annealing, the brass will last longer and, more importantly, better ballistics are obtainable.

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When Lapua introduced the 308W Palma small rifle primer brass,they claimed 'enhanced long range accuracy for competition.

Specifically,reduced velocity spreads ,giving reduced vertical dispersion.

 

Early tests seemed agree-the US team eg finding some 1/3 reduction in velocity SD; better lot to lot ignition consistency with the SR primers.

 

As Vince says,with annealing especially,more case firings are achievable too,before theprimer pockets loosen-which is an attractive economy especially for shooters who load for maximun velocity (and therefore pressure and case expansion/loosened pockets -the 'serious' competitors in Lapua's sales niche.)

Very basically,more thick brass around the smaller diameter pocket much reduces pressure expansion.Accurate shooter 308w site will update.

Similar benefits can be expected in other (high pressure) cartridges-as the 6.5 Lapua and CM.

 

Laurie had an early informative post on this eg 3 Nov 2010 "Lapua 308W Palma SRP",including initial issues about adequate ignition-readily solved by changing primers.

 

gbal

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Many of the classic cartridges are still with us today,

6.5x55, 8x57JS, 30-06, 270 Win, 22-250, 220 Swift to name a few. Even a few young pups like 308W, 243W, 222R, 223R.

With modern propellants and projectiles they are even better today than they were in their heyday.

Not a dig but I wonder how many of the new cartridges will be around in 100 yrs time?

6.5x47 Lapua, 300 WSM, 375 Blaser Magnum?

They probably said the same thing when these new fangled brass cases came out and people suggested stopping tipping black powder in from the muzzle !

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As Toby's examples-some cartridges survive on merit,and well deserved reputation.

 

But there are many,many others that become 'obsolete'.

Sometimes better cartridges displace them,but as often it is other factors.

Fashion;poor marketing;purpose much reduced;limited/poor rifle options;legislation;reason obsolete!

 

333 BSA1921-333OKH 1946-338Win Mag 1958-338-06 1998

 

303 Mag Jeffrey 1919 -Long Range target cartridge,but matched by top load 30-06

 

240 H&H Apex/Super Express 1920s-242 H&H NItro Express 1923-similar to later 243,available in affordabe factory rifles.

 

260 BSA Belted Nitro Express- factory ammo sacrificed effectiveness on game to maximum velocity

 

280 Ross 1906,fine cartridge-inappropriately used,and poor rifle performance in trench conditions.

280 Jeffrey1915...probably went down wwih the Ross...and only expensive proprietary rifles...

 

404 Jeffrey 1909 still survives in Europe as the 10.75x73

 

300 Canadian Magnum 1989 (180@3360,in R 700 long action...but then along came Rem 300 Ultra marketing power)

 

6.5 Rem Mag 1966 compromised by it's rifle,the short barrel 600 carbine,and bullet deep eating velocity losses.

 

(of course,the 30/30 in light lever action carbines maintains huge popularity-that combo probablly kills/wounds more deer annually than any other!....and add in 'national' preferences/prejudices/traditions to the list.)

 

All the British 400-600 Nitro Express cartridges-a few victims of 'no military calibres' in India,mostly just limited well off sportsmen,and diminishing pachyderms etc to shoot.And very recently,a slew of heavy bolt action cartridges and affordable rifles for that purpose-too many 416s,for example?

 

 

OK,just a few tips of icebergs examples-there really are dozens and dozens,probably hundreds,for many reasons.

The "classic' or popular survivors are good,but by no means uniquely so.

 

Future 'classics' are likely to be the result of factors other than just their suitability/merit-though we know more clearly some of the factors that militate against 'classic' status,most tend to 'just work' quite well-itself a changing criterion!

Que sera,sera. :-)

 

gbal

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A good example of what determines success or failure is the 6.5mm Hornady Creedmoor and its 'parent', the .30 TC. The TC was developed by Hornady for Thompson-Center Arms to be introduced with one of T/C's few (only?) ventures into the bolt-action rifle market, the T/C Icon, as recently as 2007. Using Hornady's 'Superformance' development skills it gives a 150gn SP bullet same MVs as standard .30-06 loadings from a case that is slightly smaller than the 308 Win's.

 

In 30-calibre it's a total lemon sales-wise. It works as advertised, but why would you saddle yourself with a rifle chambered in a new cartridge loaded by only one company that does the same job as the 308 and .30-06? The answer is of course, you wouldn't, not if you have any sense anyway.

 

When Hornady started to think about an everyman's 6.5 match cartridge at the prompting of Dennis DeMille, former USMC shooting team member and now Creedmor Sport's managing director, it was able to put one into production very quickly and at low cost through little more than necking-down the .30 TC case. Hey presto, a great success from day one because it filled a gap in the market, and was able to capitalise on the work already done by the 6.5X47 Lapua in preparing US shooters to accept a small/medum cartridge in the calibre and the resurgence of interest in the 260 Rem thanks to sniper / tactical competition shooting. It was deliberately priced to be 'affordable off the shelf' in the US, a lot cheaper than Remington's 260 and vastly more so than the Lapua product. Moreover, it might not have 'Invented and manufactured in the USA' printed on the carton, but would-be American customers are very aware of that.

 

You could argue that Remington could have done the same job with its 20 odd year old 260 .... and it could, but it didn't. A great example of a large corporate ignoring trends and restricting its options with a mindset that says - we make deerhunting ammunition; there's no profit in match loadings; anyway, the 260 has never been more than a modest seller, so there's a very restricted market for cartridges in the calibre.

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