Calibre Advice

[gbal]

+ 1

 

"hang about, let me just dig out me anemometer, better still I'll check the speed on me iphone app, no, tell you what I'll hold a blade of grass in the air (if I can see it in the dark)"

 

The wind from shooting position might very well be 10mph..but gusts at 250 - 300yds is a totally is a ballgame

 

But if Charlie (and family) luckily do happen to be having a midnight tea-party, fantastic!; and those few hundred fps will not make a blind bit of difference.........in real-world foxing you really do not have the time

 

(wind ) And that is exactly why reducing windage matters-it's the reduction in wind error that it gives that matters.

Trajectory is much less important-not because of rangefinders(in the dark?)-but because to 250 most of the sensible cartridges are very similar and within critical limits.

If you still have doubts,replace fox with crow,and see how windage matters-an inch wind error there is a miss (remember you are adding wind error to all the others-and at 300 even a 1/2 moa rifle-at 100y- is using up most of the target !)

 

Absolutely agree fps is not critical-see my figuresfor some pretty extreme veocities v standard one-for vertical to 250/300.

 

gbal

[Dalua]

I cant believe no one has suggested 6mmBR, the perfect Foxing round, just load up with 87grn V-Max and off you go, easily good for 500yds with supreme accuracy.

 

Ian.

Does the 6BR have a velocity advantage over the standard .243Win?

[snakeman]

Either way, the dog will still not have time to say to the vixen "duck, there's a bullet coming" ...with either cartridge

[Vermincinerator]

Does the 6BR have a velocity advantage over the standard .243Win?

No it doesnt, the 6mmBR gives up about 150-200fps to the 243 but the cartridges inherent accuracy is the key here as well as ease of reloading, i would have a 6BR over a 243 everytime

For the distances that the OP wants to shoot there is no need for booming barrel burners, the 6BR is fast enough supremely accurate and a joy to shoot

 

Ian.

[Dalua]

No it doesnt, the 6mmBR gives up about 150-200fps to the 243 but the cartridges inherent accuracy is the key here as well as ease of reloading, i would have a 6BR over a 243 everytime

For the distances that the OP wants to shoot there is no need for booming barrel burners, the 6BR is fast enough supremely accurate and a joy to shoot

 

Ian.

Interesting - I supose it depends in whether the advantage of better accuracy makes up for the trajectory and wind disadvantages resulting from a slightly slower bullet.

[gbal]

Ian, no-rather than yes. They are pretty close.

 

It is not easy to get a perfectly fair comparison.

Most BR's are custom,often running somewhat hot loads (so are some 243s of course).

Same applies to precision-premium bullets factory etc etc-but the BR probably has the advantage-why the BR dominates 300 y shooting for score-as 30 BR,not 6BR...bigger hole cuts lines more often...its that close,but not 100/200y group-it's all very tight!

 

Case capacity does not favour 6BR,but it might be 'more eficient'

Some data nudges the 6br ahead with lighter,behind marginally with heavy bullets.

 

The 6BR can and does shoot very well to 1000y (benign conditions) but so does a fast twist 243 with high BC bullets...(the standard 243 won't)....cf 30 BR is a delight to 500y,but that's it....totally eclipsed by 308 at 800(308 is 'beaten' by the 6BR-complex or what?!)

 

Factor in all the variables-fps/BC/quality of rifle...and what it's for....good luck with a clear winner.....

but only had three standard 243s and two custom 6BRs...a lot is in the small print...

 

you can cherry pick a fair bit....

 

gbal

[weejohn]

6-284 would add considerable legs to a 70gr Blitzking.

+ 1

[swagger700]

22x47 with 75 grain a-max shoots well.

[gbal]

+ 1

Yes...but.....not a lot in for effective performance on fox....see data already given....

 

6mm with 85 g bullets 300 fps MV increase gave less than 2" d/d advantage

 

and it generalises (as given)....

308 cal with 130g and 475 fps advantage gave under 2" advantage

 

of course,for shooting large antelopes and on up,energy advantage matters....but fox? nope!

 

To a first approximation, case capacity gives a good guide,and 284 and 308 (243) are in the same class by design,a bit short of 30-06 performance,but in short action. Can't be changed dramatically for sub 300y on fox.)

 

g

[Vermincinerator]

At the distance that Cruach wants to shoot he does not need to be concerned about the drops and wind drift reductions offered by Hi BC bullets driven fast by large capacity cases, its just not needed, accurate range finding elevation and windage adjustment is far more important then a bullets ability to drop less and drift less at 1k, knowing his bullets drops and being able to read and dope for the wind will put far more foxes in the bag then pushing a High BC bullet fast out of an unnecessarily large case.

 

Ian

[gbal]

At the distance that Cruach wants to shoot he does not need to be concerned about the drops and wind drift reductions offered by Hi BC bullets driven fast by large capacity cases, its just not needed, accurate range finding elevation and windage adjustment is far more important then a bullets ability to drop less and drift less at 1k, knowing his bullets drops and being able to read and dope for the wind will put far more foxes in the bag then pushing a High BC bullet fast out of an unnecessarily large case.

 

Ian

Ian, I'm rather arguing (in the academic sense-present the data) against big cases-because their gains in fps make rather ittle difference inside 300 odd yards! They give large energy increases (not needed,and even counterproductive-recoil - alone permission etc).

But there are gains worth having-I've already spelled out it is the improvement in inevitable error reduction in wind that can be improved. Drop is not effectively different between contenders-including the big stuff....I have serious doubtsabout laser rangefinders at night-and whether there is time anyhow-but with good appropriate cartridge selection,its not much of an issue.

Wind is moreso-it just begs question to say improved wind reading will do it all-yes,but how is improvedwind reading to be achieved...in the dark....at relatively unknown distances...or...what is to be used meanwhile....the good windage cartridges are no handical surely once you can read wind-just a bit more 'insurance' for the expert....

Overgeneralising risks throwing the baby out with the magum bathwater!

Now-is the 243 too much....for a lot of (fox) shooting it is-and therfore all the 'potent' stuff is correspondingly OTT-s an olsd stalker once said a bit too loudly to an american weatherby owner and his boasted foot pounds "Aye,but nearly a' into the f***ing heather"-wrds of pure wisdom (and vitreol,when he missed...

150y,wind under 10mph-I'd take 222 for easy shooting,or that class (6BR,PPC -usually too heavy-add in 223-pretty good with right bullets).

But 300 and breezy....winddrift starts to come into play.....as I've said,many a crow is simply missed by windage-though of course fox offers bit more leeway-but you need to do the figures realistically-no-one is shooting .75 moa there,whatever they might do sometimes,under better conditions,at 100y!

And since the 'old' 243 gets pretty good,point is :it gives most all the advantage,none of the disadvantage of the short magnums etc. (actually not that old-mid 50s,284 was just ten years later (223 isn't exactly new-mid 60's).The good 22-250-well,about the same era,as factory legitimate-my savage 250 parent is 100 years old though....

Interesting to sort the meat and bones from the appetites!

 

 

 

g

[Chanonry]

At the distance that Cruach wants to shoot he does not need to be concerned about the drops and wind drift reductions offered by Hi BC bullets driven fast by large capacity cases, its just not needed, accurate range finding elevation and windage adjustment is far more important then a bullets ability to drop less and drift less at 1k, knowing his bullets drops and being able to read and dope for the wind will put far more foxes in the bag then pushing a High BC bullet fast out of an unnecessarily large case.

 

Ian

 

 

Your foxes stand still while you range and shoot ? Constant wind over flat ground? Easy peasy then -> perfect firing solution. Happy days

[snakeman]

Interesting - I supose it depends in whether the advantage of better accuracy makes up for the trajectory and wind disadvantages resulting from a slightly slower bullet.

 

+1

 

'Accuracy', when used in field & foxing scenarios up to 300m, is negligible between 6BR & .243 - remember, this is field conditions; inclement weather: dark:

 

The 'best' calibre or should I say most accurate calibre for the OP intended purpose, will be determined by the person who's firing it, not by the calibre perse

[Vermincinerator]

 

 

Your foxes stand still while you range and shoot ? Constant wind over flat ground? Easy peasy then -> perfect firing solution. Happy days

Where in my last post did i mention foxes???

 

Ian

[gbal]

Nearly there-intrinsic rig precision (rifle and ammo) is not that different between likely cartridges on 300y fox;velocity is not a large factor,and has nearly reached asymptote in SAAMI loads,as does BC,likewise approaching the point of seriously diminishing returns.That is crucial.When 300fps and/or BC better by only .1,and it means only 1/2 inch,it's time to focus elsewhere.

 

Yes,on accuracy -what the shooter contributes --under field conditions-very much including the shooters firing solution.

 

Very very few shooters will show superior rifle handling with a heavier calibre than a lighter one (300WM v 223 eg),so there is some advantage to the more 'shootable' cartridges/rifles.There is also some contribution to the better firing solution by the slightly flatter,and especially lesser wind drift cartridges-there will be less shooter error where it might be critical,but only if the shooter knows these values well when he makes his shooting solution especially if there is wind.Quite simply,as shooting solutions-where to aim-wrongly ignoring a 5 inch drift will mean a much worse shot than miscalculating a 10 inch drift as 8 inches...(5 inch error V 2 inch error,which really matters when it is added to other usually smaller error effects).

 

gbal

[Tikka4Sika]

Some interesting info on the .243 here http://www.6mmbr.com/243win.html

[6.5 shooter]

22x47 with 75 grain a-max shoots well.

 

Do tou shoot this combination?

I would be interested in hearing more if you do...

[AnthonyR]

Do tou shoot this combination?

I would be interested in hearing more if you do...

 

 

The A-Max is a lousy bullet when compared to the TMK IMO.

 

When I had my fast twist 22-250 built I had this bullet in mind as my go to combination but the results were disappointing to say the least, one minute it would shoot a nice group but the next was terrible but as soon as I moved to the 77gr TMK it was a revelation and I havn't looked back since

 

I did think about a 22x47 but decided that the additional case prep work over a 22-250 was just not worth it, the cases are extremely similar .

[gbal]

Anthony, yes,it's sometimes the detail that lets you down.

All my formative years (up to about 16),I lusted after a 22 Middlestead (necked 243) as the ultimate varminter,and let 22/250s slip past me (available,nice,not Swift enough...foolish boy;the 38-24-36 was but a temporary distraction in the grand scheme of life.)

Then decades on,58g bullets became available and stable in standard 243s,which had not slipped past me and I had the middlestead equivalent......except there is stll no really long range varmint bullet in 6mm,while the (fast twist) 22/250 has such (tho' not back then -55g and 60g ,for most 224s-on limits).

You'd think ,wouldn't you,with all the bullets....and long range varminting..........nope.

I've invested in a 250 savage meanwhile-nice cartridge,just a tad less puff than 243-so the youngster* may still have an edge..someday,for distant varmints-as it does for much else at sensible ranges. I'll just have to wait :-)

g

 

*250 savage 1915

243 win 1955

[Sherlock]

In previous years I shot around 150 to 250 foxes per year. Although recently I shoot about 60.. but that's by choice.

I have used owned and shot many different cals - from 17 rem - up to my current 6.5 creedmore. I also shoot over open mountainous and moorland areas.

 

 

So in this thread there is advice about using mega High BC bullets... going at relatively slow speeds. IMO this is not the best option for foxing.

Simply put - you don't have time to F ek around range finding and dialling in on fox -- especially by lamp. They are often on the move and might stop and give you a couple of second to get the shot away. .

 

When we look at foxing , a 300 meter shot is a long way under lamp light - and IMO most foxing will take place between 150 and 250 yrds in these open areas.

But in the scheme of things , a 300 yrds target STILL ISN'T that far for bullets with very high BC's. This is where things get interesting , you often don't get the full benefit of the high BC until after 400 or 500 yrds or so, This is when the velocity of regular bullets has fallen away.

 

The last thing you want for foxing is a rainbow trajectory and having to dial in on a fox that is moving away or appears unexpectedly.

My advice is keep the bullets trajectory flat and use a bullet with good ballistics ( but not at the expense of too much velocity) .

 

 

Without hesitation - the two tight twist 22.250's I have owned - shooting 75 grn / or 77 grn bullets at over 3300 fps have been awesome LR foxing calibres - the best I have used.

This combo is flat shooting . bucks the wind very well and is SO hard hitting. The bullets expand aggressively unlike a lot of the high BC bullets ( match king - Berger - Lapua)

Also , it should be noted (as an alternative ) the same guns , would also shoot a 53 grn Vmax at 3850 fps. This takes a lot of beating for a 300 yrd gun.

 

Ballistically , my 22.250 was better than my other rifles including 243 & 6 Br (shooting any bullet) Both of those were good , as are the 223 , 20 cals ect . But sling a 75 grn bullet at 3350 fps with a BC of 0.435 and that is special.. I also prefer the 22.250 over 6.5 CM as an out and out foxer . Also a 95 grn Vmax travelling 3400 fps is fun.

 

ATB

S

[snakeman]

 

 

So in this thread there is advice about using mega High BC bullets... going at relatively slow speeds. IMO this is not the best option for foxing.

Simply put - you don't have time to F ek around range finding and dialling in on fox -- especially by lamp. They are often on the move and might stop and give you a couple of second to get the shot away. .

 

When we look at foxing , a 300 meter shot is a long way under lamp light - and IMO most foxing will take place between 150 and 250 yrds in these open areas.

But in the scheme of things , a 300 yrds target STILL ISN'T that far for bullets with very high BC's. This is where things get interesting , you often don't get the full benefit of the high BC until after 400 or 500 yrds or so, This is when the velocity of regular bullets has fallen away.

 

 

 

 

+ 1 on that Sherlock, bang on!

[gbal]

S (et al)-I agree,and with much of other posts,though they are a bit general (no data).

 

My point derives from data given-for 300y fox,kill zone around 4/5 inches, velocity (and BC) approaches asymptote around 3600fps MV-more brings increasingly diminishing returns (and maybe disadvantages-another issue).

Around this level,drop is within kill zone size,so minor errors are tolerated.

But in wind,10mph,drift is greater-and errors (highly likely by 300) may take the shot outside th kill zone.

It would need quite a cartridge to get a 4/4 ballistic,and is getting...unpractical/impractical/unlikely!

 

What higher /similar velocity cartridges and good (heavier) BC bullets deliver is that kind of ballistic d/d with very much more energy-not needed for fox at 300y.

g

[AnthonyR]

In previous years I shot around 150 to 250 foxes per year. Although recently I shoot about 60.. but that's by choice.

I have used owned and shot many different cals - from 17 rem - up to my current 6.5 creedmore. I also shoot over open mountainous and moorland areas.

 

 

So in this thread there is advice about using mega High BC bullets... going at relatively slow speeds. IMO this is not the best option for foxing.

Simply put - you don't have time to F ek around range finding and dialling in on fox -- especially by lamp. They are often on the move and might stop and give you a couple of second to get the shot away. .

 

When we look at foxing , a 300 meter shot is a long way under lamp light - and IMO most foxing will take place between 150 and 250 yrds in these open areas.

But in the scheme of things , a 300 yrds target STILL ISN'T that far for bullets with very high BC's. This is where things get interesting , you often don't get the full benefit of the high BC until after 400 or 500 yrds or so, This is when the velocity of regular bullets has fallen away.

 

The last thing you want for foxing is a rainbow trajectory and having to dial in on a fox that is moving away or appears unexpectedly.

My advice is keep the bullets trajectory flat and use a bullet with good ballistics ( but not at the expense of too much velocity) .

 

 

Without hesitation - the two tight twist 22.250's I have owned - shooting 75 grn / or 77 grn bullets at over 3300 fps have been awesome LR foxing calibres - the best I have used.

This combo is flat shooting . bucks the wind very well and is SO hard hitting. The bullets expand aggressively unlike a lot of the high BC bullets ( match king - Berger - Lapua)

Also , it should be noted (as an alternative ) the same guns , would also shoot a 53 grn Vmax at 3850 fps. This takes a lot of beating for a 300 yrd gun.

 

Ballistically , my 22.250 was better than my other rifles including 243 & 6 Br (shooting any bullet) Both of those were good , as are the 223 , 20 cals ect . But sling a 75 grn bullet at 3350 fps with a BC of 0.435 and that is special.. I also prefer the 22.250 over 6.5 CM as an out and out foxer . Also a 95 grn Vmax travelling 3400 fps is fun.

 

ATB

S

 

Totally agree.

 

My 7 twist 22-250 is deadly with the 77gr TMK but will also shoot the 55gr SBK into bug holes at 3800ish fps, so best of both worlds for me, both of these bullets are devastating on foxes, much better than my 20 Tac.

[Sherlock]

Hi G.

Yes its easy to go down the arms race of recommending bigger and meaner calibres .. I suppose in the end we will end up with a 50 BMG or such like , to shoot a fox.

 

Or using ever increasing BC bullets without considering if they will expand or not -- I.E - 115 grn Dtac simply pass straight though.. or the fact that they are getting slower and slower in relation to the calibre they are used in. So its a compromise - use a bullet that expands - with a decent BC and send it fast enough you don't have to worry if the quarry walks an extra 15 yrds.

 

If you look at 6mm - there are loads of bullets - like 87 grn Vmax or 88 grn Berger high BC pills that have sufficient BC and velocity out of 6br and 243 to do the job.

The 22.250 with a 75 / 77 grn pill - drops less and drifts less ... but the fox will not be any more dead.

 

ATB

S

[gbal]

S,

I nearly included a serious heavy,to make my 3600 fps point,thought better of it-someone might think it's serious

 

(it's 165g@3500 giving 4.6/4.6 at 300 (SAAMI so prob could be eased up to 3600,and down to 4+)

 

That might (might!) make hitting fox easier,but leaves bullet's terminal effect open....we've been through and through all this and agreed. But first connect. Following are 200y zero (100y will be a bit more d/d)

 

243 BC.315 85@3300 at 300y is 6/8, 58Vmax BC.25@3750 5/9; both low BCs but d/d good enough.

 

The 22/250 will get in among those also(I don't have data for 77/BCs )but the 55gBC.255Vmax @3680 is 5/9

 

Enough already

 

atb

g