Calibre Advice

[CRUACH]

Hi

 

I am looking at having a rifle built specifically for foxing on open moorland.

 

Most shooting will be sub 300mtrs in windy conditions, occasionally further, steep uphill/downhill shots, usually at night etc.

 

The rifle itself will be reasonably lightweight, with a barrel no longer than 24".

I have a short action .308 and two long actions .30-06/300wm to build from, so I should be open to plenty of options, which adds to the indecision.

I am after a flat shooting calibre which bucks the wind well, I do reload and don't mind having to neck down/up, fireform etc. Barrel life isn't a big issue and I would be happy with max 800rounds, low volume use.

 

My default choice would be the 243win with a bullet circa 70gn

 

My question ; is there anything more potent, practical that would fit the platforms I have spec'd? Should I be looking to run heavier higher BC bullets and sacrifice a bit of velocity, at the distances I will be shooting at?

 

 

Thanks in advance

[6.5 shooter]

Tight twist 22-250?

[CRUACH]

Hadn't considered this before, will look into it. Thanks

[Charlts]

6-284 would add considerable legs to a 70gr Blitzking.

[snakeman]

I'd stick with your default

[Scrumbag]

Cheeky suggestion: 6mm Remmington?

 

Tapered for feed, lots a 6mm bullets...?

[AnthonyR]

My choice of ultimate foxing calibre would be a 20BR firing the 55gr Berger, you should get to about 3550 fps with a 24" barrel.

 

I have a tight twist 22-250 firing the 77gr Sierrra TMK, it is a very accurate long range rifle but for fox work I would prefer something a bit flatter, although you could try the 69gr TMK which would give a bit more velocity.

 

I always use NV for fox work now and prefer a low recoil cartridge for this so I can keep an eye on the target in the recoil phase and the ranges tend to be shorter hence I use a 20 Tac for this.

[gbal]

Fast twist 243 - 1 in 7-with heaviest bullets-115,or 105 varmint class.

Very very little will beat that in windy situations (with irregular terrain),or be 'flatter'-including more exotics,which have all sorts of inconveniences of components etc and costs.

And you have an ideal 308 platform donor.

Wind drift is about halved,compared to eg 308,and beats all the lighter.smaller calibres/bullets-the more so as distance increases.

Of course you can shoot the lighter 243bullets if need be,but it has much more to offer with the high BC bullets.

You won't need it,but it has genuine 1000y capabilities-that is a lot of reserve=great 300y performance!

 

It's way better than the standard 243 with 70g bulets,though that isn't a poor choice;all the advantages of 243 availability,none of the disadvantages of wildcat/exotica. Recoil is ok,with a moderator-as you know.

 

Check out Accurate Shooter site-243 page-especially the drop/drift data:

 

243w 115 DTAC @3120 drop/drift at 300yards 9/4inches in a 10 mph wind,200 zero

 

Fed 70g Nos BTs@ 3500 at 300 gives 5.5/8.....you can of course shoot those too

 

cf 204Ruger40g Nos BT @3625 gives 5.5/10.2 and under half the retained energy (512 ftlb)

 

25-06 115g Nos @3220 gives 6/7; the 85g load BTip @3470 gives 5.2/7.3

260 Nos BT @ 3200 gives6.4/8.3 (and the fashionable 6.5 Lapua/CM will be ffectively the same; 6.5x284 also.All with more recoil of course.

 

Bon apetit!

 

gbal

[banus02]

243 .6.5x55 and 2506 all will do the job,personally i use 6.5x55 123gr amax.works for me.

[Grum87]

I've knocked live prey down with my 260rem from near point blank right out to 950 yards.

 

Good selection of bullets from 85gr HP from Sierra, 95gr Vmax from Hornady being brutally destructive - and surprisingly accurate even out to 500....., right up to big 140grainers that'll flatpack anything, and do well in the wind.

[Chris-NZ]

I'd be thinking a 6 or 6.5 launching heavier projectiles. These will drift far less than many of the lighter/smaller pills.

[Xtrema]

Another vote for 260 Rem.

Most of my foxing is undertaken on open down land. Consequently many of my shots are at quite long range.

120gn up to 300 yards and 140gn beyond.

Having said that, 6.5 Creedmoor would perform just as well with the added benefit of having longer bullets fitting the magazine.

[Dalua]

I'd stick with your default

It'd find it hard to see how you could do better than that.

[CRUACH]

Thanks for the Input so far, has anyone had any experience with the 6-284 vs 243 with 105gn bullets? Would a 24" barrel be too short for the 6-284 to gain any significant advantage.?

I do like the 6.5s and was considering the 6.5x284/260 etc.

[snakeman]

CRUACH

 

Sorry can't compare the .284

 

From what I read in your OP you only intend to use this for foxing up to 300m and, occasionally a bit fit further?

 

A bog-standard 1:10 twist .243 will do everything and more that you ask of it at your specified ranges with an 85g Sierra Gameking or Hollow Point or the 87g Hornady V-Max. They are devastating rounds on fox and, at considerably more distances than the distances you're gonna be shooting, even the 'occasional shots'

 

However, if it's about what's 'en-vogue', you probably already know the .243 is an old cartridge and some of the 6.5's will have more 'kudos'..But, the good 'ol .243 is as good as its ever been for your requirements and more, regardless of 'drop & drift', ' and all the bells & whistles' with the 'newer' bullets available etc etc

 

It's unlikely any cartridge will have any significant advantage (300m)...Of more concern to me would be, because it's after dusk... "is the shot safe to take and, is it going to be a humane kill?; particularly at those distances, in the dark. It's not much fun mooching about on land in the dark searching for an injured animal - just my view

 

ATB

[CRUACH]

Yes agreed. I'm merely interested to see what else is out there.

[triggersqueezer]

think for that job i would buy the carbon wrapped 7mm barrel about 16" long in 7mm i have seen for sale on a stalking site cheap.chamber it in 284 and have an awesome light weight wind beating rifle.though i suspect a tad loud.

[lapua]

300 win mag shooting 125 nosler bt's

[Dalua]

What an interesting range of suggestions - ranging from tiny bores with massively heavy-for-cal bullets, now to a strikingly large-for-purpose bore and case with very light-for cal-bullets.

 

And in the middle remains that match made in ballistic Heaven - .243Win with 75gr VMax, or some such.

 

As I say - interesting.

[AnthonyR]

IMO for fox shooting with a lamp you need a fast flat calibre that bucks the wind well, not a loopy target calibre.

 

You just don't have the time to faff about worrying about holdover or under if close, zero at 230-250 and aim straight at everything out to 300ish

 

If you are not using a lamp and have time to range, dial or hold corrections then other calibres come into play.

 

Another consideration for some may be problems getting big calibres for fox work, my FEO would not let me have a 243 solely for fox shooting. I remember Paddy Dane on here built a 300 WSM for varmint shooting which IIRC was using 125 gr BT bullet, now that would be quite something, if a little short on barrel life and a bit hard to get past some FEO's

[gbal]

Anthony,purely in the xmas spirit of camp fire chat on this topic,I've just done a 300 WSM :

 

300WSM 130 BT @3500fps 300y drop/drift 200y zero ,10 mph wind 5/6.7 inches

 

243W 70g BT @3450 300y drop/drift 200 zero,10 mph wind 5.5/8 inches

 

Comparing these.....I agree about trajectory/time pressure ....but 1/2 inch?

 

Wind reading error is about 20% (by 300y) so what matters really is what 20% of the drift is,as likely error...diff here is .325 inch-

-thats the increased error with the 243-unlikely to be significant in the dark/time pressure even with head on shot (narowest)

 

It does help to reduce D/D of course.

Of course both the above could be made hot-to almost no differential improvements (and that isn't the best 243 load,with a faster twist).

Energy of course is much greater in WSM (2055v980 ft lb at 300y),but that isn't going to change the FLO's mind,quite the contrary,if using the guidlines,nor indeed the fox's remains.

 

Sensible zero helps quite a bit,agreed-out to 350 or so,always sems to me sensible to zero at the most likely shooting distance,rathr than 'just100' every time-it all helps (but mega fps etc don't help that much.....a 4/4 is possible,but I'm not telling-xmas is for kids!)

 

Fun,but figures too....

 

g

[AnthonyR]

Anthony,purely in the xmas spirit of camp fire chat on this topic,I've just done a 300 WSM :

 

300WSM 130 BT @3500fps 300y drop/drift 200y zero ,10 mph wind 5/6.7 inches

 

243W 70g BT @3450 300y drop/drift 200 zero,10 mph wind 5.5/8 inches

 

Comparing these.....I agree about trajectory/time pressure ....but 1/2 inch?

 

Wind reading error is about 20% (by 300y) so what matters really is what 20% of the drift is,as likely error...diff here is .325 inch-

-thats the increased error with the 243-unlikely to be significant in the dark/time pressure even with head on shot (narowest)

 

It does help to reduce D/D of course.

Of course both the above could be made hot-to almost no differential improvements (and that isn't the best 243 load,with a faster twist).

Energy of course is much greater in WSM (2055v980 ft lb at 300y),but that isn't going to change the FLO's mind,quite the contrary,if using the guidlines,nor indeed the fox's remains.

 

Sensible zero helps quite a bit,agreed-out to 350 or so,always sems to me sensible to zero at the most likely shooting distance,rathr than 'just100' every time-it all helps (but mega fps etc don't help that much.....a 4/4 is possible,but I'm not telling-xmas is for kids!)

 

Fun,but figures too....

 

g

 

All good but the claimed velocity for the 300 WSM was 3750 fps which will make a fair bit of difference.

[snakeman]

 

 

You just don't have the time to faff about worrying about holdover or under if close, zero at 230-250 and aim straight at everything out to 300ish

 

 

 

+ 1

 

"hang about, let me just dig out me anemometer, better still I'll check the speed on me iphone app, no, tell you what I'll hold a blade of grass in the air (if I can see it in the dark)"

 

The wind from shooting position might very well be 10mph..but gusts at 250 - 300yds is a totally is a ballgame

 

But if Charlie (and family) luckily do happen to be having a midnight tea-party, fantastic!; and those few hundred fps will not make a blind bit of difference.........in real-world foxing you really do not have the time

[Vermincinerator]

I cant believe no one has suggested 6mmBR, the perfect Foxing round, just load up with 87grn V-Max and off you go, easily good for 500yds with supreme accuracy.

 

Ian.

[gbal]

Anthony, it would,but how much...let's have a look...

(as I said,my data is SAAMI safe-but it can be hotted up-I don't like to quote such stuff,as it implies to the unwary 'safe' ,without specifying custom chambers and generally stromger actions...and NEVER measures pressure,but accept some SAAMI is not pushing the sane limits so....OK,but don't try this at home...the returns might reduce the desire to do so,anyhow:

 

300 WSM SAAMI 130@3500 is 5/6.7 so....let's up the ante and see....

 

300 cal (proprietory factory) 308 cal 130 g @3975......3.5/4.7 ......so that's 1/2 inch less wind error...I'm getting impressed!

It's not poit and shoot,but by golly,it's closer....but it's nearly 500fps more.....

 

let's extrapolate to middle 3750 ......about 4.25/5.7.....(BC varies a tad,so good ball park only)...but good!

 

So.....243 does what given the treatment....

 

243 ( SAAMI) Fed load 85g@ 3300 was 6/8.3,so lets see....

 

243 (proprietary) 85@3618 is 4.6/6.3 ....about the same relative improvement.......1/2 inch less error...for 300+ fps

 

By golly,not a lot in it,anywhich way.

 

The 243W is of course available off the shelf,no price premium,as is the (factory) ammo.....and fairly 'shootable'...

 

I'd hestitate to say 300y foxes don't deserve something amazing,...but having hesitated( and considered the likely effects on shooter accuracy of marginally more potent cartridges)....well,let's say,as others have,I can see why it is popular (and very justifiable).

 

"You can have fun with figures....but more fun with mine" Mae West :-)

 

g