Is My ELR Rifle Legal in the UK?

[alcesgigas]

The "Princess" is a Defensive Edge (DE) LRKM 338 Terminator. The cartridge is essentially a 338 Lapua Improved, but it's launched from the maker's patented "+P" chambering which allows for greater speed at lesser pressures. So far it seems to have delivered the goods on that. It's a single shot bull pup bolt action (DE's own action) with a 31" Broughton barrel with a DE brake affixed. Presently I'm experimenting with a Precision Armament M4-72 Extreme Duty brake also. My original purpose in entering the Extreme Long Range arena is the continued procurement of moose which I depend on for sustenance here in Arctic Alaska. At 71 I'm noticing how much heavier moose have gotten of late, how they've lengthened the distances from former neighborhoods where once I found them easily, and seemingly, why they end up in the most forsaken locales to extract from. So, as always, I've needed to check on accessibility and realistic retrieval of the meat, but that turf has shrunk hence the option to drop them in a larger cross-sectional physical area accessible by boat or ATV. In the short; to be able to take moose humanely up to a mile. This rifle can-do, it no doubt exceeds my capabilities as a shooter these days, wind calls the constant challenge in particular.

 

Anyway I'm thinking that red deer in the north over there might provide similar long distance deliveries--and good eating of course. The third photo has two bulls and a cow just over a mile as an example...

[maximus otter]

The rifle itself is perfectly legal.

 

I'm pretty confident, however, that no land owner would allow shots at living creatures at the kind of ranges that you contemplate. The pro stalker who introduced me to red deer stalking had between 3,000 to 4,000 reds to his credit, and never took a shot at over 250 yards; even that range was only attempted occasionally and under absolutely ideal conditions.

 

By the way, in the UK we have no "public land" for shooting purposes. Every square inch is owned by somebody, and you have to have their specific, informed consent to shoot over it. Even that doesn't take account of police/legal considerations as to whether the land is suitable for shooting and/or the calibre you intend to use. Land that might be approved for .17 HMR, for example, might well not be approved for .223

 

Happy hunting!

 

maximus otter

[Bangbangman]

I think it's "legal" but I'm not sure how it would be received on a guided stalking outing!

[DW58]

I'm in northern Scotland and I feel that while perfectly useable/ethical for red deer stalking that it's unlikely that the police would authorise such a calibre as to quote my FEO "it's just not necessary".

 

As for shooting deer at the ranges you propose, here in the UK it's just not considered eithical or sporting.

[gazzarM1]

I have a 338lap conditioned for deer

[DW58]

I have a 338lap conditioned for deer

Interesting ... ... ... For use where, which Force area?

 

I've heard of several refusals here in Scotland.

[Brillo]

I can think of a few who would love to shoot that brute at Orion

[DW58]

I have a 338lap conditioned for deer

Interesting ... ... ... For use where, which Force area?

I've heard of several refusals here in Scotland.

I broached the subject of adding a .338LM to my FAC with my FEO - he sucked his cheeks, rolled his eyes and said "we've never had one of those before" ... ... ... he rambled on about numbers (meaning calibres) and implied that in his (clearly un-educated) opinion .338 was "too high a number" - yes, really! I think I can justify it, but it's not going to be a walk in the park - this is a work in progress.

 

I know of three .338LMs in northern Scotland - 1 in the former Highland area, 1 in Grampian and another which could be Grampian but could be on an English FAC. I'm sure there are others.

[gazzarM1]

Interesting ... ... ... For use where, which Force area?

I've heard of several refusals here in Scotland.

 

Open ticket Lancs

[DW58]

Sounds like Lancs are more sensible than many. Do you also have it on your ticket for taget shooting and if so is there any primary range. The reason I ask is I'm trying to put together a few pointers with a view to possibly educating my FEO and perhaps getting a .38LM on my ticket in future. Grum** is in Scotland, he has a .338LM slot AFAIK, must compare notes with him.

[Viajero]

In the UK the stalking is the art , not blasting animals at very long ranges as often they are maimed , ie legs and jaws blown off , 300 yards is generally considered the max range for a competent shot on guided deer hunts , your calibre is far more powerful than necessary for the biggest deer and would no doubt cause meat damage way beyond an acceptable level.

My advise would be leave your big rifle at home and bring a .308 or the likes otherwise you risk being ridiculed or refused permission to hunt deer on any respectable estate.

I see your age is 71 , I hope you are in good health as there is often a days walking in mountains involved on a hunt , we dont do canned hunts in the UK (not that I know of anyway)

[DW58]

Totally agree with every word Viajero says above.

 

Back to the .338LM - the stupid thing is I'd get something along the lines of .300 Lapua, .300 Norma Magnum, .300 RUM on my ticket with no hassles asthey are .30 calibre - I already have a .300 WSM, but some of the Police Scotland FEOs - certainly in my area (the former Grampian Police area) - have a phobia against any high powered (effectively HME) calibre over .300". It's nothing whatsoever do so with bullet weight/muzzle energy, it's all about physical calibre and especially that magical number .338 - it's so arbitrary in reality. How to get around this - I don't really want/need a .338LM, but it's a point of principle in all honesty.

[Viajero]

Totally agree with every word Viajero says above.

 

Back to the .338LM - the stupid thing is I'd get something along the lines of .300 Lapua, .300 Norma Magnum, .300 RUM on my ticket with no hassles asthey are .30 calibre - I already have a .300 WSM, but some of the Police Scotland FEOs - certainly in my area (the former Grampian Police area) - have a phobia against any high powered (effectively HME) calibre over .300". It's nothing whatsoever do so with bullet weight/muzzle energy, it's all about physical calibre and especially that magical number .338 - it's so arbitrary in reality. How to get around this - I don't really want/need a .338LM, but it's a point of principle in all honesty.

Put in for a variation with a covering letter , demonstrating your knowledge of ballistics and a fully detailed explanation as to why you need that calibre , your reason may be wanting a dual purpose rifle thats good for long range target shooting and also stalking deer , explain you would load your own ammo and that a lower m/e would be used for deer , it may work but as we all know in the UK we need a reason to own a firearm and a reason for a firearm type so if you dont have a plausible reason.......

[Laurie]

The original post is a little ambiguous. I read it as Alcesgigas is considering using it on reds as a visitor to the UK. Others have taken it as a resident / potential resident therefore needing an FAC / variation.

 

If it is for temporary UK use on a visit, the first thing would obviously be to approach shooting estates with a view to shooting availability costs etc, and also whether they are willing and able to countenance this 'cannon' (by UK deerstalking standards). If there is a suitable and happy host, it then becomes an issue presumably of obtaining a visitor's firearms licence and I've no idea at all how anybody gets them in normal circumstances and whether Police Scotland (assuming they issue it) would regard an extreme long-range 338 as OK in the circumstances.

 

This might be a good question for the Stalking Directory Forum.

[Viajero]

OP, you may wish to consider doing this course when you come to the UK , you will learn a lot about how deer hunting is done in the UK and qualifying may get you access to hunting estates that would otherwise not allow you on them ,if you go this route then see if you can get the manual sent to you in the US as theres a bit of studying to do, http://www.bds.org.uk/index.php/training/dsc1

[Andrew]

I have typed out two responses and erased them. I can't keep my digits working in a civil progression. Suffice to say that I have had periods in my life during which I lived entirely by the bounty of my rifle; meat and hides. When your stomach is calling the shots, you get close and certain. Your next meal and your cartridge supply depend on it.~Andrew

 

PS: I don't think the OP was suggesting he would come to the UK. (a bit of an extravagance for someone who depends on moose for sustenance, right?) I think he was suggesting that such a weapon as his would be good for Reds -his segway into the UK hunting discussion while presenting his rifle.

[gazzarM1]

I dont have a specific range...conditioned for target and open for deer and ALQ

[brown dog]

I no longer have it, but when I had 338LM on my FAC, it was conditioned for deer and fox. Yes, really

 

There's a lot of sniffy rubbish written about deer stalking, on the one hand it's all 'tweed and glassing' on the other it's industrial-level massacres with animal welfare and quality of shooting nearer 'ethnic cleansing' than 'tweed and glassing'. It's not unknown for the two extremes to be delivered by the same individuals. I wouldn't listen to a word of poppycock about 338 being 'too much for my poor wee beasties', far, far worse is done to them in the name of forestry.

Anyone with a greater ballistic experience than '270win for reds', would happily take a 338LM deerstalking, nothing wrong with it at all. A bullet's a bullet - but then, I used to be known to use a 300wm on roe (didn't seem to make them any more dead than a 308).

 

As regards extreme distance shooting at unwounded animals, most here would subscribe to Craig Boddington's view: This ain't combat.

 

 

All that said, the rifle in the first post looks to be an amazing piece of equipment! I've very limited experience with a standard 338LM out of an AWSM at a mile, and, I have to say, even first-round hitting something the size of a car at that distance, with unknown/unflown wind, is a bit 'hit and miss'! I'm sure many of us would love to hear how a purpose built improved 338lm does at inanimate targets at 1 mile - its dispersion, wind deflection, first round hit probability etc. Also be interested to learn what you're using to obtain your firing solutions - the whole shebang.

[Grum87]

Sounds like Lancs are more sensible than many. Do you also have it on your ticket for taget shooting and if so is there any primary range. The reason I ask is I'm trying to put together a few pointers with a view to possibly educating my FEO and perhaps getting a .38LM on my ticket in future. Grum** is in Scotland, he has a .338LM slot AFAIK, must compare notes with him.

 

 

I do have a 338 slot now, albeit I was knocked back for shooting over land. The FEO(Perth based, but answering to Dundee), was quite good about it, and with the agreement of BASC, did concede it'd be 'reasonable' to use over a considerably larger area of land. So.....a work in progress there.

 

For me the conditioning it for land lends itself to being able to do load development and whatnot without travelling for hours, or paying through the nose to do so. Would I take live prey with it? I'd probably give it a bash on the reds, but would I make a habbit of it? No. Would I push it to it's limits and try drop deer at 1000 plus? Not a chance.

 

With regards to the other conditions pertaining to my 338 slot, it's conditioned for use with the FCSA, but no specifics on what ranges. I have a coverall condition on my ticket that says;

 

'The firearm(s) and ammunition shall be used for target shooting, and only whilst a member of CVPC and FCSA, and only on ranges suitable for the safe use of that class of firearm and with adequate financial arrangements in place to meet any injury or damage claim.'

 

So....I guess I could use it on any range/club shoot that it is safe to do so?

 

My biggest limiting factor at the minute is my wallet though. Would anyone like to buy an arm and a leg, or perhaps a kidney?

[Rob1562]

I broached the subject of a .338LM (for deer) with my FEO and was told the Home Office regard this as a "dangerous game" cartridge and would be fine if I wanted to take it abroad but was too much cartridge for the UK.

He then went on to make himself look even more confused by stating he would be more than happy for me to have a 30-338LM conditioned for deer.......i guess you just play the post code lottery and get what you get !!

 

Regards, Rob.

[justin credible]

Isn't it just typical of the plod bullshit.

Oooh no,you can't have a .338LM (which can shoot a 225 grain bullet) 'cos it's too much gun......but we are okay with a 30-338LM firing a 240gr bullet!!

 

I remember years ago being allowed a 22lr for rabbit shooting, and later on I asked to change it for a 17hmr to be told that "I could not have of those because they can penetrate body armour" Really? So the .308 that I also have can't do that then?

[DW58]

I'm so sick of the lack of standardisation across the country - it's bad enough that here in the People's Republic of Sturgeonistan we don't have standardisation across Police Scotland (aka Nicola's Private Army), but we get different answers/opinions from different FEOs operating from the same licensing office.

 

I very much got the opinion from my FEO that whilst he wasn't keen on the idea of a .338LM rifle, any .30 calibre rifle will be fine, so as you say .30-338LM, .30 Lapua, .30 Norma or similar.

 

It's utter madness to the point of being ridiculous!

[bowji john]

Isn't it just typical of the plod bullshit.

Oooh no,you can't have a .338LM (which can shoot a 225 grain bullet) 'cos it's too much gun......but we are okay with a 30-338LM firing a 240gr bullet!!

 

I remember years ago being allowed a 22lr for rabbit shooting, and later on I asked to change it for a 17hmr to be told that "I could not have of those because they can penetrate body armour" Really? So the .308 that I also have can't do that then?

 

Cancelled my comment

[Toby]

I didn't read into the post that the OP was planning a trip to UK, merely asking if his rifle would be legal and a british example of his type of shooting. I may be wrong though, the wife says so all the time.......

[Grum87]

I'm so sick of the lack of standardisation across the country - it's bad enough that here in the People's Republic of Sturgeonistan we don't have standardisation across Police Scotland (aka Nicola's Private Army), but we get different answers/opinions from different FEOs operating from the same licensing office.

 

I very much got the opinion from my FEO that whilst he wasn't keen on the idea of a .338LM rifle, any .30 calibre rifle will be fine, so as you say .30-338LM, .30 Lapua, .30 Norma or similar.

 

It's utter madness to the point of being ridiculous!

 

 

Can you shoot 338 at Cawdor? If you can, and there's a discipline you can shoot with it, surely that's good reason enough to get your foot in the door with it, so to speak? Having it for target is a start.....