What do you think?

[Towsey]

Hi all

 

I have a cz 455 .22 and I've been offered a hardly used barrel in .17 for £100, I'm not sure if this includes a mag. I have a spare slot for .17 on my ticket but after wot I've read and heard lately about ammo etc I wasn't going to bother filling it. I know I can count the clicks on the sights and things to help zero for the other caliber but it's going to be a bit of a faf to change often and really it wants to be worth swapping for a good bit of shooting and leaving in whichever caliber for a while.

 

Would you bother???

 

Do I just stay away because of the reputation of the round nowadays, or do I stay away and just buy a full setup if I want .17, and also the barrel is 16", would I be better with a 20"? Oh, and will my sak mod be ok for a 17, I can't remember?

 

Thanks in advance for your views

 

Towsey

[Grum87]

Weren't 455 barrels sold with the guns, as a set?

 

That'd suggest to me that they are headspaced individually, to their matching receiver.

 

Not saying it won't work, but you'd be best having the headspace checked with your action, and if needs be, fettled with.

[Viajero]

Ive got a CZ455 , bought it new , just came as a .22lr , as for 17HMR Ive no intention of getting a barrel due to the dubious reputation , plenty of better stuff out there.

[Towsey]

Cheers for the replies

 

I have seen people buying in a set but i thought it was more America and oz that that happened. All the people I know who bought new just got the barrel that came in it. Cheers for the headspace advice tho, wot are the main effects I would be likely to notice?

 

When I was in my gun shop the other day, when the barrel was offered to me, I saw they had just taken delivery of loads of boxes of Hornady ammo. I never thought to ask wot it was but is the .17 problem more availability or quality

 

Wot other caliber would you recommend, I was thinking .204 but wondered if it might be a bit much just replace a .17

 

Towsey

[Grum87]

Cheers for the replies

 

I have seen people buying in a set but i thought it was more America and oz that that happened. All the people I know who bought new just got the barrel that came in it. Cheers for the headspace advice tho, wot are the main effects I would be likely to notice?

 

When I was in my gun shop the other day, when the barrel was offered to me, I saw they had just taken delivery of loads of boxes of Hornady ammo. I never thought to ask wot it was but is the .17 problem more availability or quality

 

Wot other caliber would you recommend, I was thinking .204 but wondered if it might be a bit much just replace a .17

 

Towsey

 

Rimmed cartridges headspace off the rim - so the 'head space' is the space in which the rim of the cartridge sits, between the bolt face and chamber. If headspace is excessive, in a rimfire you'll likely see light strikes. I suspect split cases(already a .17hmr issue) would also become an issue. Too little headspace would mean there is too little room for the rim, which could make for a crush fit, or even completely refusing to close the bolt. Crushing the rim on a rimfire will end in a bang.....

 

That's my understanding of the headspacing problems with a rimfire anyway.

 

My understanding is quality is the big concern with .17 rimfire ammo.

 

During manufacturing of normal centre fire cartridges, when bottle neck cartridges are necked down to their final shape, they are normally annealed(heat treated) to 'un do' any work hardening of the brass, which could lead to split necks. Bottle necked rimfire cases cannot be annealed, as they are primed before necking down. Annealing would set the priming compound off. This leaves an already very thin brass neck brittle and prone to splits. It's not uncommon to sort through a box of unfired ammo and find split necks amongst live ammo from the factory. This creates a scenario where a cartridge could potentially take in moisture from atmosphere, and fail to ignite properly on firing. If it goes 'phut' and the bullet fails to leave the barrel, you've got the potential for a major balls up if another round is chambered and fired.......plenty of horror stories of blown up 17's about.

 

Safety aside, plenty of 17 shooters will tell you the quality of the ammo isn't what it once was, to the extent stocks of old stuff are cherished.

[Viajero]

Cheers for the replies

 

I have seen people buying in a set but i thought it was more America and oz that that happened. All the people I know who bought new just got the barrel that came in it. Cheers for the headspace advice tho, wot are the main effects I would be likely to notice?

 

When I was in my gun shop the other day, when the barrel was offered to me, I saw they had just taken delivery of loads of boxes of Hornady ammo. I never thought to ask wot it was but is the .17 problem more availability or quality

 

Wot other caliber would you recommend, I was thinking .204 but wondered if it might be a bit much just replace a .17

 

Towsey

.204 is an excellent calibre , surpasses the .17HMR on range and energy by a long way , the only negative is ammo cost ,around £19 for 20rnds , cheaper if you reload of course.

The .204 even has its own forum http://204ruger.com/

[Towsey]

Ah that was about how I understand it to be, I was expecting something more scientifically in depth.

 

Yeah I remember when .17's were the in thing and could do no wrong, so is even Hornady stuff not much good now?

 

As for other rounds, I have asked this before and .204 seemed a popular answer, but I was asking more along the lines of something a bit smaller than a .223. But wot if I was to ask about something a bit bigger/better than .17hmr. Something usable in most places, easy to source and not too dear to feed. Basically a step up from .22lr that's no bother to shoot upto 100 rounds a nite?

 

Thanks again

 

Towsey

[gbal]

Tiwsey, this topic has been done 'in depth'and sometimes 'scientifically'-or at least with ballistic detail quite recently on here-try "Any 17WSM users out there' from 22 nov,or "17 Fireball" fromsept 10.

 

These indicate the kind of issues-note you need to be a bit more specific and refer to a cartridge notcalibre (17 HMR or 17Rem,not just 'the 17' -there are around 20 '17s' but they vary very widely 'scientifically".

 

Rimfires are cheaper to feed.Problem is that only the new 17WSM upgrades the 17HMR balistically,and seems to be vulnerable to some brass issues....Grum describes the issue well-the cases are just intrinsically weaker....we don't really know yet whether the 17WSM will deteriorate as the 17HMR ammo seeems to have done.....

 

The 22 cf class ( a wide one-from relatively humble Hornet to the potent 22/250 is a large step up in power-and costs -there is no free lunch).We can discuss the Fireball all day-a fine round,but a 250 yard one-and the 22rf is a 75 yard round-a huge increase,which may well be over kill-in terms of terain etc...include here too,the 17rem and the 20 cals -mostly derived from 223,or similar-very fine but way OTT for a 125 yard cartridge....note that is a considerable step up from 22rf (yes.i know...head shots at 150 yards all day long-no,look at the 'groups' people were actually getting at only 100y from 22rf (another thread on here)-the 22 rf is at such distances 'hit and miss',which is unacceptable.The 17 Fireball/ similar are essentially slightly shortened 222 Rems-good cartridges-but why not the full version...discuss- they all are in a differnt league to what you ask about.

 

There is a gap for what you want-a cheapish (ie rf) 125 yard cartridge-hence the 17HMR,but that is dogged with ammo issues...17 WSM may work out.....

 

 

There is of course,the 'old" 22 Hornet-with modern ballistically more efficient bullets it's much improved,and in 17 Hornet form about as close as you will get-though it nears 223 drops,it really is restricted by considerably more wind effects. It's also reasonably available,and being cf,is reloadable.So at least a 150y+ bunny cartridge,more in calm conditions,with a skilled shot,so it nudges the ranges where the 17/20/22 cf class cartridges,which add another 100y-come into the reckoning.

 

 

100 rounds a night-pretty rare for a cf shooter....you'd be looking at £60-100 for cf ammo,and reloading would about halve that (reloaders often forget to factor in brass costs-it does not last indefinitely),or use current,ever increasing,costs (or use poorer components)

 

There are many,many 'wildcat cartridges' -some intended to fit your needs,none have ever caught on-"cheap' and 'wildcat' are not words that sit together very well and are really for afficionados,who enjoy technical challenges.

 

There is plenty "scientific' aka ballistic detail available,but giving detail on ,say a dozen '17s' would get tedious-and most are non starters anyhow,given your requirements....(oh,and this has been documented here recently too....you end up with a necked pistol cartridge.. and single shot custom barreled rifle...a reinvented wheel).

Your requirements,which are entirely reasonable,are just pretty darn hard to deliver (ask Remington about their 5mm Rem mag rf,and how many 22WRF Mags were sold in UK,even before the 17HRFMag offered a 'better'-but it seems flawed-mousetrap?)

 

Do some 'research'-you'll learn a lot about the various constraints on the 125y cheap,convenient,rabbit cartridge concept (it goes back to the old Rook and Rabbit rifles too......) ...thee are worse ways of spending a wet night-eg trying to shoot such bunnies with a "22" rf!! :-)

 

gbal

[VarmLR]

Forget the 17 cal rimfire carts...all will be compromised by the brass issues, unless manufacturing has changed in the last year, which I doubt.

 

For a 125yd rabbit RF cartridge, you can't really better the .22 WMR for which CZ does offer rifles. If you want something different but don't want to go to CF, a suppressed WMR may well fit the bill. Reliable, no brass issues (as it's the parent un-molested case for the 17 HMR) and it's cheap.

 

I wouldn't bother with the HMR. Many like it, some claim never to have fired a squib round in gazillions of rounds shot over many years, nor had any ammo problems but my own 5 year stint with one put me off ever wanting to own another. Variations in ammo batches alone resulted in having to re-zero the thing constantly. It was a complete and utter waste of time and I regret having ever bought one. Ammo isn't that cheap when you waste half a box rezeroing, or have to discard some with split necks. I now use a 223 for almost everything that I used to use the 17HMR for, and load according to distance and quarry. Reloads can be done for 40 to 45p/cartridge, so 20 carts for under a tenner isn't too bad. I also have a 22 WMR and like the cal.

[Towsey]

Thanks for all the info folks

 

One thing thats nagging me is, around me the .17 hmr is still popular. Granted, one place says they have had no ammo for about a year, and another has boxes of the stuff and different types that I have seen myself. And there are a few experienced shooters that still swear by the .17 hmr. But, I like to hear all sides of the story which is why I posted on here

 

Anybodys experiences gratefully recieved

 

Thanks

 

Towsey

[Viajero]

Thanks for all the info folks

 

One thing thats nagging me is, around me the .17 hmr is still popular. Granted, one place says they have had no ammo for about a year, and another has boxes of the stuff and different types that I have seen myself. And there are a few experienced shooters that still swear by the .17 hmr. But, I like to hear all sides of the story which is why I posted on here

 

Anybodys experiences gratefully recieved

 

Thanks

 

Towsey

I think 17HMR appears to be popular as there are so many around due to sales as when they were first introduced , today a lot of dealers would not thank you for one ,I heard one here say they have about the same value as a bamboo cane , 22LR is the best rimfire ever in my opinion , you cant get sub sonics for any other RF and there does not seem to be any sense in buying a RF rifle in a calibre that has a bad reputation, 22WMR are a great rabbit and fox round but unfortunately no sub sonics available .

[David Hancock]

Sold mine three years ago and wept. Such a good rifle. Such a good calibre in my experience.

 

If Brembo or Bosch had the same SAFETY issues due to a FAILED component, then there would be a worldwide recall.

 

The issue is still going on . . . . .

[Towsey]

Thanks for the input

 

There is 5 rfd's around me with varying ideas on my situation, going from one that has only had 50 rounds for the last year and says why have one if ya can't feed it. Another has about 3000 rounds and says him and his staff still like theirs but he has to just get wot ammo he can and when. Then another still sells more .17 hmr's than .22lr's and has recently taken delivery of 18000, yes, eighteen thousand rounds and says go for it cos they are getting deliveries through again.

 

I have chance of a hardly used 20" (thought it was 16 but it's 20) standard weight barrel, with mag and bore snake for £100, and I have a slot on my ticket, and to be honest I'm thinking of getting it just to try it for myself and if it turns out to be a pile of poo I haven't lost as much as buying a full setup, and even if it's good it won't get massive amounts of use so swapping the barrel and zeroing doesn't bother me. I find this hard to believe my self but I've had my barrel out twice as a bit of a test and I've not had to re-zero at all, not even a click! That wasn't wot I was expecting

 

Thanks again

 

Towsey

[Towsey]

Well people, bit the bullet today so to speak

 

Got the barrel mentioned above. I haven't had chance for a proper go yet but I fired 5 shots into a muck hill on one of my permissions on my way home...well, it fired all 5 with no blockages so that's a good start

 

Towsey

[gbal]

Towsey,

I hope it's fine-and adds another dimension to your shooting. Did it seem to group ok in your informal test shots?

 

If not,it's still the cheapest muck spreader around in agriculture! :-)

 

gbal

[Towsey]

All seems ok so far cheers

 

Only had about 40 shots through it so far, but once I got my zero and recorded how many clicks difference there was between the original .22lr barrel and the .17 hmr barrel I was quite impressed with its accuracy, at 100yds it was producing around half inch groups...until the barrel got mucky and they opened up to about an inch and half, well I presume that's wot it was, I haven't been back out yet. I did have one split neck from them tho. That was using Winchester 17gn ammo, I also have some Winchester 20gn hollow point and some federals to try

 

By the way, wot do you all advise for barrel cleaning. I've got a bore snake for taking out with me, will this be enough?

 

Thanks

 

Towsey

[VarmLR]

All seems ok so far cheers

 

Only had about 40 shots through it so far, but once I got my zero and recorded how many clicks difference there was between the original .22lr barrel and the .17 hmr barrel I was quite impressed with its accuracy, at 100yds it was producing around half inch groups...until the barrel got mucky and they opened up to about an inch and half, well I presume that's wot it was, I haven't been back out yet. I did have one split neck from them tho. That was using Winchester 17gn ammo, I also have some Winchester 20gn hollow point and some federals to try

 

By the way, wot do you all advise for barrel cleaning. I've got a bore snake for taking out with me, will this be enough?

 

Thanks

 

Towsey

 

Good luck trying to keep your groups consistent. One of the things I HATED about mine was that unless cleaned to bare metal every 30 to 50 rounds, groups opened up appreciably. That was further frustrated by inconsistencies in batches of ammo. I hope for your sake that some of these issues have now been resolved because I wasted more money on ammo and eventually gave up and returned to 22LR.

[Towsey]

Yeah I'm hoping it's ok too, this is why I just spend £100 on a hardly used barrel, mag, and a new boresnake, rather than shelling out for a complete setup just to find it was a waste of money

 

Cheers

 

Towsey