Which calibre please?

[Towsey]

Hi all

 

I'm thinking about getting something between a .22lr and .223. I've seen similar topics but not quite this one.

 

I've got a slot for .17hmr but I've never been a massive fan of the round and after reading and hearing nothing but bad press lately I'm doubtful about buying one. I'm after something with more range and accuracy (or consistency) than the .22lr that's more reliable than the .17hmr and preferably better in the wind. It would be nice to find something cheaper to feed, quieter, and a bit more 'area friendly' than a .223 and with ammo that's easy to find, if such a thing is out there. My knowledge of such calibres is limited so I'd be grateful for any advice. What is the actual reason for the level of noise that's made, is it one thing or a mixture of a few things

 

Thanks

 

Towsey

[Dalua]

I have nothing in my own cabinet between .22LR and .223 - but if I needed something I'd be thinking .22WMR or Hornet.

 

AFAIK the noise is partly the 'crack' of a supersonic bullet (mercifully absent from .22LR subs) and partly the result of lots of hot gas at high pressure emerging from the muzzle.

 

A moderator helps with the second part, and it seems to me in practice that less gas (i.e. lower powder charge) seems to equate to less bang.

[Kalahari]

I think either the 22 Hornet or 17 Hornet would do what you want. There are quite a few exotics out there, 17 Rem. 221 Fireball to name just two but they will be difficult and probsbly expensive to feed.

 

David.

[DW58]

I seem to recall an almost identical thread within the last couple of weeks - it went on for ages and unsurprisingly was inconclusive.

[Laurie]

There are lots of wildcats, especially in 20 cal, some of them very nice and easy to handload. (That's an issue in itself as you don't say whether handloading is an option or whether you're confined to factory products.)

 

There is only one 'factory twenty' - the 204 Ruger, now a bit out of fashion and therefore often seen s/h at keen prices. Flat shooting, light recoil, and an excellent pest round out to beyond 200 yards, (much more if you shoot in sheltered spots).

 

.17 and .22 Hornet, quiet little numbers with negligible recoil. The fairly new .17 version has been a modest success. I've never shot one but users I've spoken to say 'great cartridge' but murdered by wind much beyond 100 yards.

 

So that leaves the .22 centrefires - 222 and 223 Rem, .22-250 Rem, the last named decidedly 'hot' for a factory round. .222 is a really lovely little cartridge and there are still many nice rifles around for it. Not many being made new now, but barrels last a long time so there are secondhand examples, sometimes real bargains, still in good condition. 223 Rem offers more choice of both rifle, configuration, heavy/skinny barrel etc, etc, than all the rest put together, and likewise the widest choice (and most affordable too) factory ammo if you don't handload. Unlike the others has milspec (good milspec too in the form of GGG) for cheap range use.

[Towsey]

Hmm cheers people

 

Their just about the calibres I was expecting. I was already thinking it would be either .22wmr, .22hornet, or, I do like the sound of the .204 Ruger, but why is it going out of fashion? Is the .22wmr not ballistically 'out of date' or is it consistently accurate? I want something that's ok out to 300yds depending on weather really, it has to go out past 200 to make it worth having. How much difference is there between .22 hornet and the 204 compared to a .223, and, am I right to doubt the .17hmr

 

Sorry for all the questions

 

Thanks again

 

Towsey

[Chris-NZ]

They still sell quite a few .204s in New Zealand and I'm very impressed with how my gunsmith mate's one (a Tikka Varmint) performs, both in accuracy and on-game performance. Impressive red mist factor with the 39s. He's nailed many a rabbit past 300yds when I've been there. As Laurie says, wind is always the enemy of these small pills at range.

 

I once had a Hornet on the logic you've mentioned but eventually sold it and just stick with a suppressed .223. Hornets can be very frustrating to get to shoot accurately and are far less forgiving in that respect than most other chamberings.

 

If you decide you must have something different, an interesting option is the .20 Practical. You simply run a .223 through the sizing die and voila! Pretty much the same as a .204 but brass will be way cheaper and easier to get.

[Tom D]

20 practical or 20 Vartarg, the Vartarg is a 221 fireball case run through a Vartarg die, dead easy too. Very quiet for a centre fire, and good ballistics..

[Dalua]

I want something that's ok out to 300yds depending on weather really, it has to go out past 200 to make it worth having.

I don't think I'd pick something less than .223 to meet these parameters.

 

I must admit that I've no experience of c/f .17 or .20 rifles. My main reason for not bothering with those is the need for additional cleaning kit.

[tackb]

I have a 22wmr , it's a 150m tool tops

[treetop]

17 hornet is great !

There not that bad in the wind & follow a similar arc to a .223

I only use 20 grain vmax in home loads with IMR 4227 , mine are doing about 3550 fps

It's a very capable round & it has become my ' go to' rifle for all rabbit , I have & do take them out to 250yards with a photon NV.

 

Good luck on what ever you choose.

[Towsey]

Thanks for all the info

 

.17 hornet crossed my mind, I know someone with one and he loves it. I also looked at the .20 vartarg but I know nothing about it. I find trajectory more predictable than wind and I'm happy to spend time seeing how a round performs, which is the reason I'm thinking a bit bigger/heavier than .17 but if a .17 hornet is faster thus spending less time being deflected by wind then it might get thrown in the hat

 

It's mainly for those corvids that take too much getting near with the .22lr, and a few rabbits, pigeons etc, the usual stuff I sort of don't want to over gun with a .223. It would be nice to be able to drop the odd fox if it's all I've got with me and I could set a good shot up tho

 

Towsey

[baldie]

.204 ruger.

 

Its still a good seller, both here and especially in the states. They love it for prairie dogging.

 

I killed an unbelievable count of foxes with mine in the 5 years or so I owned one. I don't live shoot anymore, but if I did, it would be a .20 cal for sure. The best round I ever used on the lamp. Laser flat.

 

Ammo is readily available. Easy to load for too.

[bewsh]

I'm after something with more range and accuracy (or consistency) than the .22lr

that's more reliable than the .17hmr

preferably better in the wind.

It would be nice to find something cheaper to feed,

quieter,

and a bit more 'area friendly' than a .223 and

with ammo that's easy to find,

 

"smaller" than a .223 with more range and better BC than a .17

thats cheap to feed on factory ammo easily found in gun shops in North Yorkshire.

 

factory .204 as said above is pretty much the best and only option from your spec

 

http://www.kirklees-guns.co.uk/common-sporting-centerfire-ammunition.html

 

92p a pop for 32 and 40gr Vmax

 

if your shots fired are low thats cheaper than you could reload the first few hunred rounds

you could even sell on your once fired brass to the numerous reloaders and get that down further!

[gbal]

Towsey,probably quite a few of us have been on this quest....choice is better these days,though it's hard to be completely prescriptive about local supplies of ammo...

 

22WRF mag- as tackb-it's at best a 125-150 cartridge -I've had three,inc Anschutz and HK-accuracy was not very impressive-about 22lr level-which isn't good enough typically beyond 100y,the semi HK did give follow upshots-as needed! It's a "NO"

 

17HMR-initially tempting,but it's quite limited in range-150-175 (?) but is let down by poor ammo quality-lots of disappointed ex users...so another "NO"

 

17 Hornet-more promising-advertised as similar trajectory to 55g 223,which is true,but it is noticeably more affected by wind...which is the general issue with most cartridges once we get beyond 100y or so....the faster cartridges reduce the error....the modern loaded 17Hornet really is a different proposition from the old 22Hornet (which is a 150 y number,with variable accuracy,so a 'no').The 17H is worth considering,less so as range increases....

 

17Rem still the king of the hill in 17s,essentially a necked down 223. Despite the wonderful 222,the 17rem was my favourite in useages close to yours. Ammo usually available.Fits the bill,"YES"

The Fireballs,221 and 17 are 'just' shortened/necked 222s and have just a bit less performance,and can be very hard to source,so a bit niche and therefore "no".

 

204Ruger: best of the 20s,full stop. Available since 2004,popular so ammo should not be an issue;and it's a 300y varminter.(essentially its a 222mag/223 necked down),somewhat flatter,but because it's close to 223,it's only a good "yes"-to 300y there is a lot of overlap with light bullet 223.

 

All wildcats/exotics are "NO" despite the ballistics etc of the .20 Vartags,or 223Pract/tact (necked 223) and 22PPC,22BR etc -lack of factory ammo,or other complications,rule them out,without any real advantages to compensate for your stated useages-and availability (nationally,not just god's own county).

 

22/250 is a potent varminter, up a step from 223,but commercially available eg 40gvmax@4150 fps ,1529 ft lb and is -4.5/10.6 at 300y,,,,

 

"Bang" is roughly proportional to weight of powder burned;moderators reduce it of course;we don't really know what quarry think,but in my experience they react similarly to all the above (the ones that still can,that is).Energy levels are adequate for the 'yes' options,though eg for fox,the 17H has a lot less than the 223.

These (much less wind affected) cfs are much more consistent (group better) than rfs as distance increases and of course are very effective at 100y too....very!

 

Drop is fixed by gravity for the same loading in a particular cartridge,so is predictable-given laser ranging-essential. As you note,wind drift is a totally different ball game-while the effect is predictable in steady conditions,that's the problem-we have no good means of measuring wind all the way to target (Kestrel does it well for muzzle),and it may well vary enroute to target and at target-errors in estimation are inevitable...let alone changes while bullet is in flight (limited effect at 100y with high MV).

 

One guidline is to accept a human error of 1/3 for wind estimate and consider what that means for a particular sized target at known distance...often it means that error alone will put the bullet outside/marginal to acceptable hit zone-and any other error (wobble etc) still has to added in...few shots are perfect in the field. Look at the 223 data below,at 300y a 10 mph wind estimated at 7 (or 13) mph is going to show an impact error of 4 inches-that's a clear miss on a crow,and very iffy on a rabbit...even with an otherwise perfect shot!

 

OK-here are some data for the contenders; drop/drift" at 100,200zero,300y in 10 mph wind,all with good factory ammo:

 

223 40g Vmax@3800fps ME 1282 ft lb 100y .9/1.2 200 0/5 300 -5.5/11.9 (17H has more drift,remember)

 

17 Rem 25g@4040 fps,906 ft lb 100 .8/1.1 200 0/4.8 300 -5.5/11.7

 

204R 32g@4030 fps,1155 ft lb 100 .7/1.0 200 0/4.4 300 -4.7/10.6

 

 

The 22Hornet 35@3100fps 747 ft lb 100 2.8/2.9 200 0/13.5 300 17.1/36.1 isn't in it,at all

 

222Rem 40vmax@3600fps 1156 ft 100 1.1/1.2 200 o/5.2 -6.4/12.6 is just too close to 223

 

Do check the 17Hornet though,I don't have commercial ammo data,it is genuinely somewhere in the mix,esp for 200y,has more modest noise etc BUT drift is a limiter (adverts do not mention this!!).

Not much in it otherwise for costs etc,within your stated performance etc envelope-you would need to be shooting a lot for ammo costs to be critical-and the price is less performance-beyond 200y,you will notice such loss in performance.

 

gbal

[Tom D]

This is a good article on the .20's..

http://www.accurateshooter.com/cartridge-guides/20caliber/

[gunner]

Something in between 22LR an 223 rem ? Id say you should be looking at wildcats , but very few do as there just too much hassle , but some inbetweeners would be

17 squirrel

22tcm / or better a 17 or 20 version ,

17 ccm - discontinued / slightly larger hmr .

218 bee .20 or .17 version

Its a great shame the wildcats arnt more popular . See for my thinking if you got a 17 hornet its trajectory is the same as 223 rem , but noticeable quiter , less prone to richochet , would you still use the 223 rem ? Doubt it , same for 204 that is a step up from 223 rem i recon , but sorry not really helpful here , atb with you searches .........

[Towsey]

This is great!

 

Really liking all the help, I'm thinking its maybe time to see what Ammo is available around me, and price, then start thinking about putting in for a one-for-one and get rid of my .17hmr slot

 

So what twist rates, barrel length and barrel life should I be looking at from some of the things that have been mentioned?

 

Thanks again

 

Towsey

[gbal]

Towsey,

WEall like to help/give advice and it's fascinating to widen horizons...IF you really are restricted/compromised/ have life made easy by the conditions you mentioned (factory and local ammo and 300y vermin etc etc) then that is where to focus realistically-as you say,se what is actually available locally.

All the exotica mentioned are not the way to go-fascinating though they might be-and i have a few myself-but if you can't buy ammo locally,and these exotica really are no better than factory cartridges-well,you see whee that goes....(for now anyhiow).

 

I wouldn't get too much into detail of eg twist rate-ubtil you have shortlisted psossible cartridges-and there won't be that many realistically.

 

Meanwhile I'm all for research and finding out-why not browse the Accurate Shooter" site,under the variuos cartridges listed-that will give a good idea of how complicated this can all get-but need not. Accurate shooter is USoriented,and 'state of the art' sometimes-you don't need a custom wildcat to have an accurate 300y varmint rifle you can feed easily.

(eg-no holds barred,a custom 6PPC will beat anything for precision shooting to 300y,but we are talking about 1/4 moa-compared to a factory Sako which will better 1/2 moa inPPC,and no varmint will know the difference-and be way under 1/2 cost-but you won't get ammo of the shelf ....you should for the 204Ruger....and a good one of those will do all you want...as will your 223....

A realistic ballistic intermediate is the 17Hornet-though you might have to pass on the 300y shots...

I used to carry two rifles....not for long....the 17 rem came to do it all -now I'd carry a Sako PPC and be confident of the best all round/out to 300y varmint rig available (well scoped) under £2K...though I handload.

There is a good reason the exotica remain so-and a good reason some once wildcats get factory adopted-they just work,with minimum fuss.Even if your local has not got PPC on shelf (eg) it can be ordered in....which is NOT true of the wonderful .185 /4500 RookRabbiter semi magnum.(185 is caliber,4500 is fps)...and yes it would be uber effective....but in reality no more so than more accessible numbers.... strictly for the conosur/affictionado (even if he can't spell-not relevant).

 

See the ballistic data in my previous post....there isn't much in it-given individual rifles,let alone ammo varies a bit.

Check the dream numbers,but very few really merit a place in the practical line up-delightful though they are ( the ".185-semi mag AI ( Almost Improved) is not for sale,though it's in virtual unfired condition...guess why! :-)

 

The 17HMR is inferior to the 17Hornet,as a viable intermediate cartridge betwee 22rf (75y) and 223 250y)-

I should have added distances reflect 80%+ confidence in hits,not the 1 in 3 hits of some advocates of unethical PBS. 300y -or a bit less- is doable with a few available factory options,in good conditions.

 

gbal

[Towsey]

Sorry not replied, not been ignorant just busy.

 

I THINK my shortlist is something like as follows

- .17 rem, il look into it but doubtful

- .17 hornet, maybe

- .20 vartarg/practical/tactical, I like the sound of but need to learn more but doubt it

- .204 ruger, top of the list, I like the sound of this round and I think it ticks all my boxes, even if I run 2 different loads through it.

 

I haven't had chance to go round the 5 gun shops I use round me but I'm sure when I do it will narrow my search down a bit.

 

So what about barrel length, life and twist on, let's say, 17 hornet, 20 vartarg and a 204 ruger?

 

Thanks

 

Towsey

[VarmLR]

You haven't said what you want the rifle for. That would help establish ballistics needed.

 

However, for out to a few hundred yards for vermin control or plinking, take your pick from 222 or 223...nothing much more widely available nor more accurate at those distances nor cheaper to feed on CF.

 

Gaining popularity in the field amongst shooters I know but possibly ammo availability not quite as widespread look at .204 Ruger or .17 Remington.

 

As Laurie has already said, for shear versatility and affordability, it's still hard to see past a good .222 or .223. I shoot a .223 at ranges varying between 50 and 450 yards, home load (cheaply) and it's a great calibre with a very wide ammo choice, with low recoil and can be effectively moderated. Go for a faster twist and it opens out a wider range of ammo choice. Forget "flat shooting" as a primary concern unless you mostly shoot at night when one of the fast shooting wild card rounds have a larger MPBR. I also have a 22wmr. It stays in the cabinet most of the time. The 223 does everything needed of a 22wmr, just better.

[Chris-NZ]

You might be stretching things saying 17 Rem is gaining in popularity. It's actually a rather old cartridge, in fact, my brother had one over 35yrs ago. I'd take a .20 over a bigger 17 any day.

[VarmLR]

It's gaining popularity amongst shooters I know, which isn't the same thing as more generally Chris (to be fair, I did say that). There's been a move away from 22 CF cals to 20 cal and 17 CFs recently by many I know who use the rounds for vermin control. The main reason, especially with the .204, is for night time fox control where calling ranges with any accuracy on slower shooting rounds is less certain so the flatter shooting rounds out to 300 yds seems to be where they're going. For daytime use, the .223 still seems to be very popular.

[gbal]

Flatish and a tad more flatish? All SAAMI ammo (best available),drop/drift" in 10 mph wind :

 

17 Rem 25@4040 100y .8/1.1 200y 0/4.8 300y -5/11.7 and 325 ftlb

 

222Rem 40@3450 100 1.2/1.2 200 0/4.9 300 -6.5/11.9 and 425 ft lb

 

223Rem 40@ 3700 100 1.0/1.1 200 0/4.5 300 -8.0/10.8 and 500 ft lb

 

204Ruger 40@3900 100 .7/.8 200 0/3.3 300 -4.3/7.8 and 674 ft lb

 

22/50 Rem 40@ 4150 100 .6/.9 200 0/4.0 300 -4.2/9.5 and 645 ft lb

 

 

17 Hornet is "like 55g 223" in drop to about 200y -for the 55/223 that's 0/4.6 ,but remember the 17H will drift more (which H does not mention...) and at 300 the 55/223 is -7/10.9 with the 17H considerably poorer in both drop/drift..... so struggling in vain-it's a little,if efficient case,to be in this league beyond 200yds?

 

There isn't a lot in it,especially at 200y (an inch) though by 300 that's more like 3 inches for drop.

 

Of course there are differnces in recoil,noise-but moderators reduce all this.

 

"you" don't need a 20ruger/22250 at 200y,but by 300y "you" might appreciate their advantage (especially in the dark,when range is difficult to measure exactly.....).

 

This is the classic 222 V 22/250 debate,with pretty much the same answers,and 50 years of confirming experience. The 243 with 58g pretty well beats the lot,but it isn't a ...PPC,BR etc etc... and for some,just less pleasant (recoil,loss of sight picture). I like 'em all.

 

More choices,yes-but much better choices.....err....only in the marginals/decimals (or fashion,fancy etc which is fine,if not confused too much with performance.)

 

gbal

[Towsey]

Cheers for replies

 

VarmLR if ya start at the beginning I think I put most of the info in there somewhere

 

I'm liking the idea of a 204 more and more. Does anyone have any info on barrel length, life and twist please

 

Thanks

 

Towsey