What to do? Small calibre bunny gun

[njc110381]

Hi guys. I've been away from the forum for some time because I couldn't get it to work! A mate just told me it was my ad blocker, so that was simple and I'm back.... Looking for advice!

 

I have a CZ527. I've had it a long time and we have some history together so I'm loathed to sell it again. I sold it once and bought it back! It did 7000 rounds as a .22 Hornet before I had it rebarrelled in .17 Hornady. Since then it's fired maybe 100 rounds, and I don't like it. The cases are awkward, don't last well and don't feed well either. So I'm left with a dilemma.

 

I have a good .17 barrel and a good short action. What can I rework the gun into? I understand the bolt and magazine issues, but I think they're easy to overcome? So I'm looking at .17 Fireball. Good move? All I shoot with it is rabbits that the .22lr can't reach and a few foxes. The .17H could do with a bit more grunt for the foxes ideally but it's ok. I'm thinking the Fireball may bring that to the table quite nicely? I could go .17 Rem but is there any advantage? Or anything else out there that I've missed?

 

I'm happy to go wildcat but it must feed nicely and not be too long for the magazine. So what do you think? I'd really appreciate your thoughts!

[gbal]

The 17rem will give maybe an extra 25 yards (like 275 v 250) compared to the 17 Fireball,and a little more energy.But there isn't a lot in it for your purposes.Either would be fine ballistically,and better than most.

Fireball brass is probably less available,and maybe loaded ammo too....not an issue for a handloder,once set up.

A few wildcats,but really it's all about the barrel accuracy,and you have your barrel,so the complications of a wildcat offer little in exchange in this case. 17H -as you note,less reliable with distance,and fox-but fits.

 

Putting your query the other way round,what disadvantage does the 17rem have?

Enjoy your project choice!

 

gbal

[dave thorniley]

17 rem anyday, it will do anything out there in reason, easy to load, brass bullets widely available, no brainer

[247sniper]

You won't be able use you current action for a .17 fireball nor the .17 Rem buddy as it's a different size bolt face.

 

What about another Hornet with a modified mag to feed the 40 grain Vmax. Or have a look at the K - Hornet for the little extra velocity and energy.

 

Steve

[njc110381]

Thanks chaps. I'll see what reamers my smith has to hand.

 

Regarding the bolt face, I'll just change the bolt. I was thinking buy a donor .222 or .223, swap bolt and mag, sell as donor Hornet. As far as I'm aware the bolt is the same other than the face on the 527 so that swap should be easy? A bit of a faff but I get to keep the main part of the gun that's so important to me.

[gbal]

njc, there are a whole slew of 17 wildcats-mostly on small cases,and sub hornet is too small for your needs.

I should have added the 17PPC to the 17 Rem and 17 Fireball-though if the conversion is possible for any,the limiter might be just what reamers are available. I can't imagine the PPC will feed as reliably as the standard 17Rem does-as the 17Rem is very close to a necked 223 (or stretched 222mag),and I found it flawless in it's standard Rem 700 model.

 

Read all about them on "Accurate Shooter " site-they have a good set of cartridges covered-then you can be reasonably confident you have the right one for you (remember though it's USA -and availability over here for the exotica is poor -though I doubt you'll be very likely to want one really,when you realise the factory daddy -17Rem-looks the business (and has the track record over the years).

Check out current thread on here too (17Rem on light/cheap bullets,though the standard 25g have the 17 bullet edge in any wind)-about 5/11 inches at 200/300 y in a 10mph wind (223 with 40g is5/12";204 40g 3.5/10....so all are really close 'in the field'-just to put it in perspective.)

 

g

[njc110381]

I wouldn't want to go too small. I think the Hornet based rounds are a little on the small side, as the gun is a very confident bunny basher but can lack on foxes if the shoulder is clipped. I suppose any .17 will suffer with that, but a slightly heavier bullet must help.

 

I'm pretty sure I will go with a .17 Rem. Reading back through the email chat with my smith he was building one a few months back, which suggests that he will have a reamer for it. All I need to work out now is how easy it will be to swap the bolt over? I see no reason why it won't go as no maker would make unnecessary changes to an action for the sake of it. I'd expect a 527 to be a 527, and that's that?!

 

There's probably someone out there somewhere wanting to make a Hornet wildcat but has a .223 bolt face. We need to find each other!

[triggersqueezer]

17 hornet is no slouch.aneal the brass and single feed of a bob sled .

[njc110381]

No slouch at all. I certainly wouldn't want to catch one in my teeth! It's the thin brass that annoys me though - always has to a degree.

 

My problem is that this gun sits between my .22lr and 6.5x55. I'd like it to have just a bit more ability with the heavier bullets than the .17 Hornet. Enough grunt to fire a 30gr at the sort of speed the Hornet does with a 20gr. In a perfect world I'd probably keep the Hornet and buy a .22-250, but my collection is big enough already!

[triggersqueezer]

if you want 30 grn you might just as well go .204.the fireball is quiet and great fun to shoot and imo worth the work to make the brass.

[Tom D]

I'd go with that, the .20 fireball aka Vartarg it chucks the 32gn bullets at around 3750 fps, maybe a little quicker. It will chuck the 26gn varmint grenade at around 4000 fps.. You can also use the 40gn bullets for foxes.

[njc110381]

I had looked at that. But for now I have a little used .17 barrel that can be made into anything with a larger chamber than a Hornet. Money is a bit tight at the moment unfortunately, so making use of what I have makes sense. I'll shoot the gun out again for sure, so there's always next time for a .20

 

The PPC looks good, but who's idea was it to make it on that case head size?! Which bolt face would you use?

[gbal]

PPC-credit the Russians-look up the (6) PPC on Accurate Shooter for the development of the PPC by Palmissano and Pinder from the Russian Military round (7.62x39) via the russian 22 running boar cartridge.

It was just the right configuration for short range bench rest (short and fat and fast enough,low recoil)-especially as 6PPC,though also 22PPC...and of course necked down by varminters to 17PPC.

As a dedicated BR rifle,'odd' bolt was no problem,given it's the winningest BR 100/200 y cartridge ever......and the donor rifle might need some work anyhow....?

I added it for completeness-while it has great accuracy heritage,overall it isn't as plain useable without fuss as the 17Rem...but then nothing is (given a 17 barrel,as the OP reminds us, especially if fox is on the list,and it is.)It's not the best fox cartridge,but it's the best 17 fox cartridge-30g bullets were an option too.

 

gbal

[stillair1]

Hi, as a fireball owner,I can advise you that .17 fireball brass is na. Should any appear on the market there would be an unsightly Harrods boxing day style rush to get some.

Currently you would need to neck down .221 cases for brass, as it was in the early wildcat days.

.17 rem would be less faff.

[chaz]

You won't be able use you current action for a .17 fireball nor the .17 Rem buddy as it's a different size bolt face.

 

What about another Hornet with a modified mag to feed the 40 grain Vmax. Or have a look at the K - Hornet for the little extra velocity and energy.

 

Steve

I've not read all the posts, but imo, that seems the way to go...

[gbal]

Consider the .577 Tyrannosaur: unlike some suggestions which ignore only one or two,this one actually breaks nay smashes to smitherines,every single desiderata the OP mentions.( summary :17 calibre,money tight and for bunnies/rabbit,more grunt than17H's 20@3650;Hornet based case too small,esp for fox,and don't like it.)

 

This proprietary 577 beauty functions through a standard action,will cost big money,and at 177g/750 g ammo is seriously expensive;it is not 17 cal;it has much more grunt than any Hornet,around 10,000 ft lb : you won't get it on FAC for bunnies and fox.Or anything else in UK. Or Tyrannosaurs anywhere.

.Basically,you wouldn't be firing it anytime soon.....

 

....so meanwhile,can someone check with a competent smith just what can be done with the 17H (Hornady Hornet?) 17 retained barrel potential donor CZ rifle within the OP's constraints,and once we know what is possible,having established definitely what is not,we can be more helpful.

Please. :-)

[gunner]

No slouch at all. I certainly wouldn't want to catch one in my teeth! It's the thin brass that annoys me though - always has to a degree.

 

My problem is that this gun sits between my .22lr and 6.5x55. I'd like it to have just a bit more ability with the heavier bullets than the .17 Hornet. Enough grunt to fire a 30gr at the sort of speed the Hornet does with a 20gr. In a perfect world I'd probably keep the Hornet and buy a .22-250, but my collection is big enough already!

Rimmed Hornet brass was the parent case for my next wildcat but dasherman talked me out of it because of the thin split prone brass. Now im planning to use 223 lapua as parent case , and forming dies to form a short version of the 17rem keeping the same shoulder angle and long neck . To aid accuracy and keep the short case as long as possible , hopefully i can form the cases down to 22tcm size / length , then itl be custom chamber and seater reamer ordering time off topic slightly - sorry but excited

[njc110381]

Right, an update...

 

I went to visit my gunsmith today for a little chat. I was there all day in the end talking about all sorts of stuff, and he even gave me a short welding lesson too! Back to the gun, we covered that my .17 Hornet is actually a bloody fine rifle, and I would be a fool to mess with it. Next was a look through the stock of actions for something suitable, and a tidy looking 527 action in a laminate stock appeared. Shortly followed by a very little used .17 Rem barrel that was pulled off of another action when the owner found out it wasn't allowed on his local club range.

 

So, I'm buying the second action, getting the ready chambered barrel fitted to it and screwcut, and I'll still have a fairly cheap .17 Rem to have a go at. I can then mess with my .17 Hornet until I shoot it out enough to justify binning it. Then I'll turn it back into something else that's interesting, probably a Taranah Hornet or a .20 Vartarg, which is what I should have done in the first place! As for the .17 Rem - well that's not going to last for ever either, so if it doesn't work for me I can try something new on that one soon enough too.

 

Last of all, the replies above really did give me a smile or two. That and some good advice. I'm glad I figured out how to use the forum again - I've missed it here!

[gunner]

Forgot to say welcome back lol. Just dont go away again

[activeviii]

Forgot to say welcome back lol. Just dont go away again

 

Last of all, the replies above really did give me a smile or two. That and some good advice. I'm glad I figured out how to use the forum again - I've missed it here!

 

Tim - Neil, Neil - Tim

 

About time you to got together and had a chat on the 17's as I'm getting it in stereo every time I'm out with either of you. So much so I'm almost having to phone dasherman to have one built, which I really can't afford to do again this year.

[gbal]

njc,glad it's sorted for now- seems like the 527 has an action for the 223 class,and separate one for Hornet.

Anyhow,wearing out a 17Rem barrel will bring much joy.

 

Looking ahead,for anyone interested,the Taranah Hornet is no Tyrannasurus hammer,but...

 

It's essentially the K Hornet shortened by about .15" (the K hornet itself being an improved a bit Hornet) introduced by Andy Montgomery in the Aussie 'Guns and Game' magazine no 27,in Jul-Sept,2000.

The idea is to allow loading of ballistically superior bullets,like the 40g Nosler Bal Tip@2800,claimed;or the older Speer 50g SP @2500ish-presumably for more knock down?

But still fit the 527 Hornet magazine.

 

Why not-even if someone invents the 222....which could be a useful accurate cartridge....

And work in all the 223 actions. :-)

What fun!

 

gbal

[njc110381]

Cheers Phil. I had a feeling that was the case but wasn't sure.

 

It is great that we have so many choices of what to shoot these days. Being a real Hornet fan I would like to always have one in some form. I did an awful lot of shooting with a standard spec .22 version for a few years and the number of rounds I put down that probably exceed all the other cartridges I've used put together! Excluding .22lr maybe.

 

The Taranah Hornet looks to be a very clever idea. Shooters often use the Hornet as a single shot rifle and load 40gr V-Max or similar tipped bullets. Lets face it the Hornet specific bullets are about as aerodynamic as a brick so anything to help with the already low power is a good thing. The brass does seem to be quite acceptable until you start bottle necking it. I had very few issues with mine in standard form and it was lovely to shoot. It was never a one hole group gun but my longest head shot on a rabbit with it was 250 yards. Good enough for a walking about gun.

 

Back to the .17, I'm not 100% set on the .17 Rem but will give it a go. I can't help but want a Fireball. I've always wanted one of those. Maybe I'll ask how easy it would be to chop the back of the chamber off to make it happen?!

[njc110381]

Well it's settled. I'm having a .17 Rem built. Variation is in, gunsmith has his instructions.

 

Now, brass. I don't suppose anyone here has any they'd care to sell to me? Not the easiest stuff to come by it seems, although at least a couple of people make it. My dies have arrived and I tried necking down some .223 brass - it necked down fine but to 44mm OAL, and I need 45.8. I turned it into a dummy round and left it at that! So I'm left with buying Nosler I think at £1 per case. I assume Nosler brass is half decent stuff? If not, any preferences?

 

Bullet wise it seems that most shooters go with 25gr, either V-Max or Berger. Hornady HP doesn't seem to have a huge following. Apparently it's a little bit on the tough side? If the gun agrees with me I think I'll go Berger Varmint - they were stunning in my .223 and I've liked them ever since.

 

Powder, I have Varget, H335, H414, Viht N-140... All around the right ballpark. To be tight I'm going to start off with H335 as it's the lowest charge weight for good velocity. For every four shots I get a free one with that!