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22LR Accuracy Expectation Challenge - 3 consecutive 5 shot groups - Post Photos

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This is my 2nd cz 455 after the first was accepted back as faulty by Edgar brothers, but this one is not much better, it's hard to believe that one man got 2 bad cz's in a row I know but I can get good groups with my mates rifles...annoying to say the least

 

Well this what we're talking about - Everyone with a CZ can shoot sub 1" groups at 100 yards "all day long" until it comes to posting actual targets with two or three consecutive groups on the same sheet, flyers and all, then they suddenly don't seem so common.

 

The group there with the CCI hp subs is very respectable, remember this is hunting ammunition, not match ammunition - but, just as we've been saying, one good group really isn't enough to establish consistency, shoot two or three more on the same card and measure them. Once you have some base line data you can see if shooting from rest is any better than the bi-pod etc.

 

This is not my shooting. This was grabbed from the Accurate shooter ammunition trials

.http://www.accurateshooter.com/guns-of-week/22lr-rimfire-ammo-comparison-test/

 

This is with a very upmarket target rifle/scope, some expensive ammunition, shot from a solid bench in a tunnel range, fitted with a barrel tuner and an experienced benchrest shooter.

 

.Snap_2016.08.20_11h00m47s_001_zpsi1oqzdj

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That is pretty much the same results as I got from my very expensive target rifle in windless conditions at 100m using Tenex.

 

Having seen it first hand and now in what appears to be a well run test, I'd say that is about as good as .22lr can do at 100m.

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Yes I know what you mean, that's why I'm liking this thread, to hopefully get some real world info.

 

I would like to give my rifle to someone who could try things like a bench rest, match ammo, single shot adaptor etc just to see what the rifle itself is capable of and how much of it is other variable stuff like me and ammo. I went round the 5 gun shops within a 20 mile radius of home and apart from RWS hp subs which I'm now out of and that this rifle dint really like, these are all there is around us

 

Cheers

 

Towsey

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That is pretty much the same results as I got from my very expensive target rifle in windless conditions at 100m using Tenex.

 

Having seen it first hand and now in what appears to be a well run test, I'd say that is about as good as .22lr can do at 100m.

 

Yup. 0.7MOA at 100 appears to be 22LR limit - and that's with the best target rifles, the best ammo and in a windless tunnel, not with a sporter CZ with HPs!

 

Although there was the excellent target from Onehole's anschutz, I think Alan, summarises the sporter situation:

 

 

Well this what we're talking about - Everyone with a CZ can shoot sub 1" groups at 100 yards "all day long" until it comes to posting actual targets with two or three consecutive groups on the same sheet, flyers and all, then they suddenly don't seem so common.

 

 

 

Would be great to see some more representative targets:

 

3 consecutive 5-shot groups on the same piece of paper :)

 

"flyers and all" !

 

 

(And, Towsey - that CCI group is excellent, that rifle's fine).

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Yup. 0.7MOA at 100 appears to be 22LR limit - and that's with the best target rifles, the best ammo and in a windless tunnel, not with a sporter CZ with HPs!

 

Although there was the excellent target from Onehole's anschutz, I think Alan, summarises the sporter situation:

 

 

Would be great to see some more representative targets:

 

3 consecutive 5-shot groups on the same piece of paper :)

 

"flyers and all" !

 

 

(And, Towsey - that CCI group is excellent, that rifle's fine).

 

Why 3 or 5 shots?

Most competitions require at least 10 shots for record, so that's your group right there

Groups are only representative anyway, so are you going to enter your county Smallbore league and go up against others Mano a Mano?

 

I never believe what people say about their groups and abilities, until I see it myself.

That was proved at the 1st big RBL match when all the 6/6.5ers went home having been trounced by a 16" AR in .223 and a std Rem700 PSS in .308

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Why 3 or 5 shots?

Most competitions require at least 10 shots for record, so that's your group right there

Groups are only representative anyway, so are you going to enter your county Smallbore league and go up against others Mano a Mano?

 

I never believe what people say about their groups and abilities, until I see it myself.

That was proved at the 1st big RBL match when all the 6/6.5ers went home having been trounced by a 16" AR in .223 and a std Rem700 PSS in .308

I remember it well :-)

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Thanks for that Brown dog. At least if I know it's me or another variable then I have something to work at and I'm not just wasting time because of the rifles poor performance, even tho I shoot fine with my other stuff and other people's...maybe I just haven't found the ideal ammo for this thing yet, does anyone do sample packs by any chance?

 

Thanks again

 

Towsey

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Why 3 or 5 shots?

 

Doesn't say that...and the rationale is chuff all to do with competition, see title of thread and first post.

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That was proved at the 1st big RBL match when all the 6/6.5ers went home having been trounced by a 16" AR in .223 and a std Rem700 PSS in .308

 

A match where a bunch of non-Bisleyers shoot on the range whose nuances and every wind you've learnt shooting on the same lanes every week for over a decade? Yes, that level playing field :lol::)

 

At least if I know it's me or another variable then I have something to work at and I'm not just wasting time because of the rifles poor performance, even tho I shoot fine with my other stuff and other people's...

 

That CCI group looks about 0.6"ish at 50m - I think this thread seems to be showing, that when people don't cherry pick one group, or discount flyers that don't suit their fancy, 0.6" - or around 1 MOA- at 50m is a reasonable accuracy expectation for what one can repeatably get with a decent 22 with decent ammo. More than that seems to require match rifles and/or ammo....or is, perhaps, not repeatable -hence my interest in 3 consecutive groups each of five shots at a stated shooting distance ...and a photo of said groups (- didn't happen if there isn't a photo!)

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Reminder of the purpose of the thread:

 

Related to this thread: link

 

I'm always a little frustrated with 22LR accuracy - particularly when I read of others claiming tiny bughole groups at long ranges.

 

 

So, for mutual group education, and based on the premise that "If there isn't a photo, it didn't happen"

 

I'd like to ask people to post photos of 3 x 5 shot groups shot consecutively, on the same piece of paper at a stated range.

 

I'll kick off with this from 1066 (posted in the other thread) Eley HP at 68yds. As Alan said, it'd be easy to cherry pick the two best groups, but, it's the whole target that describes the reality of 22LR.

 

attachicon.gif1066 22 group.png

 

 

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I have been watching this, and I think its very interesting (perhaps a little myth-busting). Hoping to get to the woods today to produce some groups for record - results so far seem in line with what my rifles seem capable of.

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A match where a bunch of non-Bisleyers shoot on the range whose nuances and every wind you've learnt shooting on the same lanes every week for over a decade? Yes, that level playing field :lol::)

 

I cannot speak for the other winner but I can say I am not there every week and I do not practice. Nor have I ever had any coaching apart from a few range days in the TA in the 1980s.

 

The matches themselves are my only practice.

 

Funnily enough though, the "I can shoot .25moa all day" types failed to attend and show us how its done.

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Check out the reference given in 1066's post to the Accyurate shooter 22 ammo tests.

(the target shown is far from the best-lots of different brands were shot (5x5 shot aggregates) and there were large differneces in performance-as the test shooter oobserved,from outstandingly good to frankly,poor. One rifle of course,and a Bleiker....

 

At 50 yards the top 5 are in the .1s

 

At 75 yards the top three are in the .2s

 

At 100 yards the top 11 are in the .6s

 

There is a long deteriorating tail back from the consistent best ammo.

But the best ammo is consistently excellent,while there is clearly large variations in consistency within the less good performers in other brands.

Looks like you get what you pay for,which is not tthe same as saying you must have the very best/expensive for informal shooting in a non Bleiker class rifle.

And yes,it's not remotely under 'field' conditions-though there is no reason to suspect the laws of physics are different there,and something very close to rank orders would be preserved,though groups would be somewhat larger generally.

It is worth noting that the poor performers could probably do it 'all day ,every day'-that's relatively easy to achieve. The best seem able to do be excellent for 5x5 aggregates. Sets the standard,pretty well.

 

gbal

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Last year I went down to Bisley with my Anschutz 2213 to batch test lapua ammo. For a full report on what went on: http://blog.stegough.com/batch-testing-lapua-22lr-ammunition-at-lord-roberts-centre-bisley/

 

but for the results on the rifle - put into a machine rest at 50 metres:

 

Centre-x : 10 shot groups:

results1-720x1024.jpg

 

results2-945x780.jpg

 

And a few groups of Midas (more expensive) not all 10 shot groups as the group size opened up with all batches of it.

 

results-3-945x914.jpg

 

 

I think the interesting thing here is the variance even between the same ammo but different batches. if you find something that bugholes in your rifle at 100 yards - buy all of it.

 

My best group size was 15.06mm Edge to edge. (15.06 - bullet width (5.7mm) = 9.36mm Centre to Centre).

 

Having the best ammo available for my rifle is only half the battle though. My average has come up slightly since batch testing and I have hit my first possible, but it hasn't been a miracle cure. Still a lot to do to the nut behind the bolt.

 

Full Report: http://blog.stegough.com/batch-testing-lapua-22lr-ammunition-at-lord-roberts-centre-bisley/

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Additional side note:

 

When it comes to group size and how many shot for that group size:

 

Something to think about:

 

My best group there was 15.06mm. Had it been a 3 shot group from most of those batches, any of them could have easily broken 10mm. But I wouldn't have known the true extent of the accuracy of the ammunition.

 

20488013538_52c7b1e758_b.jpg

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post-15179-0-17119500-1471854529_thumb.jpeg

 

I don't like to hijack but I have a question.

 

Why is it that the Winchesters seem to be going through the target vertically? I have some other targets that they have done the same on, but only Winchesters. This rifle hates Winchesters but the last one seemed to like them more than any other

 

Thanks

 

Towsey

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They appear to be going through as normal to me Towsey. The leading of the paper where the bullet is going through is round - what appears to be happening is the paper is tearing.

 

Would suggest trying the same test on some thicker paper/card, or cardboard and seeing if you observe the same tearing on target.

 

Cause - the profile of the bullet/hollow point could be slightly different to the other bullets causing this only with the winchesters.

 

To be honest though, I'd stick with bullets "c" and use the winchesters up in your old rifle if you still have it and it likes them.

 

As you can see from my post previous to yours, even different batches of the same ammo can perform differently and it can be worthwhile trying to find a batch of ammunition that works in your rifle. Unlike Centre-Fire rounds, you can't easily tune rimfire ammunition to suit, you need to find one that suits the rifle and stick with it.

 

Hope This Helps.

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With a centrefire you have an infinite choice of component combinations to tune the load to you rifle for the best performance. With a rimfire that choice is not available. You may practically have the choice of 10 different cartridges. If you are looking for HP's for field use you may only have the choice of 3-4.

 

Even when you have tried all the types available and found the best of the bunch, as seen with TG very precise testing, the next batch of the same type you buy may not perform as well as the previous batch.

 

The .22lr is an archaic design - The captain of the Cutty Sark and Abraham Lincoln would be quite familiar with it, it's hardly changed in the 60 years.

 

Over the years I've seen centrefire accuracy improve considerably, a 1 moa rifle was something you talked about in the clubhouse, now we are all looking for sub 1moa in a fairly ordinary factory rifle. Over the same period I don't think the .22lr has improved at all.

 

I see that .22 benchrest shooters in the USA consider Eley Tenex, manufactured in the 1990's is the best ever made.

 

So - The Winchesters (or that batch) don't work too well in your rifle, but if you're just interested in bagging a few bunnies they will do the job fine - probably 98% of .22lr field shooters don't really know or care exactly how accurate their rifle/ammunition is. Sighting in is often a couple of blatts at a bake-bean can at some indeterminate distance of maybe 40-50 yards and away you go.

 

It's only a few odd bods like us that like to worry about these things.

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Here's my contribution to the debate, shot yesterday:

 

Target%20.22%20accuracy%20check%20Eley%2

 

The black squares are 0.95" on a side.

 

Sako Finnfire (out of the box), SAK mod, Leupold Vari-X III 4.5 - 14 X 50mm (parallaxed at 100 yards, non-adjustable) and set to 14X, Harris bipod, rear bag, concrete bench at 50 meters. No warming shots, no cooling intervals. Shots fired over about 30 minutes total.

 

The top horizontal row of 3 are our club's "issue" green box Eley Sport; the lower three targets are Eley Subsonic HPs.

 

I regard my self as a competent but unspectacular rifleman.

 

I had great hopes for the subs, which have previously produced better results through my Finnfire, but the paper doesn't lie and I have to play the cards I'm dealt. If only there weren't that damn flier off to the left on subs target 2. Without that I'd trim .35" off that group.

 

Bottom line:

 

Eley subs: 0.98 MOA

 

Eley Sport: 1.08 MOA

 

(For a handy conversion calculator for MOA whether you're using Imperial, Napoleonic or a combination, use this site: http://www.indecorous.com/bullseye/moacalc.html )

 

maximus otter

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Here's my contribution to the debate, shot yesterday:

 

Target%20.22%20accuracy%20check%20Eley%2

 

 

 

If only there weren't that damn flier off to the left on subs target 2. Without that I'd trim .35" off that group.

 

 

 

If only :)! On most other forums I visit the flyers seem to be discounted. "I pulled that one" "cold bore shot" "sounded odd" etc.

 

As you say - the paper never lies and a good contribution to the pot of knowledge.

 

We all know that the .22 has the ballistics of a turnip and, at extended ranges, just being a couple of yards out means a clear miss. With these real life targets, it's becoming increasing clear, that claims of consistent head shots, off the back of the Landy at 130 yards plus, with HP ammunition need to be taken with a pinch of salt. I guess there's as many gut shot as head shot rabbits once you get much past 100 yards.

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been to range to try my new gun savage mk II fv sr, 16,5" barrel.

 

depending on ammo was able to find setup that shoots around 0,5MOA @ 50 meters. But tried to get 1MOA @ 100meters - with no luck. At this distance normal groups were around 50mm.

 

I gues it is quite ok to train in the region of 50m. 100m allready to far..

 

after next trip to range I will post some results.

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1977timelimit.pdfAfternoon Gents

 

Not as per BD's request, but shows what can be done , shot by my late father in 1977, with an Anschutz 54 match, iron sights, jacket and sling in 90 seconds.

At 25 yds.

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Now that's a nice "possible", especially as it's time limit. If you were to take off the high shot on the lower left target that would be exceptionally tight. I've had a few of those at 25 yards with iron sights (No time limit) and sling but never managed it at fifty or a hundred yards under NSRA rules. (Also shot an NSRA "possible" with a pistol at 25 yards which I'm particularly pleased with.)

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