Swiss/Reloader Powders

[Big Al]

Am I right in thinking these are identical powders just branded differently?

 

If so can anyone give me the equivalents?

 

If they are made in the same factory to the same spec is this normal and do other powders cross over like this?

[charlie-hunter]

No. I think only rs60 is reloader 17.

 

A lot of folk think the very popular rs50/TR140 is Viht N140 but it is not.

 

Not sure on the rest. Looking to get some data for rs40 for lighter loads in the 22.250.

[Danpd]

Some Alliant powders are made by Bofors in Sweden, others by Nitrochemie AG in Switzerland Reloader 15 and 23 are Bofors powders, Reloader 17, 26, and 33 are Nitrochemie RL Swiss. The same as ADI powders are Hodgdon.

 

The only person i can think of that will know all about this is Laurie.

[Laurie]

The basic issue is that no US company makes extruded powders in the lower 48 states anymore. (A health & safety / cost issue.) Even IMR is no longer made in the USA, but in Canada (General Dynamics, Valleyfield, Quebec on an island in the St. Lawrence River). In fact, America only has one mainstream plant now - the old Olin Corp factory at St, Marks in Florida now also part of General Dynamics Corp. It only makes ball powders or those like Hodgdon H100V that use the same production processes.

 

So ... Hodgdon gets all its 'spherical' grades from St. Marks, some of which are the same as Winchester with a new name. eg Win 760 = Hodgdon H414.

 

As Danpd says, Hodgdon's extruded grades are all from Australia (Thales / ADI in Mulwala, New South Wales). That's one reason why there is a big shortage of ADI / Hodgdon powders as there is limited shipping capacity for explosives between Australia to New Zealand to America with restrictions on the amounts allowed into berths in Christchurch Harbour, all ships on the line routed via NZ

 

Also as Dan says, most Alliant rifle powders come from Bofors in Sweden which are also sold as Norma and as Bofors powders in Europe. eg Norma 203B = Re15 IIRC. Some come from St Marks such as the new MR ball powders. Some recent additions (Re17, Re33, and a 50 BMG powder) come from Nitrochemie Wimmins AG which makes Reload Swiss. The only one which affects UK handloaders to any great extent is the Re17 / RS60 duplication.

 

Then PB Clermont in Belgium, part of the Eurenco group, sells ball powders to Western Powders in Montana which repackages them for the retail canister handloading market as Ramshot and Accurate brands, although Western likely gets some from St. Marks too, and also gets extruded grades from GD's Vallefield, Quebec plant in Canada (the IMR outfit). Some likely duplicate existing IMR grades.

 

............. and so on and so forth. Thanks to health and safety, and also the post cold war peace dividend there are fewer and fewer western manufacturers of powders and propellants. Viht is only just holding on and nearly closed a couple of years back being saved by Lapua / Nammo by the skin of its teeth at one minute to midnight.

 

The EU is about to ban most IMR (not the new Enduron grades) and Hodgdon extruded grades because they have various modifiers starting with 'Di' in the their mix that are allegedly 'unsafe' to human health.

 

So, the stuff come from almost everywhere but also fewer and fewer places, China and Russia aside who're not (so far) in the international market. That may of course be that the Russians and Chinese see these as strategic factories and products unlike the short-termists in Europe and Washington. If we carry on as we are going, we'll lose any future large conventional war with these countries if it lasts longer than six or so weeks as we won't be able to replace ammunition and weapons as they're used up.

[Swarovski1]

Wow that what you call knowledge.

[Dorset Winmag]

 

The EU is about to ban most IMR (not the new Enduron grades) and Hodgdon extruded grades because they have various modifiers starting with 'Di' in the their mix that are allegedly 'unsafe' to human health.

 

 

Thank Goodness for Brexit and negotiating a direct trade agreement with the Aussies then!

 

I was also under the impression that RL19 & 22 were Bofors powders as well?

[Laurie]

I was also under the impression that RL19 & 22 were Bofors powders as well?

 

They are ... as previously said, most Alliant rifle powders are made by Bofors. When I started handloading a long time ago, we could get Norma powders (from the same source), but they were very expensive. Then Edgar Brothers started importing the Alliant Reloder grades (more accurately 'Hercules' powders as that was the contemporary product range name) which were considerably cheaper. Somebody soon noticed that there was a direct correlation between the four key Hercules (Alliant) and Norma grades with near identical loads data. Re19 equated to Norma 204 and Re22 to the old Norma MRP as an example.

 

Since then, both ranges have grown, so I wouldn't be 100% sure of current equivalences. It does mean though that if you have the Norma handloading manual or you read of a sh*t-hot Norma powder load on some non-UK forum or other, there is a good possibility you can try it despite their absence here if you do some simple research on the two ranges and are able to find a renamed equivalent.

[DW58]

They are ... as previously said, most Alliant rifle powders are made by Bofors. When I started handloading a long time ago, we could get Norma powders (from the same source), but they were very expensive. Then Edgar Brothers started importing the Alliant Reloder grades (more accurately 'Hercules' powders as that was the contemporary product range name) which were considerably cheaper. Somebody soon noticed that there was a direct correlation between the four key Hercules (Alliant) and Norma grades with near identical loads data. Re19 equated to Norma 204 and Re22 to the old Norma MRP as an example.

 

Since then, both ranges have grown, so I wouldn't be 100% sure of current equivalences. It does mean though that if you have the Norma handloading manual or you read of a sh*t-hot Norma powder load on some non-UK forum or other, there is a good possibility you can try it despite their absence here if you do some simple research on the two ranges and are able to find a renamed equivalent.

That takes me back many moons to when my go-to powder was Norma 201 until Parker Hale cut up rough on importing it. Luckily Hercules Reloader 12 became available and saved my sanity.

[Laurie]

I was a fan of Re12 too - best powder I could find for 308 at that time and 155/168s so far as group size went. IIRC one of the full-time US military rifle teams loaded their 7.62/308 with it under the 168gn SMK for XTC back then, this being the era of the M14 of course and pre the 'Mouse Gun'. In fact, I believe that Bofors / Hercules was responding to a request by the US military for a specialised powder for 7.62 match and sniper loadings with Re12.

 

It had one fatal flaw though - it didn't produce super-high MVs in anything, so few handloading manuals included it in their loading data tables. For whatever reason, it never caught on as much as it deserved. Eventually Bofors had a plant fire and explosion that saw some grades including this one temporarily withdrawn. When full production was restored, Re12 wasn't reinstated - a pity.

[DW58]

I was out of shooting for a fair period and noted with disappointment the lack of Re12 when I returned. Used N140 for a short while until I discovered RS50/TR140 love it, does exactly what I ask of it.

[gbal]

Rob/Laurie......memories....back around 1970 I had finally quadrupled my post grad income,and could afford a bit of reloading (and the rifles to go with it) as well as the priority carpet,and B/W TV....happy days...

Nobel 2 was just terrific in my 222(and soon 17rem) and Norma MRP for heavies (100g) in 243.

 

Then both became unobtainium....and Vihtavuori saved the day,splendidly (I had used V primers)...and still does,though I'm fairly sure the Reload Swiss powders will be excellent too....and I might just give in and try Varget...

 

I found an old 1lb empty Nobel can while tidying up,a few weeks ago-it was from very early 1970s,and was £10.....Norma was a little more,as I recall.

Remember I had just upgraded to a lecturship (£2000pa) from £500 pa,so go figure if we now pay more or less in real terms....less ,I think-at £68 a kilo today (£31 per lb) that's nominally 3x more,but I don't think many lecturers start at only £6000 p/a ...nonetheless,money well spent and 'wasted' in the simple days before bullet BC complicated things ( I wasn't shooting targets-inedible! ....:-)

 

g

[DW58]

GBal - I too have nostalgic Nobel No.2 and Norma 201 tins, and I think even Re12 - it really is demoralising to find price tickets from 30-something years ago.

[ROLY6555]

So what is Alliants 're 26's ,nitrochemies equivalant powder? Has any one used it for the 6.5 swede?

[terryh]

I believe with some digging RS80 = Re33

[Laurie]

1 hour ago, ROLY6555 said:

So what is Alliants 're 26's ,nitrochemies equivalant powder? Has any one used it for the 6.5 swede?

I don't think there is a direct RS canister equivalent. It apparently falls between Alliant Re22 and Re33 (RS80). That puts it in the same bracket as Re25, H1000, and IMR-7828 as an overbore capacity large magnum powder.

Like RS70 and 80, it is a high-energy type incorporating Nitrochemie's advanced 'EI' deterrent infusion process which means it'll likely be a sector leader in potential MVs in optimal applications, but at the expense of accelerated barrel wear if loaded up to maximum pressures. (For the sort of cartridges it's suitable for, very high-performance sporting jobs for long-range game shooting, barrel life is a secondary consideration.) 

In the 28 Nosler super-overbore job, Nosler quotes an Re26 load of 79.0gn as maximum for the 160gn Partition and Accubond bullets. Playing around in QuicklOAD, this charge is seriously over-pressure in RS70, so it's definitely not that, nor is it RS80 which would run seriously under-pressure with this charge weight.

For comparison, Nosler quotes slightly higher charges for Re25 and H1000, 80 and 81gn, so Re26 appears to be slightly faster burning than this pair, but produces almost as high velocity and with a lower fill-ratio.

It'll be somewhat too slow burning for the 6.5X55. RS70 and Re22 are pretty well optimal for this cartridge with 140s and H1000 is too slow burning. 

[VarmLR]

Is there any specific reason that you know of Laurie that the Eurenco group doesn't supply or market their ball powders in Europe?  Ramshot powders seem to be very popular in the UK but availability is less than widespread unless one is willing to pay the unavoidable minimum 20Kg transport costs from Kranks, great people though they are to deal with  (ie in this neck of the woods, that's about £40 irrespective of whether 1lb is required or 40lbs).