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raptor calls

My DIY annealing machine!

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OK guys,I was an educator by profession,and it's not easy to just give it all up-especially when there seems a need for information.I don't think the Accurate Shooter article is just 'theory'-it gives a fair summary of practical annealing.

AMP seems to me the best,but very pricey ,option for optimal annealing.

Lubo's machine has been very well received,and is a more realistic method for most shooters.

 

I don't anneal-but I tend to have a lot of brass in a lot of calibres,so no one case gets very many reloadings. I am thinking about annealing-and considering my uses,would go for Lubo's machine,as a cost effective option for prolonging case life-and in the general spirit of doing what one can,at a hobby level. In theory and practice ,one size seldom fits all,but bespoke is always pricey.

I have found no evidence that annealing promotes accuracy,but it does seem to prolong case life,and at a consistent level.This seems more supported by those who load a bit hot-but it may be general. For most of my current uses,there simply is no gains in pushing velocity,and compromising case life,and perhaps precision .Others may have a different mindset.

 

But putting brass into a hot oven is not going to achieve anything positive,and the references given provide the reasons. And Swaro did ask.

Better by far,to buy one of Lubo's machines,IMO-to get back on topic-having been deflected by a picture of the Thinker,caught a moment of despair.....but ,alas,offering no explanations.

Humour and information can surely co-exist ? :-)

 

 

 

gbal

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OK guys,I was an educator by profession

Ha-ha ... ... ... there's a surprise (not)!

 

For me the purchase of Lubo's machine equates to approximately 2 boxes of Lapua Palma brass ... ... ... I rest my case.

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Oh dear Mr Swarovski1 ... ... ...

hi Rob.I am still waiting for your in depth explanation with your superior knowledge and experience in brass annealing.this better be good ???

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Read this thread properly plus the other one on a similar topic and even you may learn something - I certainly did. A few months ago I knew absolutely nothing about annealing, rather than asking someone else to explain it to you, read and learn the same way I did.

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Rob, you seem to be advocating education-the references I gave(to Accurate Shooter,and AMP ) are about as good as it gets on annealing,though there is more basic (less informative) stuff around too-as there always is.

Which is why I suggested Neil read them.....students usually like to have an actual nod toward a good source,rather than just being told to read.....there are good and less good things to read,and some plain misinformed.How to know ,as a novice?

But it is pleasing to see another Scot who appreciates education-the country has one of the best systems around. I am of course biased,but on balance,getting a helpful steer as to what to read for oneself seems advantageous.

Whether it is indeed true that unless you can explain it to someone else,you don't understand it yourself is rather a more contentious claim,not one I'd make-but if you can explain,then you probably do understand (assuming you get it right,of course-and what you say is supported by authoritative sources)(Accurate Shooter tends to be pretty well informed,and the easiest of such sources to access).

 

Incidentally,though annealing done reasonably well (as Lubo) should improve case life (more reloads) the other thread was about 'accuracy' (really 'precision') benefits,but almost all the posts gave no evidence of 'accuracy/precision',but plenty on the other ( Scottish ) emphasis on cost effectiveness/economy.

Which matters too,irrespective of nationality (200 new lapua should give around 1000 reloads,before some case for annealing might be made;then savings should begin to occur...less (minor) operating costs...AMP cost would buy about six times as many cases,so isn't an obvious no brainer for many shooters....who understandably baulk at the capital investment too...but it probably is 'better' ....I don't have degrees in metalurgy and economics.

 

gbal

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AMP really is a good machine, but all these programs are a bit of a marketing trick.

 

See, they have different programs for different makes, but even the same companies make cases with brass of different proportions of zinc and copper. They also vary in neck thickness.

 

The AMP relies on these proportions and neck thickness standards to calculate the exact time, but as I mentioned the variables are to many from batch to batch and that is why these programs are just useless!

 

Please, read this article that proves what I say: http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2011/09/cartridge-brass-alloys-revealed-by-x-ray-spectrometers/

 

revealed that the alloy in the new ‘blue box’ 6mmBR Lapua brass is different than the alloy in Lapua’s older ‘brown box’ 6mmBR brass. Specifically, the ‘blue box’ 6mmBR brass has more copper and less tin (by mass). Here’s a summary of the X-Ray Fluorescence spectrometry tests:

 

 

Do you believe the AMP has a program that says Lapua cases from the newer blue box and Lapua cases from the older brown box?

 

 

Regards,

 

Lubo

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Yeah exactly what I thought.all the gear and no ideal .

Only joking Rob.

Annealing is something that I've not got around too yet and not sure I will.its just another process.i must admit the machine that raptor calls has made does look very good and if u were to get an anealer it would be that one.for time being I would rather spend the money on bullets.powder and primers

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And don't forget new brass when yours gets old and brittle, and either stops holding nice groups, or just splits....

 

;)

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On another note, going beyond sarcasm and facepalming.....

 

Have you got any brass for a rifle you actively shoot thats at 5 or 6 firings Swaro?

 

If so, split the batch in half, and send me half of it with a fiver in the box for return postage.. I'll anneal it, and you can load it all as usual and see the difference for yourself. Groups and over the chrono if you can.

 

And lubo can give me commission for your machine when you order one ;)

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There was an interesting paper published recently on the effects of accuracy on annealed cases, or rather, the adverse effects due to case hardening. The conclusion was that annealing does improve accuracy and there was a lengthy explanation as to why.

 

From a personal point of view, based on annealing by hand, I hadn't noticed any spectacular improvement. However, since a mate of mine acquired an AMP machine and has annealed some cases for me, I have noticed a definite reduction in vertical dispersion.

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Hi grum.

I've not any brass that's done that many firings.ive recently changed both calibres and my 6.5x47 is working it's way through 290 once fired lapua cases and my 284 has only fired 48 shots.i will certainly take you up on your generous offer when I get there.i tell you .what grum. I don't believe anything they say about you .regards Swaro

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Back to the original of this thread!

 

Having played with a few of the turn table/blow lamp annealers (one of which is still in my cellar) The looks and simplicity of Lubo's machine ticks all the boxes.

 

Annealing does make a difference, I hand seat a lot of my bullets now and you can 'feel'/see a difference as you carry out this operation.

 

I did not want a blow lamp set up so went for the AMP but the cost of Lubo's machine 'might' have swayed me back to open flames if it had been available at the time :) , but my spec. was simple to to use, no open flames so this drove me to the AMP.

 

Not too sure on this 'can the AMP deal with different case neck thicknesses?' though - can any annealer do this on the fly?

 

But hats off to Lubo in bringing this neat product to shooters.

 

T

 

ps Swaro - if you cook the whole case the brass is scrap.

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Hi grum.

I've not any brass that's done that many firings.ive recently changed both calibres and my 6.5x47 is working it's way through 290 once fired lapua cases and my 284 has only fired 48 shots.i will certainly take you up on your generous offer when I get there.i tell you .what grum. I don't believe anything they say about you .regards Swaro

 

Hah, well, I may well be a cnut, however I believe if someone is willing to learn, then knowledge should be shared. You're obviously dubious about the benefits of annealing, however you show some curiosity, so I'm willing to go out on a limb and let you dip your toe without forking out a couple of hundred quid.

 

For me, I've noticed a variety of things with annealing.

 

Sizing brass becomes easier, with a better 'feel' - particularly through a collet die, not that I use one often, but for the calibre I do, it's night and day.

Seating bullets - you'll really feel the difference between well worked brass(I think 5-6 firings is a good number to show a big difference), and annealed brass.

Over the chrono - my ES reduced notably with the introduction of annealing to my brass prep regime. I also added wet tumbling to my regime at the same time, however, I'm not convinced clean brass alone would see the cuts in ES I saw.

Less variation in elevations as noted above.

 

How does it make a difference? My understanding of it is that it's all about consistent neck tension from case to case. Consistent neck tension should equate to lower ES(assuming a good regime with good components otherwise obviously), which at range will reduce variations.

 

You do a fair bit of long range play, so I'd expect you to be able to see a difference. Perhaps it's placebo - this element comes up time and time again with various things, maybe it helps from a mental point of view? If you think it'll do better, it may well do just because you're being positive about it all. I know from my experience with it all so far, that over the chrono my ES better than halved however, so I'd put my money on it making an actual quantifiable difference.

 

Shoot your brass, get it to 5 or 6 firings, send me some sized and decapped, I'll do my bit and send it back. Load it side by side, same day, same time - you'll feel the difference. Shoot it side by side, same day, same conditions - if you can run it over a chrono, that'd be even better. Decap and size it side by side, and feel the difference.

 

Go into it with an open mind - don't go in expecting either to do better. Experiments are best done 'blind' so your mind can't sub consciously sway the results either way, difficult in this situation. Don't go into it expecting the annealed stuff to be sh*te, and don't go into it expecting the annealed stuff to be the best ammo you've ever shot. Shoot enough of both side by side, groups at a distance where you can see the variation creep in, aswell as over the chrono, and I believe you'll see a difference.

 

Whether that difference has enough of a 'value' to justify a machine and another stage to your brass prep is another thing - but there are a shed load of folk doing it, and I'm a big believer there's no smoke without fire........

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The best money I've spent this side of Xmas is 2 rebarrels.2 die sets.brass bullets powder primers a scope.jeez andy you must think I am made of money.my credit card has been abused too keep up with retail theorapy shopaholicitis.i think I am done this side of Xmas.

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I'm not a betting man, but I predict that Mr Swarovski1 will end up with an annealificator of some flavour or other before long - let's face facts, brass needs annealificating and the Joneses must be kept up with, and annealificators is the way of keeping up this season ... ... ...

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....have you ordered one yet? ;)

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Oh I forgot I've not ordered mine yet as there is a kind gentleman on here thats offered to do mine .

 

 

*limited offer of 50 for comparison purposes ;)

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