Brexit? A quick poll

[nearly there]

We're not allowed to say immigration isn't working because if we do were branded racist

[brown dog]

Hmmm, can we learn from history?

 

Recognise any of this? (I've précised it a little!)

 

3rd century AD:

 

• Roman Empire overspent.
• Roman Army run-down.

 

• Goth immigration to Roman Empire encouraged by 'humanistic' and 'liberal' elements of the government - as an important element of the economy and the 'right thing to do'.
• Resultant massive 'in-place' Goth immigrant population within the Empire.

 

• Nihilistic Huns go on murderous, quasi genocidal, rampages E of Danube.
• Tens of thousands of additional Goths (refugees from the Hun horrors) gather on the Danube, fleeing the Hun atrocities and seeking entry to the Roman Empire.

 

• For 'humanistic' and 'liberal' reasons, Rome lets the mass of Goth refugees in, with no plans as to how to handle the vast numbers.
• Goth refugees treated far worse than their expectations.

 

• Goth refugees (remember, Tens of thousands) kick off, and go on rampage.
• In-place Goth immigrants kick off in sympathy with their kin-folk.

 

• Romans lose battles to contain the Goths.

 

• End of Roman Empire.

[bradders]

Bipods are big in Europe, says it all....move there

We are an island of real men, Europe is a little short of Ladyboys....move there

I can give you a lift to Dover..........

[bowji john]

Interesting summary of an arguably similar event in history from Brown dog

 

I'm an immigrant - I come from Zimbabwe

 

UK has been very good to me and I've done OK

 

I came with nothing - my family farm taken by Mugabe - but I fitted in (with some difficulty) - to the British culture

 

The only thing I knew was farming related and as a game ranger - I had to reinvent myself

 

One lesson my family learned then (that might or might not be relevant here today) - you own nothing that you can't hold on to

 

If we don't hold onto our culture, customs and self determination - others will take it from us without hesitation

[OSOK]

The sooner we get out of this farse the better , The sceptic in me thinks that the only reason that the SNP say they want to stay in is they feel the vote will go for leaving and it would give them a reason for having another independance vote ?

With all the amount we import and so little we export how many of the European countries within the EU are going to now refuse to sell us their goods.................. ?

The major countries only want us to stay in is so their Financial and Imigration burdens are reduced and as for the poorer EU members well .................' It's easy to be generous when you've nothing to give '

Just my thoughts

 

OSOK

[Simon J]

We really should not contaminate a good shooting forum with what is obviously a toxic subject. I need somewhere to hide from all the crap that both sides will be spouting for the next 4 months!

 

For the record I'm with gbal on this, but I absolutely respect the idea of exit from everyone who honestly can't bear to pool sovereignty. other reasons for leaving I won't credit.

 

Please bear in mind that we obviously care so much about our own democracy and sovereignty that we have never got round to having our own written constitution, which is frankly unforgivable . I know there's the good old Bill of Rights from 1688 but 300 years of ignoring the subject since does us no credit at all. But let's not go there .... please

 

Simon

[brown dog]

We really should not contaminate a good shooting forum with what is obviously a toxic subject. I need somewhere to hide from all the crap that both sides will be spouting for the next 4 months!

 

For the record I'm with gbal on this, but I absolutely respect the idea of exit from everyone who honestly can't bear to pool sovereignty. other reasons for leaving I won't credit.

 

Please bear in mind that we obviously care so much about our own democracy and sovereignty that we have never got round to having our own written constitution, which is frankly unforgivable . I know there's the good old Bill of Rights from 1688 but 300 years of ignoring the subject since does us no credit at all. But let's not go there .... please

 

Simon

 

Just ignore this thread then

[TSG]

My parents are voting out because they feel they were had over 40 years ago. I don't feel had over, and I am not that bothered by immigration although a bit less of it might push a few oxygen thieves from the UK to go out and do some work! I think it will be a bit of an adventure as it used to be, cutting around Europe on a visitors passport.

[MJR]

Who said free european trade is actually 'free' because it isn't.

I'm not convinced by the 'they need us more than we need them' argument but I know one thing. Produce a quality, competitively priced product and everyone will want it whether or not we are in Europe.

Again, I'm not convinced either by the sovereignty argument- show me a case in history when royalty have acted overwhelmingly for the greater good of the people they supposedly reign over?

I'm British, I like my identity, I feel that is being eroded and along with the fact we are supporting the whole circus financially I think we'd be better out.

[bradders]

 

Just ignore this thread then

 

This

Currently I am undecided as don't know what the best option is, but currently Out coz Britain=Island is winning but is that really the best option?

As a RFD who builds AR type rifles, I buy lowers and bolt groups from Europe. The licensing may effect me, but the end product and cost will affect you

I don't know the best way to go

[brown dog]

Again, I'm not convinced either by the sovereignty argument- show me a case in history when royalty have acted overwhelmingly for the greater good of the people they supposedly reign over?

 

 

Mike, sovereignty in this context is nothing to do with 'royalty'. Sovereignty - or National Sovereignty - is the concept of (any country) being able to govern itself without external interference.

[markyw2]

I am in two minds about the whole thing. On the one hand, we went "into" Europe as a free trade agreement (the good) and ended up with remote control bureaucracy, no borer control and weakened domestic sovereignty (the bad).

 

Either way, I think there will be waves,ripples, upset, but it will all smooth itself out in the end. There will, no doubt, be jealousy and vindictiveness if we leave.

 

The article linked to above makes good reading and some sense. So much information on both sides.......

 

Mark

[Orka Akinse]

If nothing else ..............................

 

Voting OUT will give us choices.

 

Voting in will cement our fate..........

[gbal]

Mike, sovereignty in this context is nothing to do with 'royalty'. Sovereignty - or National Sovereignty - is the concept of (any country) being able to govern itself without external interference.

Mike,I am no royalist,but the king and queen of Britain did a fair job during WW2,if you need an example.

 

But as Matt explains,it isn't the issue.

 

IF sovereignty is such a deal breaker,then why have 27 member countries in the EU not made the fuss that some of the UK is making about it?

 

And we're talking about some pretty major European players,with a history etc to match the UK,well almost. :-)

 

Are 'we' to just accept they are all misguided,and only England has access to ' the true Jerusalem' (England,because the other UK countries have relinquished some sovereignty to join in the UK-and by and large accept that 'Team UK" works; as does 'Team EU" with UK in it). The United States know a fair bit about these issues ( " we must 'hang together',or most assuredly we will hang separately" ) and they want the UK in the EU.

 

I don't expect a coherent answer to this question; probably more 'everyone else is out of step' -what a very British conceit,but only a vote will reveal if it is a majority.

 

Let us at least hope the decision is based on rational understanding,rather than national misundestanding.

 

GB

[sako 243]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8036097.stm#start.Out for me

[geek]

Its a Leave from me, but I think The Wicked Witch of the North will encourage her clans to follow Cameron for once, their votes could be a problem.

 

Its not just about being better off either , its about getting back to being British.

 

 

I do concur!

[maximus otter]

I vote Out.

 

No-one has yet given me one specific, measurable, otherwise-unachievable reason why staying in the EUSSR is good for us. The only aspect of EU membership I recall thinking might be good was passport-free travel to other EU countries, and we don't even have that now.

 

I used to live on Skye, and I remember seeing bridges with huge plaques on them saying, "Built with money from the EU!". I felt like replacing them with plaques that said, "For every £1 the EU "gives" us in front of the cameras and with huge publicity, they take back £2 under cover of night."

 

The trouble is that the pro-EU mouthpieces have all the money and media access.

 

Regretfully, I anticipate a narrow "Stay in" vote.

 

maximus otter

[LukeSoutherner]

I vote Out.

 

No-one has yet given me one specific, measurable, otherwise-unachievable reason why staying in the EUSSR is good for us. The only aspect of EU membership I recall thinking might be good was passport-free travel to other EU countries, and we don't even have that now.

 

I used to live on Skye, and I remember seeing bridges with huge plaques on them saying, "Built with money from the EU!". I felt like replacing them with plaques that said, "For every £1 the EU "gives" us in front of the cameras and with huge publicity, they take back £2 under cover of night."

 

The trouble is that the pro-EU mouthpieces have all the money and media access.

 

Regretfully, I anticipate a narrow "Stay in" vote.

 

maximus otter

 

 

I agree with the above. We're paying in more in taxes than we're getting back, and then the EU has the cheek to say that it funded roads (e.g. The Isle of Harris), charities, buildings, etc, across our country. Ridiculous. What it should say is: "Funded by you, the taxpayer, via Brussels".

 

I also think it's amusing that when people talk about what they like about being in the EU, they talk about the ease of travel, or the ease of only needing one currency when they go on holiday - Wow, the EU really has improved our quality of life !

[MJR]

Gbal, I'd agree, let's have this decision taken based off good reliable information.

Trouble is trying to drill down to find that data is nigh on impossible, so much smoke and mirrors its difficult to ascertain the true cost of EU membership. My understanding at present is that the EU is costing us dearly, issues of sovereignty aside(and I think BD and I are on the same page here, just approach from slightly differing angles) the reason other member states readily agreed to it are they are in benefit not deficit as a result of membership.

Immigration for instance is at the forefront of everyone's opinion, myself included. I do not agree with welfare payment been sent back to support family members still in the country of origin, especially when those payments amount to many more times the average weekly wage in that country. BUT, understand this. The whole budgetary cost of that system is peanuts, almost insignificant (and we are talking large sums of money) when compared to EU membership as a whole.

 

What I would like to see is an accurate, fact based synopsis of what the cost of EU membership would 'buy' the UK if we spent that money internally on our own infrastructure and modernisation. And before anyone tries to tell me the UK is a thoroughly modern country just pause and have a look around the globe. South Korea for example has near country wide super fast wifi broadband. That's is a real benefit to individuals and businesses. Does the UK? No. Cuba, yes Cuba has a very good health service. The UK? Well yes I think it does but it's about to implode.....

[Breacher]

Out !!

[gbal]

Max and Luke: some of your points deserve a fuller reply-the whole issue of net contribution is important,and thoroughly confused...another post,though.

I see the E USSR as a debate scorer with the biased, but it's nonsense-surely we can do better-as the great debater said,it is being (uber) economical with the truth. :-)

 

It's good that the Highlands and Islands have got some benefits in infrastructure....we can judge about 'double taken back by night ' on it's merits-the accounts are fairly transparent-there is no 'by night' about it.

Sako's post 40 is very clear (and thanks for that-there is still room either way for comment-as some benefits-jobs eg-are not directly calculable....) and is a basis of discussion,at least-would we had more such actual data (net immigration data for example).

 

"Funded by you,the taxpayer,via Brussels"-well,I'd be grateful these unaccountable administrators had done some good,and be wondering why our UK government had not done this. Just another take on it!

 

We should not just consider what people say pretty off hand/casually about the EU-or any other system- like 'same currency on holiday' and the like-these are of course very minor,but the real issues need a bit of thinking about-like 'able to afford such Euro holidays" (and want to go there-the USSR didn't do too well on that,compared to the EU countries). It's not all black/white,or rose coloured :-)

 

gbal

[gbal]

 

 

Well let's take politics etc out of it complexly and look at a basic 'fact' (sorry about this?)
If you look a mainland Europe, you have countries who's borders have been pretty much 'as is' for 100's if not 1000's of years, divided say by a river. The folks on one side of the river speak their own language and want to be associated with their own country, the folks on the other side of the river a different language and country - it is not human nature to all be the same, you want to belong to your club/tribe/county/country.
The very concept that 'one-size-fits-all' related to society is so bloody rediculous, I feel why the hell are we even discussing it?
The assumption that a peasant in the Carpathian foot hills can produce crops/operate as the same as a Northern European farmer is beyond belief - and probably why the about 40% total revenue of the EU goes on CAP. (It is actually a lot more than this but the 'CAP' bit has been dressed up as 'green' or 'rural devlopment')
It is a joke, the USSR showed that enforcing unnatural concepts onto people's does not work (or Rome for that matter?)
Brgds Terry

Terry,I'm not sure you have removed politics,but your "facts" do deserve their quotation marks.

Many of the current European countries are of fairly recent origin- Germany was the end result of many small independent states amalgamating withi the last 200 years,and was of course split and reunited very recently. Italy likewise is quite recent,some of the Slovak countries, and so on.
There is a fair point about 'people' liking an identity-initially family/local/national-but the 'in group'/'out group' typically merge at some mutually tolerable level-"citizenship"-as societies develop appropriately,but can retain some differences in identity,too.
I have lived,worked,owned property on both sides of a boundary river- at least one that has so served-the Tweed-as the boundary between two once independent 'sovereign' countries,which have united fairly well,yet retain some regional and national identity,within the more encompassing
USA is an example of a Federal system,with state components,multicultural (not problem free) but retaining a "US'"identity-as well as "texan",'new yorker' etc
Switzerland is a clear European example of a Federal system binding French,German and Italian cantons successfully-within this overarching Swiss identity,even the languages have been preserved,and each canton retains some related 'flavours'.

The USSR failed,in part by imposing extreme stalinist concepts,riding very roughshod indeed over ethnic,religious etc identities. I don't see anything remotely like that in the EU.
Most accept the CAP has been reformed,and needs more such.No-one is mandating exactly what any farmer does.No doubt,there are imperfections in other countries too (I'm reminded of JFK's brilliant analysis of American farming-'a farmer is someone who buys retail,sells wholesale,and pays the freight both ways"-that kind of rhetoric does help get the agricultural vote (true or not).
Farmers in UK,both sides of the Tweed,were grumbling about policies long before the EU.

The UK has blended not too badly several 'national' even international cultures reasonably well,and does moderately well on immigration,to mutual advantage generally,though that isn't an overnight thing. The UK has been seriously 'invaded' at least twice,probably long term beneficially.... that deserves more consideration,at more length,and is hardly unique in Europe. Whether that has any bearing on our general sense of fairness and tolerance and low xenophonic prejudice ,at our best ,is discussable. So:

What is this "Britishness" of which ye speak ?

GB

[Re-Pete]

Despite my intense dislike and distrust of the "old money" ex-public school incompetents and their cronies currently in gov. here, I'll be voting to stay in.

Hypocrisy and corruption are endemic in all governments, so we're between a rock and a hard place whichever way we vote.

Additionally, if we leave, it'll most likely be more expensive to import European reloading consumables...............

 

On "Britishness", I'd like to point out that nationality is, after all, an accident of birth..................

 

Pete

[gbal]

Pete, well to some extent....I was assuming environment/culture played a considerable role,but they are too,outwith babies and childrens',even adults,free choice.

 

Really,'without prejudice' at all,I was wondering if there were actual substantive aspects of "Britishness" that might be unique,and especially under some sort of 'threat' from EU membership.

If there were thought to besome threat,we might get some evidence since UK has been in the EU,more or less,for well over a generation,so any degeneration should be showing up around now. ( The changes I see in the young are more for the better,and older citizens aren't getting worse).

Along with 'sovereignty',this threat to "Britishness' is often raised,so what do people have in mind when they use the term 'Britishness"...( and is 'immigrant' an implicit labeling of 'deficient in these British virtues"?-even if some of UK stock here lack them too?)

 

I understand,as a developmental psychologist,nature and nurture are complex. I'm not too sure that fundamental decent and desireable human traits are that different, but some may be fostered in the UK more than elsewhere? I haven't seen that in Europe: those who have not been there so much may have clearer vision. Some are characatured...the British are not surely,just "a nation of shopkeepers" ,nor every scot 'mean and dour';( now come on guys -show that famous British sense of fair play -and be serious-it's our kids' futures we're voting on);so what are 'we',that is at risk/has alredy been eroded?

 

GB Ltd.

[MJR]

Gbal, judging by your comments you are an 'in', that's fine, but you also obviously know little to nothing about CAP and the day to day effect it has on our farmers and the restrictions it imposes.

If you are not aware what it is to be British then you are already an EU convert and further thread dilution along the lines of 'what is an immigrant ?'is not helpful and only serves to distract.