Brexit? A quick poll

[brown dog]

I've been trying to distil quite what Cameron has negotiated.

 

To my mind, anything that leaves us stuck in our current position of reduced sovereignty is a 'no'.

Again, to my mind, all we need is to remain in the European Free Trade Area - which we will, even if we leave the EU.

 

Good article here Spectator.

 

Might be interesting to see how the UKV community sees it.

[dannywayoflife]

Europe is a doomed experiment we shouldn't ever have been in out out out

[bowji john]

Europe is unreformable

 

Few member countries have had much more than the briefest of encounters with democracy

 

EU terrified to give peoples of Europe a vote on EU for fear of rejection - result is that the EU is beginning to resemble the USSR of old

 

We are being pressured into staying because it is convenient for the USA's current geopolitical strategy

 

No concern for whether it is good for us - One chance for us to get out

 

Curiously a Brexit might well reform the EU in a way that staying in would not

 

But once out - who cares

[gbal]

 

 

How do up to 27 other European countries -including major ex imperial big players-handle their "loss of sovereignty?"

 

Anyhow,I'm in.

[brown dog]

How do up to 27 other European countries -including major ex imperial big players-handle their "loss of sovereignty?"

 

Baffles me.

(But then again, I'm baffled that anyone with more than three brain cells thought a common european currency could possibly work!)

 

Looking forward to the next random edict from the European Parliament and Courts shaping our constitution? Hoover power? Light Bulb wattage? .. the rights of the violent few over the rights of the peaceful majority?

 

To explain Britain's rather uniquely uncodified constitution, "it has been suggested that the British Constitution can be summed up in eight words:

'What the Queen in Parliament enacts is law'.

This means that Parliament, using the power of the Crown, enacts law which no other body can challenge. Parliamentary sovereignty is commonly regarded as the defining principle of the British Constitution."

- well, that's a principle routinely destroyed by the European Courts and the European Parliament, ergo, continued membership of the EU reduces our sovereignty.

[gbal]

Matt, unconvincing. How about 'maturity' ( or the old imperial eye for the common good,especially one's own-UK did that rather well,rather better than France,Germant,Italy,Spain,Portugal.....so what do those guys know now...). Can't see eg France giving up much of importance-OK,except kings-and I'm a Francophile.

 

Anyhow,it's clear from the few posts already that rationality and accuracy may well be conspicuous by their absence. No gain in turning a poll into an political slanging match-it's not even fun,when it's that uninformed.

 

If the UK leaves,we may find Scotland won't and quit the UK. Plus ca change,plus ces't la meme chose?

 

Let the hoi poloi cathart. Whatever happened to our own UK North South divide,with Westminster/home counties making sure it was all "egalite"?

 

My absolute life guru once told me that if you can't decide on what's the best choice,look to see how the bastards are voting,and do the opposite. Sorry,Nigel.

 

g

[brown dog]

Matt, unconvincing.

 

Really? The unarguable fact that EU membership tramples the bedrock of our our uncodified constitution by destroying the sovereignty of the British Parliament is 'unconvincing'?

 

(and I find the standard argument of the liberal that everyone else is uneducated or ill-informed rather unconvincing (and it's a sad fact that the most of the UK narrative is controlled by such types - as they are the ones predominantly drawn to media careers)).

 

How about, for a moment, distilling the debate into a discussion on the euro (without forgetting that giving up control of your own currency is another significant loss of sovereignty - a large part of the reason UK didn't join the Euro): The single european currency; success or fail?

[gbal]

Matt,another pint,or just 1/2 litre?

 

Sorry,I didn't see your (addendum?) bit about the Queen.....still leaves the key queston: why do the other EU countries not complain on this issue?

 

Liberal control of the media? Well,art programs on the minor TV channels,but the large circulation dailies?

Is the press uniform on the referendum?

 

No balanced commentator is saying EU is perfect,nor any alternative either. Many are saying the EU will be better if UK remains,and improves it.

 

But the issue is "better in", or 'better out"...for some at a selfish level,for others a national level,others yet more globally. The issue is not "the UK is perfect ,the EU is not perfect,so we should leave."

 

Anyhow,enough already. I'm off to reload some Vihtavuori powder, and Lapua brass.That european union works in my rifles,including the BSA.

[brown dog]

Just found this, which is an interesting read BBC

[gbal]

Just found this, which is an interesting read BBC

Agreed,Matt.

 

A detailed,accurate report on what was sought and what was got.

 

The assessment /commentary is balanced and nonpartisan.

 

If only all debate was like this....

 

PS I've noticed I need to trade with the US for primers,but I don't want Scotland to be the 51st state,in a Trumped up USA . That sucks,Hilary-don't let it happen.

[SWShooter]

Its a Leave from me, but I think The Wicked Witch of the North will encourage her clans to follow Cameron for once, their votes could be a problem.

 

Its not just about being better off either , its about getting back to being British.

[gbal]

SW, Ms Sturgeon has one vote,same as you-that's democracy.

 

The leader of the Scottish National Party may be more persuasive than you,whether on merit or emotion,or whatever-that's politics.

 

Is not Britain a Union of several onetime sovereign nations -of decidedly mixed ancestry.It took a bit of negotiation etc. eg 1603 Union of Scotland and England Act,under an existing Scottish king (ok,'queen' possibly too)-what was all that about,sovereignty -wise? :-)

You may well find Ms Sturgeon as willing to withdraw from that Union,as you from the EU. Isn't politics complicated.....

 

"Politics is war without blood",which might be progress....we could well do without another Euro one-the Six Nations tournament seems better all round especially as the "British" get 3 or 4 teams....what's that all about ...democratically... :-)

 

g

[Artiglio]

Its out for me, the linked explanation of the deal explains it well but the UK needs far longer than 7 years to get back on its feet. I'm British and wish to remain so.

[SWShooter]

Its out for me, the linked explanation of the deal explains it well but the UK needs far longer than 7 years to get back on its feet. I'm British and wish to remain so.

Maybe seven or more years to see signs of improvement all round but I don't believe we would go backwards in any way.

[bowji john]

I suspect the country as a whole will vote to remain

 

It will/would be interesting to see the breakdown of votes by region

 

If the 'stay in' win by a narrow margin, and it is found that Scotland has prevented an overall exit, I suspect the resentment that Scotland feels towards England will be as nothing compared with the growth in animosity south of the boarder toward our SNP chums

[Artiglio]

I'm expecting the result will be to remain in, the EU has its tendrils throughout society and with the goverment backing the remain in campaign there will be no reassurance that EU funding will be replaced by UK funding in the event of a split. As a result many will choose to remain.

I look at the effects of uncontrolled immigration into my immediate area ( i don't blame any of those that came for a better life and few are "bad" people, we certainly have enough wrong 'uns of our own) my comment about 7 years not being enough is in respect of it being insufficient time to integrate those already here, create decent jobs, build schools/houses/hospitals/services and build an economy strong enough to maintain current standards of living and british values.

As noted above regional breakdown of votes will be interesting .

[gbal]

I suspect the country as a whole will vote to remain

 

It will/would be interesting to see the breakdown of votes by region

 

If the 'stay in' win by a narrow margin, and it is found that Scotland has prevented an overall exit, I suspect the resentment that Scotland feels towards England will be as nothing compared with the growth in animosity south of the boarder toward our SNP chums

I would not put it at all like that,but is that actually what "Britishness" means to those south of the border ("prevented"/animosity/ etc.....surely not to all....?)

 

I don't think the case for Scottish independence has been made convincingly,but that sort of language hardly sems that of a "British" country...."you can stay in the UK ,if you do what we (perhaps even minority english) want" ....of course there are many fair english views-indeed if its close enough that the scottish minority vote has influence,then a lot of 'english' will have voted to stay too......-oops,another inconvenient fact,but we see hints of some true colours perhaps in the bad losers,if that is indeed the outcome.... "I am democratic,if I win"-not what I see as one of the admirable english traits,though hardly unique either. I think I'd have more respect for getting into the trough,fairly and democratically,then distributing nearly on the same basis (with an idealistic touch of justified 'need').

Failing quite that,perhaps british good sense will suffice.

 

gb

[bowji john]

It is true that for the 'ins' to have won as a consequence of a Scottis influence, a great deal of English would also have voted in a similar vein

 

But do try to make you're (valid) points without the digs

 

We are all just voicing our opinions and of course we will not all agree

[MrCetrizine]

Unless we can get all member nations to completely tear down the current EU and rebuild it for a modern era then I want out as the current EU is a badly conceived mess.

 

All the EU needs to be is a sharing of information and skills and solidarity in defence and economic strength.

 

There is no need for a central parliament fiddling about with each member's laws and values.

[les]

Cameron has achieved precisely nothing. Any 'agreement' that he thinks might have been reached will be worthless, because by the time anything is implemented, the goalposts will have moved again. It's time to get OUT, and take control of our country again. It won't make a scrap of difference to our trading partners - they need us a lot more than we need them.

[terryh]

Well let's take politics etc out of it complexly and look at a basic 'fact' (sorry about this?)

 

If you look a mainland Europe, you have countries who's borders have been pretty much 'as is' for 100's if not 1000's of years, divided say by a river. The folks on one side of the river speak their own language and want to be associated with their own country, the folks on the other side of the river a different language and country - it is not human nature to all be the same, you want to belong to your club/tribe/county/country.

 

The very concept that 'one-size-fits-all' related to society is so bloody rediculous, I feel why the hell are we even discussing it?

 

The assumption that a peasant in the Carpathian foot hills can produce crops/operate as the same as a Northern European farmer is beyond belief - and probably why the about 40% total revenue of the EU goes on CAP. (It is actually a lot more than this but the 'CAP' bit has been dressed up as 'green' or 'rural devlopment')

 

It is a joke, the USSR showed that enforcing unnatural concepts onto people's does not work (or Rome for that matter?)

 

Brgds Terry

[Orka Akinse]

Listened (for as much as I could stomach) this morning to Cameron on the Andrew Marr show. Cameron (who I had voted for has lost) when pressed as to the content of his deal the only statement he kept repeating was, "the detail still yet needs to be agreed" which has left me greatly disappointed in him and I've lost all confidence this puppet show has achieved anything for the UK and its people. So in the words of the dragons den, I'm out.

[JDBenelliM1]

Well let's take politics etc out of it complexly and look at a basic 'fact' (sorry about this?)

 

If you look a mainland Europe, you have countries who's borders have been pretty much 'as is' for 100's if not 1000's of years, divided say by a river. The folks on one side of the river speak their own language and want to be associated with their own country, the folks on the other side of the river a different language and country - it is not human nature to all be the same, you want to belong to your club/tribe/county/country.

 

The very concept that 'one-size-fits-all' related to society is so bloody rediculous, I feel why the hell are we even discussing it?

 

The assumption that a peasant in the Carpathian foot hills can produce crops/operate as the same as a Northern European farmer is beyond belief - and probably why the about 40% total revenue of the EU goes on CAP. (It is actually a lot more than this but the 'CAP' bit has been dressed up as 'green' or 'rural devlopment')

 

It is a joke, the USSR showed that enforcing unnatural concepts onto people's does not work (or Rome for that matter?)

 

Brgds Terry

100% agree terry

[baldie]

I'm very surprised that no one so far has mentioned the very subject that will motivate the British people to give a resounding "Out " vote.

 

Immigration.

 

I have yet to speak to anyone who thinks its a good idea.

 

I remember spending 6 hours in A + E just after Christmas with Pneumonia.

 

Without exaggeration, 90% of the people in there were eastern europeans. The chap in front of me, giving his details, had just got off a plane. he had no fixed abode, no national insurance number....no nothing. And he went before me all the way through the system.

 

Give Britain back to the British please.

[happyhunter]

 

About time we were out.