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Building an ultra-long range SGC-legal 12bore fox load.


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  • 3 weeks later...
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I've been quite struck by the claims around the Cheddite 100metri 12 bore cartridge and am pondering (as they seem to be impossible to find in shops) on ways of making an equivalent legal homeload.

 

Essentially, the 100metri's supposed to deliver a slowed spread of shot to give a 40yd pattern at 100m due to 'double wadding'.

 

attachicon.giftb_54112100-METRI.jpg

Full detail here: http://www.chedditeitaly.com/en/prodotti_det.php?id_cartuccia_sel=117&id_animale=10

 

I'm thinking of trying the double-wadding (the pic looks as though a cup wad has been reversed over the pellets); and wondering if there could be other ways of slowing the shot's spread from a conventional wad - such as making it 'sticky' (but not too sticky!) with. say, sticky grease.

 

Anyone played with these ideas?

Ive got some of these to try and to be honest ill stick with my home rolled load, As when i found a wad from the above load it still had quite a few pellets still in-beaded in the wad, nearly looking like mini solid slug.

My home rolled is 50gram lead Nickle plated 1s ,

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Hi.

 

I have not seen the Cheddite 100 metri's load, plus 100 yards is a hell of a long way for a shotgun pattern to hold together, but technology moves on and at some point it will be achieved.

 

I reload my own shotshells and in large lead I load sizes BB [0.160"] A [0.180"] 4 Buck [0.240"] 0 Buck [0.320"] and 0.340" pellets which are slightly bigger and heavier than 00 Buck. Sorry a mixture of old English sizes and some modern American , don't do very much metric. My 1.25oz homeload of size A in a 2.75" case puts 6+ pellets in vitals/head of a life size fox target at 50 yards, more than enough put lights out. When I was young we used Eley Max loaded with 1.187oz BB's and they worked well at the ranges we shot. I don't use shot smaller than BB for fox always considered energy may not hold out but reading this and thinking about it, lead sizes 1 & 2's use to work at range on geese.

 

When I have time I might pattern some loads at 60 & 70 yards just to see and if this thread is still active I will post results. I have some 1.5oz and 1.625oz 3" loads to test as well, it will be interesting to see what results are like but recoil will be heavy. Interesting thread hope you don't mine me posting my tests and views.

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Im just loading up some 10bore Shells got a load for 57gms (2oz) but only No6 (UK) shot want to get some small qtys of larger shot for some longer range loads

 

the reversed wad load looks to be a modern version of a cut shell without having to squeeze the hull down and through the bore from the chamber

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It is unlike a cut shell in that the shot is not completely encapsulated and will be released in flight.

 

I was intrigued enough to load a few myself, just using target shells so #8 shot and standard plastic wad components not the steel shot wads cheddite use, to see what effect they have on the pattern. Just need to get out and pattern them somewhere now, I don't suppose a shooting ground would be best pleased about potentially thumping their pattern plate!

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  • 3 weeks later...

Weather has improved a bit so got out today to test some loads, just some home loaded 12 gauge 2.75" cases with 1.25 oz lead A [0.180"] & 1.5 oz lead BB [0.160"].

Test gun was a Mossberg 500 with 24" barrel with full choke. Target was a hand drawn Fox with a 6" circle on the head and a 8" circle on vitals, sorry drawings are not my strong point.

I pattern these Fox loads just on the two circles rather than on a traditional 30" circle and estimate Fox size holes in the pattern, just my way, I think its better.

The results shown here are repeatable and these are not the selected best for the loads but average

pellets strikes at the ranges given.

First a 40 yard pattern with 1.25 oz of lead size A with 14 pellet strikes.

 

post-13424-0-01650500-1454782565_thumb.jpg

 

 

This next one is a 1.5 oz of lead BB at 50 yards with 7 pellet strikes.

 

post-13424-0-85665500-1454782673_thumb.jpg

 

 

Hope the photo's upload ok and when I have time I will pattern some 3" loads and add those.

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Pattern shot with 1.25oz load looks good stretch it to 50 see how it opens up.

 

Thanks for comment Furyan. The 1.25 oz load opens up quite a bit at 50 yards and will not put 6 hits into the kill areas with any reliability, have tried various chokes from half to extra full plus longer barrels but not happy with results.

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MAB,thank you for this empirical data.

 

It pretty well confirms a century plus of modern shotgun performance- 40 yeards is realistic,50 maybe and thereafter diminishing effective patterns....with standard loading processes (ie relatively unrestricted shot). Increasing shot load and choke can give some limited gains,but they remain modest.

Edwardian great game shots won't be supprised in the least.Punt gunners might reflect too.

 

This is even more so on moving targets-Bob Brister's superb work (Shotgunning-the Art and the science) showed that the shot column that inpinges on a stationary target is much better than what happens with a game speed target-where much of what would be on a stationary test plate is well behind the moving target,and therefore patterns in raeal sporting shooting are so much the less dense....he towed the targets (duck outlines eg on big sheets behind a truck at realistic speeds...brilliant-though his drawings were

maybe a bit better than your foxes,but point is made :-)

 

The 'cheddite design' might well improve on all this,perhaps with safety implications...we'll see-I'm not at all anti shotgun,but sometimes pro rifle,eg for stationary fox at 100+ yards,but not pheasant at 125 feet,with a following wind...

 

The best way to shoot such pheasants is with an Edwardian top shot,with 1oz no6 shot,cylinder barrel. The second barrel is for the next pheasant !

 

atb

gbal

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More or less agree with your post No 60 gbal. I would like to point out that my loads work on live, moving targets at estimated ranges of between 35 & 50 yards. Also my 3 inch loads are effective a bit further out still but I do not claim an acceptable 100 yard pattern nor do I use a shotgun for 100 yard shots, indeed I have never pattern tested beyond 60 yards, longest shot on a moving, Fox size, target estimated to be 50 - 55 yards.

The title of this thread caught my attention and I decided to see how far a pattern would hold together on a Fox size target, that is totally different to shooting a live target.

Like I said in an earlier post, when I have time I will pattern some 3 inch 11/2 & 15/8 oz loads and put the results on here. By using modern wads designed for steel and by matching the choke to the load to optimize the pattern things have moved on a bit from 100 years ago.

ATB.

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. By using modern wads designed for steel and by matching the choke to the load to optimize the pattern things have moved on a bit from 100 years ago.

 

Grateful if you would you explain the thinking behind the difference steel wads are making to the range you're getting with lead (the 40m patterns you've posted are very impressive!)

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Grateful if you would you explain the thinking behind the difference steel wads are making to the range you're getting with lead (the 40m patterns you've posted are very impressive!)

 

100 years ago we had fibre wads, limited powders and fix choke guns, the only guns that where optimized for patterns where top grade guns and even then it was for a single cartridge load say a 1 oz load of size 6 for game shooting. These guns went to the elite 2-3% of shooters who could afford the cost, the rest just got on with it with what they had hence range was limited if wounding was to be avoided. Next along came plastic wads for lead shot and these I believed improved the average pattern from all guns.

Then steel shot became a requirement for some sport shooting and in order to protect the shotgun barrels from hard steel shot the plastic wads where made more robust. These robust thick wads open more slowly thus holding the shot together in the cup for a longer period after leaving the barrel. This is just my view but I believe it is one of the reasons I have decent patterns out to 50 yards and beyond.

Screw in chokes where the next step forward giving all that could afford the aftermarket options an almost unlimited selection of choke boring. Patterns vary even between claimed full choke boring from different manufacturers, at least they do with large lead shot, further changes to patterns are seen by replacing a standard length choke with an extended one even if both are marked the same boring. For my pattern testing I have a selection of chokes ranging from IC to American turkey chokes, bored as tight as 0.655 inch, I normally test with a standard length full choke bored 0.690 inch and develop from that.

Hope that answers your question, I will post further results when I have time.

ATB.

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I finally got around to testing some loads I made up on something like the cheddite design. I took a standard 28g #8 plastic wad clay load as a start point, this is just for proof of principle. I cut the leaves off one plastic wad, then took a Winchester WAA12 wad and cut it off at the top of the compression section to get just the shot cup. This is a standard lead shot wad, but has relatively stiff leaves attached along the whole circumference at the bottom, not designed to break off in flight.

I loaded this with the shot cup inverted over the shot charge, in a reloaded hull, with a roll crimp to hold it in. I loaded 4.

 

Pattern tests were done with a sheet of cardboard. Cylinder choke was used for all 4 shots, I was trying to see how the wad behaved with range, choke is another variable which is worth investigating. I am not sure at all what effect choke will have with this type of loading, choke elongates the shot string and as such will pull pellets out of the wad, the opposite of what I thought I wanted, though in hindsight....

 

At 30, 40 and 50m the result was a 12g hole where the wad and vast majority of the shot had gone through, with a very small corona of shot around it, and a larger area of very sparse pattern. Total about 80 pellets of a 450 pellet charge hit the card individually. Clearly most of the shot remained in the cup, but it wasn't encapsulated as the base wad fell away and went about 40m. I didn't see how hard this hit, there was nothing behind the cardboard and I couldn't find any impact marks on the ground further downrange.

 

With my one remaining shell I decided to go right out to 70m to see if I could get a pattern from after the cup turned over. This time the shot cup ended up on the ground about 40m downrange, the pattern on the card was just a bare few pellets.

 

In conclusion, without considering the effects of choke, I think my initial guess at the behaviour of this type of load was not far off, they are unpredictable and do not give a reliable pattern at a given range.

However, I may have discovered a section 2 legal, cheap, ricochet free, probably safe to fire at high angles, short range "slug" load!

 

I have some pics of the loads and patterns I may put up if I can get the files the right size on the right machine, but I don't think they tell a lot that the words haven't already said.

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does anyone know the BC of a bb or similar so I can work out the remaining energy at 100m when launched at 1400fps?[/quote

 

Such a datum may exist.It's what this thread needs....so let's hope ....

 

Would a G1 BC -or a BC based even more on a "round nose" shape - be close enough,given the BB is a ball.

You'd need the weight and diameter too,of course.

 

It might indicate if there is any mileage (well,yardage) in further testing (mainly for pattern) even if not second decimal exact.

But it needs doing- very much earlier in this intriguing thread,I gave the very poor retained energy values for standard shot like size 6 which pretty much eliminated such shot for anything serious at such distances (maybe break a clay,with a stray) :-)

 

gbal

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ok , I found bb air rifle pellet data on ballistic fte and a 7.7g pellet launched at 1400fps retains 2 ft/lbs at 100m and drops 24'' so you will need to compensate for drop by the looks of things ?

 

the bc is 0.014 G1 by the way

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OK,thanks for this data, tackb-which, up to BB at least,confirms much field/marsh/foreshore experience-and punt guns woulded a lot (a 12 bore criple stopper was standard extra gear)- something like normal shotgunning isn't the way. Hence ,maybe Cheddite.....

As Matt said earlier,the ball game may change if the shot can be somehow prevented from dispersing at all,though they must eventually-until quite near the target....IF so,then the energy levels change dramatically.

Note,we can't get there cumulatively- 50 pellets at 2 ft lb each are not equivalent to one at 100ft lb (though that from a 22lr is probably marginal anyhow)...hailstones are not fatal! (nor is a skeet load of 9 shot at 50 metres,but don't try it at home).

 

Back to the dawing board-how do we get shot-and it will need to be quite large so that there is energy still when released from the captive wad cup-to travel down range for at least 75 yards,then spread about 20 inch,fox size-or at least to give a sufficient pattern,fox sized.

Drop of shot is a separate issue,but much less problematic,and the principles are well established in rifle use- (aim high).

 

If only someone could bang off some cheddites at a fox silhouette at 100yards,preferable with a phone book backing/similar to check penetration,roughly.

 

Seems simple enough.... unless there are no Cheddites, so any Luddites get a non proven draw by default :-)

 

"Better to know" ,the ultimate empirical justification of science.

 

gbal

 

gbal

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Here is a very basic formula that I use its not perfect but close enough.

 

12 gauge cartridge loaded with BB [0.160" dia] with muzzle velocity of 1250fps.

Lead BB pellets weigh 6.23 grains.

Remaining velocity at 50 yards I estimate at 750fps. Pellets will loss velocity rapidly over distance, hence the reason I prefer larger shot for longer range.

 

Energy = Velocity x Velocity x weight / 450240
Estimated velocity at 50 yards is 750 fps.
750 x 750 x 6.23/450240
7.78ft/lbs per pellet.
Multiply result with number of pellet strikes - say 6 in vital areas.
6 x 7.78 = 46.7ft/lbs.
Just an indication of energy at 50 yards, and seems quite close to some American writers findings on pellets energy.
Now if you want 100 yards forget BB you will need something much bigger say 1 Buck [0.300" dia].
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  • 3 weeks later...

Nice day today so went out and patterned some home loads this post will be on a 12 gauge 23/4 inch case with 13/8 oz of lead BB shot [0.160 inch dia]. Shotgun was a Mossberg 500 with 24 inch full choke barrel.

This load puts out effective patterns out to 60 yards beyond that some shots hold killing pattern while others open up and fail to make the 6 hits on head/vitals.

 

post-13424-0-66252900-1457196698_thumb.jpg

 

35 yard pattern 15 hits on head/vitals.

 

 

post-13424-0-03106400-1457196772_thumb.jpg

 

60 yard pattern 6 hits on head/vitals.

 

Will add more later.

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A surprising pattern test result, same gun and choke as previous post but cartridge was a home load with 8 x 34 cal buckshot. Tested at 30 & 40 yards and patterns where very tight with 5 to 8 hits on fox size target however out at 50 yards still getting 3 plus hits and once put all 8 pellets in the fox at 50 yards.

So much for folk that claim a barn door size pattern with large buck shot, it can be loaded to produce killing patterns at extended range. In America it is loaded commercially for extended range use but not seen any in UK but can't even get a supply of standard stuff here.

One note on safety if anyone plans to use large buck. A large buckshot pellet will have a lot of energy and travel further than say an English size 5 pellet therefore you must have a safe back stop behind the target, as per rifle shooting.

 

post-13424-0-12787500-1457257945_thumb.jpg

 

 

3 hits with 34 cal buckshot at 50 yards.

 

 

post-13424-0-08440600-1457258043_thumb.jpg

 

All 8 x 34 cal pellets in fox at 50 yards.

 

I have patterned some 12 gauge 3 inch loads of 15/8 oz English size A [0.180 inch- 4.5mm] and results are good at 60 yards but unreliable at 75 yards so still working on that. I am thinking of trying a buffered load but waiting for buffer to arrive.

The other problem I'm having is shotgun bead sights and old eyes are not helping the 75 yard testing.

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very interesting !

 

I cant wait for the 100m results/pictures

 

what I'm seeing at the moment is a 50-60 m fox killer (reliably) be interesting to see if modern tech can double that range ?

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