low velocity loads for 20 TAC

[Raifuru]

Now I will freely admit, that I usually question the people who ask for low loads for cartridges, as unless subsonic I have seen no point. I do low load the 45/70 so I can plink without replacing my fillings.

I have completely lost the argument with my HMR and the lottery level of accuracy between boxes of ammunition. I consider the 20 running flat out, too much gun for some of my shoots. So was wondering rather than buying a Hornet or WMR, could I download the 20 to give me around 2800 ish with 32 grain bullets?

[hunter686]

Kind of defeats the propose of the rifle does it not? Would be like putting slippers on a sprinter. What is the purpose you want it for?

[justin credible]

2800 with a 32 grainer is still going to vaporise what it hits..........so what's the point?

 

If you consider a 20tac at full chat "too much gun for your shoot" then it maybe time to practise and only head shoot stuff.

[gbal]

Hmmm, Raifuru has some concerns with some of his shoots-presumably about "safety" (yes,I know,but less 'power' but still frangible/less likely to ricochet is a consideration,as is "PR"-to be seen using an appropriate tool for the job....)

Downloaded may have accuracy issues,but if not,why not?

 

Sprinters wear slippers in the house,easier on the carpets.

 

If light bullets and moderate velocity are NOT ok,why does anyone buy a 17HMR (17g@2550)-even if the ammo were excellent-surely on the reverse argument,they should get 20 tac performance-actually much more,20 Swift or 20 250..or etc etc...

 

A somewhat bettter analogy is with golf-while a driver makes a hopeless mashie niblick,a two iron will do for most drives,and even be a useable putter.It's still a hopeless mashie niblick.Half a set gets most playing OK,one club is limiting, The golf analogy is limited,but so is a sprinter's speed at home!

Actually I was there when the then British Pro sprint champ was beaten over 100y, by someone just better equipped for that race,even though the champ had his spikes,not slippers. Pure velocity is not the only criterion,though it is very important in foot races.

 

I'd be considering changing the 17HMR for a 17 Hornet/similar - because the 17HMR ammo is so unsatisfactory -but Raiferu is clearly sensible in exploring short term options instead.

 

gbal

[gunner]

This is the area i was thinking about a month or so back , about building a replacement for the hmr but reloadable , 17bee , i gave up , too costly . Id love it if they brought out and standardized a new case with hmr similar ballistics ! I doubt it would happen tho the hornet from hmr is almost too a bigger step up .

[247sniper]

No such thing as too much gun.......20 Tac, just take head shots, it's as simple as that. If you can't take a rabbits head off out to 250 on a windy day then you need more practice.

[gbal]

Gunner,as the Bee has/had more capacity than the Hrnet,would you not end up with a 17Bee in the same ball park as the 17Hornet (though that as commercially loaded is boosted by superformance powder,and,as you say 20g @3650 is a different bunny park.

The (obsolete) 5mm Remington RF mag was an option that commercially failed,though Andrew in Montana might have news,as I think he shoots one,and a few years back Aguila were bringing out revamped ammo (Centurion/Aguila 30g@2300fps.) but maybe it didn't work out either.No trace in UK.

 

Though the Hornet has had a very mixed ride,with variable accuracy,maybe the newer rifles-often European-and reloading options-especially better bullets,offer the best available options and some flexibility? Or a somewhat gently reloaded 221 Fireball.

 

Back in the day,I decided that if the distance was over 100y, 222 or 17 rem did it all a lot better.And still does.

 

gbal

[The_Dogge]

Now I will freely admit, that I usually question the people who ask for low loads for cartridges, as unless subsonic I have seen no point. I do low load the 45/70 so I can plink without replacing my fillings.

I have completely lost the argument with my HMR and the lottery level of accuracy between boxes of ammunition. I consider the 20 running flat out, too much gun for some of my shoots. So was wondering rather than buying a Hornet or WMR, could I download the 20 to give me around 2800 ish with 32 grain bullets?

If I wanted to reduce the load I would probably start with the info from https://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/H4895%20Reduced%20Rifle%20Loads.pdf they list H4895 for the 20Tac, so 60% max load should be ok.

 

But what are you really trying to achieve? More barrel life? lower noise? Less meat damage? the differences are marginal at best.

I made some reduced 243 loads on the same recipe once, they were very accurate, but I don't use them now. Why would I bother loading 2 different loads? and the hassle of working up if they weren't very accurate to start with, you could waste a load of time and components.

Noise was not noticeably different from behind the gun, may have been more effect downrange.

[Raifuru]

Hmmm, Raifuru has some concerns with some of his shoots-presumably about "safety" (yes,I know,but less 'power' but still frangible/less likely to ricochet is a consideration,as is "PR"-to be seen using an appropriate tool for the job....)

Downloaded may have accuracy issues,but if not,why not?

 

Sprinters wear slippers in the house,easier on the carpets.

 

If light bullets and moderate velocity are NOT ok,why does anyone buy a 17HMR (17g@2550)-even if the ammo were excellent-surely on the reverse argument,they should get 20 tac performance-actually much more,20 Swift or 20 250..or etc etc...

 

A somewhat bettter analogy is with golf-while a driver makes a hopeless mashie niblick,a two iron will do for most drives,and even be a useable putter.It's still a hopeless mashie niblick.Half a set gets most playing OK,one club is limiting, The golf analogy is limited,but so is a sprinter's speed at home!

Actually I was there when the then British Pro sprint champ was beaten over 100y, by someone just better equipped for that race,even though the champ had his spikes,not slippers. Pure velocity is not the only criterion,though it is very important in foot races.

 

I'd be considering changing the 17HMR for a 17 Hornet/similar - because the 17HMR ammo is so unsatisfactory -but Raiferu is clearly sensible in exploring short term options instead.

 

gbal

Thanks gbal and a more erudite synopsis than mine. The Farmer on one of my shoots gets a little twitchy when he sees me with the 20. He prefers me to use something less noisy around the back of the paddocks. The HMR issue has really annoyed me as there is nothing I can do and I have totally lost confidence in the ammunition. The theory of reduced loads should also give my barrel a bit of a break on longer sessions. I am still in not sure of a replacement for the HMR and don't want to rush out and spend loads of money on a knee jerk buy. I also try to keep my variations to a minimum.

[rsc1960]

Even if you could find a low load for the 20 tac the bang is still going to be way above that of a hmr, I have been using the 20 tac calibre for a long time and never used/tried a low load, then again I don't run a hot load, I would say that I use a medium load and always have done in all 3 20 tac's I have had,I am not sure what barrel life you expect with the loads your using, but it should be rather a lot,unless your pushing both the rifle and the ammo to it's limits ?

 

Not sure what to say about the 17 hmr but mine seems fine and I think a lot of the ammo issues must have passed me by, not sure what you want to replace it with but Any small cf calibre will be a louder bang than your current hmr,

 

After all accuracy comes first speed just means you miss quicker and burn the barrel out faster.

 

RSC

[happyhunter]

Now I will freely admit, that I usually question the people who ask for low loads for cartridges, as unless subsonic I have seen no point. I do low load the 45/70 so I can plink without replacing my fillings.

I have completely lost the argument with my HMR and the lottery level of accuracy between boxes of ammunition. I consider the 20 running flat out, too much gun for some of my shoots. So was wondering rather than buying a Hornet or WMR, could I download the 20 to give me around 2800 ish with 32 grain bullets?

Is hmr really that bad its not within minute of bunny or fox out to 100-150yards?

[gunner]

Gunner,as the Bee has/had more capacity than the Hrnet,would you not end up with a 17Bee in the same ball park as the 17Hornet (though that as commercially loaded is boosted by superformance powder,and,as you say 20g @3650 is a different bunny park.

The (obsolete) 5mm Remington RF mag was an option that commercially failed,though Andrew in Montana might have news,as I think he shoots one,and a few years back Aguila were bringing out revamped ammo (Centurion/Aguila 30g@2300fps.) but maybe it didn't work out either.No trace in UK.

 

Though the Hornet has had a very mixed ride,with variable accuracy,maybe the newer rifles-often European-and reloading options-especially better bullets,offer the best available options and some flexibility? Or a somewhat gently reloaded 221 Fireball.

 

Back in the day,I decided that if the distance was over 100y, 222 or 17 rem did it all a lot better.And still does.

 

gbal

Hi G yes it would end up similar hornet fps , there are many reasons not to , im thinking on a 17 rem /223 parent case ( Lapua and plenty cheap good actions ) , but shortened down to a hmr volume ? This would likley be very short and feed crap ! But in a nice single shot bolt action or falling block ? Reamer costs, go ,no go gauge , and the dies needed to help form it , id be very interested in a group buy for all the kit . Im not sure if anyone would be remotely interested , but its really still just a pipe dream. But one day im going to do this - but need to weigh up the pros and cons of everything -!

[gunner]

Double post

[gunner]

Bugger forgot to say id probably sway to a .20 short case using the 32 SBK and suitable throat - but then think noo keep it 17 / reloadable and hmr or slightly higher fps .... Another thing id forgot is when id originally thought this new 17 cal id looked thru my handloading book at pistol cases that were suitable for necking down to .17 and the small .32 auto case looked perfect - but i have no idea if it could be gradually sized with good results ? Any smiths or advanced reloaders thoughts ? This is derailing the thread - sorry

 

Just read an interesting article -ed harris - 32acp in a rifle ?

 

Is hmr really that bad its not within minute of bunny or fox out to 100-150yards?

Yes with good ammo , but personaly wouldn't ( and didn't ) use on fox ... Atb

[gbal]

Hmmmm.....such a small cartridge will be problematic in cf-a project maybe,practical....wel,does it have to be !!

 

The 17 HMR rf case is .294 bolt head,1.060 OALand .238 girth

 

The 5 remRF Mag ws .320 .995 .252

 

Basic ballistics 17HMR 17g @2550;5Rem (Aguila loading) 30g@2300

 

The heavier bullet of course is useful in reducing MV.

 

Hence the Hornet with 55g@2400-a very easy option;the 17Hornet is 20g@3650......way too much-is it possible to load down the Hornet to 20g@2500 or thereabouts-if so,seems the (easy) way to go...I'm liking the idea of a BSA martini too-get some use for those lovely old rifles,at not much money,maybe.

 

Of course the 22WMR gives 30g@2250-my experience with three was that accuracy isn't great-more rece loadings might have improved on the very lmitedchoices once available-and maybe range with better BC bullets? rf though.

 

There have been rather a lot of 17 wildcats-or at least wildkittens,like the PeeWee (30 carbine /218 Bee brass) and the 17 Squirel-CS Landis and Ackley were playing with the idea post WW11-but it's a 17-218Bee and even then 20g@3800 when Ackleyed...as you said,it would have to be shortened-a lot! "They may develop into super crow cartridges...by the sixties..for use in settled areas where the bigger bits of (splattered) bullet are no bigger than the diamond in a $9.99 engagement ring".ie not cow killers.

 

But not super fox cartridges-the 17HMR is just not up to it reliably-the muzzle ft lb 245 might just be if you can get charlie that close,but 150ft lb at 150y is not.

 

Hornet with a reduced sting load -and quieter? -keeps resuggesting itself....

 

The 17 Squirrel is the Hornet shortened to around.996 (from 1.40) yet even with about 8g powder,is still 3500fps with 20vmax: a 'light game load'was around 5.9 N110 25 HP-no MV given,but 35g/40 g bullets might work.....downside-there is a fair bit of case work needed.....

so.....for such a niche cartridge need....back to Hornet,and a bit of compromise? :-)

or pray for HMR ammo !

g

[Andrew]

(Just for the record. Despite the '2370 ft/sec' listing, the Aguila 30 grain Varmint HP 5mm load gives around 2500 fps. Devastating on prairiedogs and will 'unzip' a dog at 150 yards. I shoot quite a bit of it from a Thompson Center single shot carbine and Remington 591M rifle. With the recent explosion at the Industrias Tecnos plant, however, deliveries have been slim ~Andrew)

[gbal]

Thanks,Andrew. I don't think any 5mm rifles made it over here-early '70s when I was looking.Shame,looks like a useful catridge-esp when ammo is available-the Aguila loading is a bit uprated compared the original (38g@2100).

How does cost stack up against the 17HMR,when you can get it?

g

[Andrew]

Thanks,Andrew. I don't think any 5mm rifles made it over here-early '70s when I was looking.Shame,looks like a useful catridge-esp when ammo is available-the Aguila loading is a bit uprated compared the original (38g@2100).

How does cost stack up against the 17HMR,when you can get it?

g

Accuracy is about the same but performance on game is far better. As I said, a prairiedog that just flops and kicks when hit with a 17HMR, explodes when hit with a 30 grn HP from the 5mm at 150 yards. I did extensive testing of the cartridge as the man who was Aguils's chief engineer at the time of the 5mm R&D is a good friend of mine. An interesting facet of owning the Thompson Center rifle is that I can also shoot "5mmCraig" which is a centerfire version of the 5mm Remington Magnum -developed during the period between 1984 when Remington stopped making ammo and 2005 when Aguila took up production. There is a simple CF bolt head conversion available for the Remington 590 series. I have one. The T/C simplifies things. For rimfire I flip the selector to one side, for CF handloads I switch it the other way! The brass is lathe turned, or formed from lathe-modified Hornet brass. My 32 grain CF loads over Lil Gun top 2600 fps. It's a lot of fun. We tried Lil Gun in the rimfire cases but it did not work well with Eley Priming, and pressures -while safe- were erratic.~Andrew

[Alycidon]

17 Hornet centerfire fills the gap better, 20 gr pills at 3500 or so, ideal for rabbits, crows etc out to about 200 yards given a wind below 5mph. More wind = less distance as they do get blown around.

 

I use more 17AH rounds than my 20 and 6mm cals, but its NOT a fox round. If they are likely to be on the menu just use your 20 cal.

 

A

[Scotch_egg]

Chop the .20 Tac to 14" that will bring the velocity down a treat.

 

mine is 18" no idea what the velocity is but the fox's don't get chance to complain

[aam]

Raifuru,

 

I don’t have a 20 Tac. I do use reduced loads in my 223 with good results. At least for what it was intended for.

 

I know what you mean in regards to, too much gun. Also some of the owners on the properties I shoot on get a little anxious when they hear the load crack of the 223.

 

Even though these loads are for the 204 Ruger they can be adapted for the 20 tac.

Link, 24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/1996028/page/1

 

Please note that pistol powder is being used in the link above. I myself am using ap50n which is an Aussie powder that’s equivalent to Green Dot for my reduced in the 223.

As you are already using reduced loads in your 45/70, then you know the risks involved, especially with pistol powder.

 

aam

[Raifuru]

Raifuru,

 

I don’t have a 20 Tac. I do use reduced loads in my 223 with good results. At least for what it was intended for.

 

I know what you mean in regards to, too much gun. Also some of the owners on the properties I shoot on get a little anxious when they hear the load crack of the 223.

 

Even though these loads are for the 204 Ruger they can be adapted for the 20 tac.

Link, 24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/1996028/page/1

 

Please note that pistol powder is being used in the link above. I myself am using ap50n which is an Aussie powder that’s equivalent to Green Dot for my reduced in the 223.

As you are already using reduced loads in your 45/70, then you know the risks involved, especially with pistol powder.

 

aam

Blimey... Good find. Thanks for that

[gbal]

Chop the .20 Tac to 14" that will bring the velocity down a treat.

mine is 18" no idea what the velocity is but the fox's don't get chance to complain

Individually a bit variable,maybe 30 feet per second per inch removed,bit less as barrel length d

 

Certainly will get the velocity down,but just for the OP,how do we tape the barrel back on to restore velocity for the longer shots?

The idea was not to need two rifles;but possibly the shortened barrel would be sufficient....at some cost....then why a 20 tac at all?

 

gbal

[Si-Snipe]

Now I will freely admit, that I usually question the people who ask for low loads for cartridges, as unless subsonic I have seen no point. I do low load the 45/70 so I can plink without replacing my fillings.

I have completely lost the argument with my HMR and the lottery level of accuracy between boxes of ammunition. I consider the 20 running flat out, too much gun for some of my shoots. So was wondering rather than buying a Hornet or WMR, could I download the 20 to give me around 2800 ish with 32 grain bullets?

I don't personally feel downloading a cartridge that's shooting very light bullets is beneficial. Part of the mega frangibility is due to bullet construction and high velocity. Reducing velocity will reduce the expansion slightly. With 32g bullets it's as safe as it's going to get. I use 20g in 17Rem now at 4400 fps. If I reduced it to 2500 fps I don't personally think it would be any safer.

[Raifuru]

Found a rather nice 22H Ruger, so have decided to go that route. Been 14 years since I had a Hornet. Looking forward to it.