Rifle Barrels From Spain

[Wsm]

This topic is about rifle barrels not poaching,moderators or parks and pens.The relevent parties have been warned once by pm regarding the topic but continue to carry on this contest of one upmanship as per usual

 

No more warnings will be given and if you want to continue these games do it somewhere other than this forum

 

David- Spoken like a true Scot

[ds1]

I think it`s a bloody good idea to be able to bring in a quality barrel, with reduced cost.

 

My 2p on barrels is that cut is best, you should expect a good cut barrel 100% of the time and the process lends itself to fluting and heavy profiling better. However you pay for it - I have and have been very pleased with the Border Gucci I had, but I dont need that on evry stick. It`s quite sickening if say you only need .5moa accuracy to rapidly shoot the s..t out of an expensive cut barrel......that you waited a year for.

 

It makes sense to me that if you can get the same accuracy out of a button barrel (90 % of the time), cheaper and are shooting a lot and / or using a barrel burner. 6.5-284 (1500 rounds may be), 7WSM (800 rounds) etc. I guess in F Class thats about 2 barrels per season. If the Dago barrels are as good as Border Archer barrels, cheaper and available then why wouldn`t you?

 

BTW, using a button barrel on a decent factory stick tends to give the company a decent reputation - AI rifles used, for the main Border, LW or Maddco button jobs. They may not be precision machines but few say they shoot like s..t.

 

I`m also unsure why all the concern over the barrel shooting as good as the top BR barrels, for a start as mentioned the barrels the top BR shooters use are selected from many.

 

I can see the point that if someone only shoots a couple of hundred rounds a year through a particular rifle - in the long run cut cost nothing more, but if you shoot a lot and see barrels as replaceable components then it will be very good news if these barrels turn out to be good.

 

By good I mean able to be competive with other barrels on similar type rifles shot in similar comps (in other words if you plug one into an RPA Interceptor it should be able to shoot the same as a Interceptor with a Archer on it - then it would get interesting quickly).

 

David.

[Jager SA]

Kal did this company exibit at the IWA?

 

I'd be all for machine lapping, if it gets complicated

hands cannot cope. We're honing and lapping hard materials

since years, machines can sense torque and pressure much quicker

and always at the same level.

One wants concistancy, only then one will actually recognise improvements

in the process.

 

I'd give one of those barrels a go, especially if they were on stock and

at a good price.

 

Anyway, good on you Kal for having the guts to try it out.

 

edi

 

 

Edi

 

Yes these guys were at the IWA.

 

Im hoping the UK shipment will arrive mid July, the only drawback at the minute is the lack of twist rates. All the barrels are 1-10 from 224 to 30 cal but its not a bad twist, pretty much middle of the road and ok for Hunting. Others will be available as soon as.

 

Got to try these things Edi even if the internet trolls think otherwise...

[ejg223]

I'm sure I had a close look at their stand at IWA and was impressed.

actually we talked about the that evening.

 

1in10 22-250 could be interesting.

 

Pity about a few that mess up a forum.

 

edi

[Jager SA]

I'm sure I had a close look at their stand at IWA and was impressed.

actually we talked about the that evening.

 

1in10 22-250 could be interesting.

 

Pity about a few that mess up a forum.

 

edi

 

 

Yep we did chat about them, and the barrels I saw the other day were actually better.

 

I can have a 1-10 224 for next month mate no probs, I think these barrels have some serious potential and am happy to be involved.

 

So this is the question to all of you that are genuinly interested, if your not interested then save your breath and energy and leave the thread to the real shooters.

 

What twists, calibres, barrel lengths and profiles would you be looking for?

[ds1]

Hi kal,

 

I think you could manage most cals with 3 twist. This is mainly in relation to paper punching though.

 

.22 cal, 1in8, 1in10, 1in12. Wide variety of boolits and cases

 

6mm, 1in8

6.5mm, 1in8

7mm, 1in8

 

.30, 1in12 (155 grain pills), 1in 10 heavy stuff 300wm+

 

.338, 1in10

 

David.

[Jager SA]

jAMES YOU GET A FREE LESSONS IF YOU DRIVE IN THE NUDE AND HALF PRICE FOR FLASHING YOUR TITS But you beter believe mate every one trys to cut the price and i do bend a bit at limes So keep prices low

 

 

 

Dave, remind me not to get into a car with you mate, it dont bear thinking about, you in the nude and flashing your tits...

 

Without pushing my luck I am hoping to offer these at £200 retail but that is all dependant on the Euro and negotiation on price.

 

Border Blanks are as followa: Archer £393 Border Gucci £564 PLUS FITTING ETC,

 

Dont quote me on this though.

[col48]

Yep we did chat about them, and the barrels I saw the other day were actually better.

 

I can have a 1-10 224 for next month mate no probs, I think these barrels have some serious potential and am happy to be involved.

 

So this is the question to all of you that are genuinly interested, if your not interested then save your breath and energy and leave the thread to the real shooters.

 

What twists, calibres, barrel lengths and profiles would you be looking for?

 

 

james

 

just because people don't agree with you does not mean they are Internet trolls,

 

i personally would think that you would have a price sorted out for the barrels if you are the UK sole importer, and you are asking people to make inquiries.

 

all so the prices you have posted are for fitted barrels, the price of barrels from border are (retail )

 

archers barrel blank is £216

 

archers contoured barrel £245

 

and the border barrel is ( retail )

 

barrel blank £388

 

contoured barrel blank £416

 

 

and loather Walther will be about £250 (i don't have the exact retail price as i get mine trade) and you don't need to spend 2 hour es polishing them as the finish on the outside is fantastic.

as for the inside well i have had a few premium barrels and L/W are the best to date, not had a bad one yet.

and our Ian can verify the quality of L/W barrels as he has had a couple from me and i do believe they shoot real good,

 

so can you please send me down one of your barrels as i would like to lean it up in my safe so i can call myself a real shooter

 

now i have very little knowledge of the barrels you have on offer but here are a few things i would like to know about them.

 

(1) what twist rates/calibers are available to date

 

(2) what contours are available in the price (when we get one that is)

 

(3) how much is it for none listed contours

 

(4) do they come polished and to what standard (what finishers are available)

 

(5) what barrel length is standard IE 26"

 

(6) how much is it for extra barrel length

 

(7) How do they clean

 

(8) price and availability

 

(9) are all the barrels drilled for mounts like the tc

 

just a few things i would like to know not having a pop before you all start

 

ATB

Colin

[between the eyes]

Well that took over an hour t go through that lot with the links etc.. They look the part, the proof of the pudding will be in the eating. Looks promising though. I bet that your looking forward to getting them Kal.

[Jager SA]

james

 

just because people don't agree with you does not mean they are Internet trolls,

 

i personally would think that you would have a price sorted out for the barrels if you are the UK sole importer, and you are asking people to make inquiries.

 

all so the prices you have posted are for fitted barrels, the price of barrels from border are (retail )

 

archers barrel blank is £216

 

archers contoured barrel £245

 

and the border barrel is ( retail )

 

barrel blank £388

 

contoured barrel blank £416

and loather Walther will be about £250 (i don't have the exact retail price as i get mine trade) and you don't need to spend 2 hour es polishing them as the finish on the outside is fantastic.

as for the inside well i have had a few premium barrels and L/W are the best to date, not had a bad one yet.

and our Ian can verify the quality of L/W barrels as he has had a couple from me and i do believe they shoot real good,

 

so can you please send me down one of your barrels as i would like to lean it up in my safe so i can call myself a real shooter

 

now i have very little knowledge of the barrels you have on offer but here are a few things i would like to know about them.

 

(1) what twist rates/calibers are available to date

 

(2) what contours are available in the price (when we get one that is)

 

(3) how much is it for none listed contours

 

(4) do they come polished and to what standard (what finishers are available)

 

(5) what barrel length is standard IE 26"

 

(6) how much is it for extra barrel length

 

(7) How do they clean

 

(8) price and availability

 

(9) are all the barrels drilled for mounts like the tc

 

just a few things i would like to know not having a pop before you all start

 

ATB

Colin

 

Col

 

I havent asked for people to agree with me, not once, all I have done is post a thread some might be interested in reading.

 

Prices havent been sorted yet as these barrels are new to the UK market, it isnt uncommon for pricing to be confirmed as ive said.

 

The prices I initially posted were in response to Funkys post regarding fitted barrels in general. The new prices posted are like for like with Border as the bergara barrels will come fluted and bead blasted as standard.

 

I havent doubted other barrels or manufacturers, im just testing the water with this venture to see what people think.

 

1, Twist rates and cals have already been covered to date.

 

2, Contours and pricing as has been said TBC.

 

3, Non listed contours havent been discussed, but im sure things will happen.

 

4, All barrels are bead blasted to a very high standard, the process is amazing.

 

5, Standard length is 28", longer lengths im sure will be available.

 

6, PRICES TBC

 

7, As ive not got the shipment of barrels Col I wouldnt know but I would guess they will clean up very well as the CNC honing makes the interior spotless.

 

8, Havent we covered this?

 

9, The TC barrels are different ball game, but why would you need open sights on a CF barrel?

 

 

Again, this is a new venture on both sides, ALL prices are not confirmed yet, some of the technical aspects are also still on the drawing board.

[shootingbags]

Col,

 

I must admit the LW barrels do seem very good. I have heard of 1 very bad one which had to come back of the rifle but 1 in how ever many hundreds if not thousands isn't bad.

 

All I can say is the proof of the Spanish barrels will be in the shooting so the sooner James can get one fitted and tested the better.

[JR__]

The only way anyone is going to know if they are worth a that which promotes growth and vigour is if they put their money where their mouth is, buy one, and fit it to an action. I can look at the process they showed on the video and tell at the very least, the process they use to manufacture their barrels looks sound. They seem to have their 's**t' together, and that is because instead of trying to reverse engineer the process of making a barrel thinking it's easy, they went straight to a barrelmaker to get the straight dope and set it up as he recommended. Then on top of that, they went and automated many of the processes. Smart people, they wanted it and went for it. Like I sad, gave me a lot of ideas on the production side..

 

Col,

 

G David is a phoenomena, he is good and he knows it. We've had many very good private conversations about barrels and shooting, what we could never get past with each other is I don't give barrels away. He mentioned to me one time "JR, I haven't bought a barrel since blah blah', bless him....My ex old boss Tom Houghton Sr at HS Precision was a world class benchrester comp type for many years, and he imparted much wisdom in regards to running a profitable business. I asked many times why we don't get more blanks out to the BR crowd, as we had pipes shooting the lights out downstairs in the underground tunnel, and my own rifles I'd rebarreled and built for myself over the years I'd worked there not one shot over a 1/4" 5 shot group when qualified. I said Tom, we could really do well, get our name out there for custom barrels, get our names in PS and the BR newsletter. He says 'JR, you'll never make real money in that market. Stick with customers who pay.' And he was right, I've seen it . We had a couple years at Border where we'd hooked up a top US 22lr BR smith, our pipes were doing very well with the rifles he was building, and borders were very much in demand, at national level were many border barrels in the equip lists of top 50 shooters in the US. But there wasn't a lot of money in it, was too much of a niche market really. When he and Geoff fell out the relationship ended, but it didn't hurt the business too much. Was nice to have the recognition while it lasted, but I can see why one wouldn't necessarily push and shove to get into that market.. A lot of companies will not coddle or cater to many of the prima donna whims that type of shooting often attracts, which isn't everyone mind, and just because certain manufacturers may not be on the BR equipment lists does not mean their products aren't good enough to do the job. And that is why you usually won't see me qualify a good or bad barrel by checking whether the Bresters are using them. Anymore, I either eyeball the barrel or figure out how they run the barrels thru the process before opening my gob.

 

As far as the Archer v Border, I can't really say because I don't know the situation at the moment. While I was there though, it was much easier and less work to cut rifle an accurate barrel for a customer and get it out the door. When you were doing a barrel one at a time it was easier, for custom. Partly because my process control was so tight on the cut side, made sure of that, did not deviate, which made it easier to reproduce accurate holes on a regular basis, and made forecasting delivery rates a hell of a lot easier, and the way the cr was set up was to be versatile, not production run set up do all the 30 cals 12 twist, then move on to next. Controlled chaos, ran like clockwork, tried to keep the interference of the Archer side out as much as possible as we shared many of the same machines for the processing. There's some fine tuning which could have been done on the other side with the processing, as it could get random, and I think the main thing is they get some more room, more machinery to handle the production oem as well as the customer tubes. Many of the same processes employed with production and customer barrels, but I think you have to hold the customer barrels to a better standard, and that can only be done once you have the capacity to run the production properly. Still in it's infancy, but the Archer barrels do perform well. They can only get better once Border expands.

 

JR

[JR__]

Col,

 

I must admit the LW barrels do seem very good. I have heard of 1 very bad one which had to come back of the rifle but 1 in how ever many hundreds if not thousands isn't bad.

 

All I can say is the proof of the Spanish barrels will be in the shooting so the sooner James can get one fitted and tested the better.

 

LW has come a long way in the past 5 yrs, perhaps upgraded their machinery, quality control, or the skill level has just improved that much with their type of steel, because there was a time I could spot a Lothar Walther by smell. We used to get barrels in to repair, or see if the barrels were recoverable from some of the companies we shared contracts with, and some of those mistakes were doozies..But as of late as I said, in the past 5 years or so, they are doing much better in that respect. The sausage eaters are producing a good pipe, the steel they are using is interesting, and I like to see companies pushing the envelope like they do .

 

JR

[JR__]

didnt the Spanish make good swords too

so JR in your expert opinion which is best

Hand lapping

machine lapping

 

Funky, in my opinion it depends on who is setting up or doing either process. You can f' up either way, hahah..One, Bergara isn't machine lapping in the grooves, which is usually what the handlappers do. They are honing the bore previous to pulling the button thru, which is resulting in a groove without reamer marks or ripples on the surface. It isn't all about shiny, because too shiny becomes sticky, but anyway I prefer my surface finish at a certain quality, and most importantly to flow with the helix of the twist which you won't get by honing the bore. But back to machine lapping as such, if the right person set up the job, you could do just as good a job and more efficiently done than having to employ and train someone to do so by hand. Get back to me in a couple years on that one, because I plan on designing a machine to do just that for the SASS barrels. I believe I can teach a machine how to run the same process I do, in fact plan on setting it up to be able to taper lap as well. It's doable, just has to be set up right..

 

Sorry for these multiple posts, not trying to monopolise the thread or do the Mr know it all thing..Just had a chance to read thru and respond to some of the questions which I may be of some help..

 

JR

[Jager SA]

Get back to me in a couple years on that one, because I plan on designing a machine to do just that for the SASS barrels. I believe I can teach a machine how to run the same process I do, in fact plan on setting it up to be able to taper lap as well. It's doable, just has to be set up right..

 

JR

 

 

JR

 

Now that sounds interesting. If you have an interest in machinery and engineering the Bergara set up is fascinating, what ive said barely scratches the surface, im no expert.

[JR__]

Well Kal,

 

That's the perks of makin the tea for the new boss here... when he's bringing in quotes for jobs in the barreling side in the $10M- $300M range, gives me a little room to advance the old school methodology into new territory..Every barrelmaker has his own drawing of a machine which laps the barrels, it's just putting the funds together to build it, now it's just about when not if or how much.. We're setting up the cut rifling now, then on to hammer forge, then buttoning, and even looking into ECR for some special purpose jobs...Heavy production in some sectors, which is why the video was so neat here...I'm quoting a 6 barrel automatic gundrill now, was good to see one in motion, and that video may just help the new boss understand what is possible...

 

JR

[Jager SA]

Well Kal,

 

That's the perks of makin the tea for the new boss here... when he's bringing in quotes for jobs in the barreling side in the $10M- $300M range, gives me a little room to advance the old school methodology into new territory..Every barrelmaker has his own drawing of a machine which laps the barrels, it's just putting the funds together to build it, now it's just about when not if or how much.. We're setting up the cut rifling now, then on to hammer forge, then buttoning, and even looking into ECR for some special purpose jobs...Heavy production in some sectors, which is why the video was so neat here...I'm quoting a 6 barrel automatic gundrill now, was good to see one in motion, and that video may just help the new boss understand what is possible...

 

JR

 

 

Sounds good, sounds expensive too. I wondered if the process at Bergara was used anywhere else, not knowing much about barrel manufacturing I guess its a black hole.

 

The factory is a big site and the robotic side of the process is quite wierd, in that they seem alive and it gives you sense of Terminator syndrome! All said it it was a really good day to wonder around and see the plant in action and see a test barrel strutt its stuff.

[Jager SA]

nOW THIS IS REALLY FOR ALL BARRELS So if i get a barrel will they fit any rifle and while they might shoot good do some last longer than others eg a 500 pound barrel against a 200 pound barrell . Also i have just been on the web ste with out being cheacky here i am sure i can buy one and get it sent across would this be against the law.Would i need to get my RFD to take it. aLSO WILL ANY RIFLE SMITH FIT ONE FOR ME OR WILL THEY ONLY DO ONES THERE MAKEING CASH OFF.

 

I guess you can try Dave, but I wouldnt hold my breath. Are you being penny wise or pound foolish here? If I get the prices I want then the barrel will be around £200, now if your barrel comes in with shipping, vat and import how much will it be then?

 

Also if the barrel goes tits up what will you do, send it back?

 

Some smiths have this rule but I guess you could ask around.

[Jager SA]

James i am being Pennie wise spoke to my mate a smith he says just get one if you want he will take it in .Says buying from Europe is not like the states and if that is retail prices then the trade price should be a wee bit less than printed. He did say he has a few Spanish side by sides on his shelf that he cant shift for love nor money one is the same as mine a ugartachea . . 200 POUNDS JAMES IS AN OK PRICE BUT I AM SURE THAT MY MATE IS GATTING A PACNOR FOR NOT MUCH MORE 220 and there are a lot on here use them and say there great. I am sure your prices will suit the market and if there great then you will be on a winner bercause the price will go through the roof but it is a gamble and i dont gamble i just Drink to much

 

I think you will find the price is the price Dave, unless you buy a boat load...but knock yourself out mate.

 

I dont think you are quite grasping the idea here Dave but thats ok its not important.

Yes I guess £200 is a good price for the end user, I hope they do well out of it, but I havent mentioned trade or trade prices, again you have missed the point.

 

Im sure that your mate has some Spanish guns on his shelf he cant sell but never mind thats the chance you take.

 

So I take it I can out you down for a barrel then?

[eldon]

Kal, good luck with the barrels.

.... but my reason for the post is what happened to the cleaning products?

[Jager SA]

Kal, good luck with the barrels.

.... but my reason for the post is what happened to the cleaning products?

 

 

Thanks Eldon.

 

Still waiting for the order to be sorted...

[Jager SA]

James i did inquire as to if that barrel would be ok to bring across and get turned in to my dream 22.250 i was told no by the chap who will be doing my rifle. I did think looking at the europe prices that we would get it for the same, silly me for expecting that but if we can bring them across with out any hassle then the cost will be as printed.

I am sure there are chaps on here that will put us write on this but why would we pay import duty or vat on Europe goods .I am vat registered so 17.5 % will be returned.

Anyway lets not get into a big hassle on this i was looking for a cheap deal and prices quoted make it not that much better than the barrels already in use. eg walther border pacnor and the real expensive ones i don't think the Spanish barrels are trying to compete with them.

 

 

Dave I wont get into this but the barrels coming in from Bergara are all Fluted and bead blasted as standard. If your accountant can get you the vat back on your rifle barrel then good for you.

As with any Vat that gets passed on im afraid, thats just how it is, but goods from the EU are not subject to vat, I was refering to the US barrel you were talking about.

 

What you need to remember Dave is the US is a big animal in terms of shooting and related products, there are also more barrel makers and smiths in the US than Europe, the cost of living is a different ball game and the same for earning capacity. These facts coupled together drives the price of goods down enabling fair competition. So in real terms a barrel costing $200 would near as damn it cost £200 like or not that is the way of business im afraid.

 

If you can get a Pac-nor barrel to your specs for £200 I will have some of them too...

[Wsm]

James

 

I thought it was only europe that had problems finding reliable couriers

[Jager SA]

James

 

I thought it was only europe that had problems finding reliable couriers

 

 

 

It is but you need to aware of the Tsunami that strikes without warning...

[Wsm]

I think we`ve got all the information available at the moment and the next step is to actually see how these barrels perform in the flesh.

 

Please keep us posted on your progress James