Rimfire scope buying frustration - mil, MOA, reticles, focal plane etc

[snc_2010]

I'm currently shopping for a new scope for my .22LR.

 

I want very simple things:

Mildot ret

Mil knobs

Fixed 6x ish or first focal plane 3-12x ish variable

Fixed or side parallax

Not huge

Under £300

 

Now that the shooting world largely achknowledges the utter idocy of a variable with a second focal plane mildot and MOA knobs, why do they keep bloody making them?! It's just such a simple thing to do right...

There are of course people who do make sensible scopes but they're generally middle/top end. For example, March have managed to specify intelligently (and they're a relatively new company). Even Leupold nearly have some decent offerings.

 

 

Anyway, recommendations for a a scope gratefully accepted.

 

 

Yours,

Outraged of Oswestry

[bowji john]

I use a Sightron S11 (bigsky) 3 - 9 x 42 - (SIIB3942HHR)

 

Parallax fixed at 100m

 

​Simple reticle and easy to use - paid approx £300.00 from aim field sports

 

Good scope - thoroughly happy with it

 

j

[samuel]

Have a look at falcon scopes, uttings stock them I have a fixed 10 power has mil reticle mil turrets and side paralax haven't had any issues they also do ffp variable ones.

[DaveK]

Why go overboard. It's a .22RF. Any half decent airgun scope will do the job and do it well. I've had a Tasco on mine for more years than I care to remember.

 

Second focal plane, although it wouldn't really matter if it were first, and a bog basic plex reticle. Fixed or variable zoom is a personal preference but 6x or 8x capability is probably the norm. My preference is 8x but Lorraine has hers at 6x. Forget tactical or target turrets they'll just get in the way,.

 

Basically what I'm saying in on a .22RF keep it simple.

[David Hancock]

I second DaveK. You could look at the Vortex Crossfire 6-18x44 AO† with Dead-hold BDC Reticle as an option - around £190, or a Hawke who have a new range or MTC both have Mil reticles and well under £300 or have a squizz on Guntrader

[Guest Stacka]

Bsa sweet .22

[snc_2010]

Thank you for your help but there is no need to make generic suggestions. I know exactly what I want.

 

Mildot ret

Mil knobs

Fixed 6x ish or first focal plane 3-12x ish variable

Fixed or side parallax

Not huge

Under £300

[snc_2010]

Have a look at falcon scopes, uttings stock them I have a fixed 10 power has mil reticle mil turrets and side paralax haven't had any issues they also do ffp variable ones.

Thanks. I'm familiar with them. The fixed 10x is too much mag. The FFP variables are good but big. Keeping in mind as a back up (along with the SWFA SS 6x)

[Chris-NZ]

Not FFP nor mildot but close:

 

http://bushnell.com/hunting/rifle-scopes/ar-optics/3-9x-40mm

 

I have the 4.5-18 version on my PCP and I'm impressed with the bang for the buck

[snc_2010]

Not FFP nor mildot but close:

 

http://bushnell.com/hunting/rifle-scopes/ar-optics/3-9x-40mm

 

I have the 4.5-18 version on my PCP and I'm impressed with the bang for the buck

 

Thanks but I'm afraid an inch is as good as a mile.

[Shuggy]

Having researched this very topic a great deal, I am pretty confident that the only FFP mil/mil scope under £300 available in the UK are those sold by Falcon Optics. In the US, it is a different matter, with budget options from BSA, Weaver, SWFA and Primary Arms. But good luck finding a seller willing to ship one of these to the UK through ITAR.

 

There are one or two options at 10x, particularly the Bushnell Elite 3200, model 321040T, but I have never seen one for sale in the UK, only the 1/4 MOA version. And it seems that you have already discounted 10x as an option.

[snc_2010]

Sadly, that is the conclusion I had come to. Was hoping I'd missed something that someone on here had not but it sounds like you've done similar research to me.

Thanks for the suggestions available in the states. Some of them ring a bell from googling over the last few days.

 

Fixed 10x is fine for targets but too much for me for fast rabbiting.

[Swarovski1]

Fixed 10 mag would be no good for close shots, scope icture would just be a blur

[gbal]

Hi snc-Shuggy et al have probably covered you options,maybe you are ahead of the game here.

I know scopes are quite subjective,and I'd go with you on not mixing (any of the three) mil measures with moa-in a cf rifle,it is a complication for anyone (even if they can do simple multiplication-why should you have to!)

The majority of 22 rf users have managed without your spec list,probably.Have we missed something-Dave and David imply there isn't a gereat need for all your specs-researching "why a mildot ret and moa turrets' (on google), establishes the obvious-consistency is more logical and easier,though depending on use-and 'when in Rome....'/trade offs.

 

Maybe you could outline your reasons for eg FFP,or why a reticule with hatch marks (and just field check their drop,for fast use) and turret dial for 'precision' when time allows. Bearing in mind,125y is starting to look at the far end of the 22rf 'precision' range (1.5inches say).

Side focus is fairly obviously an advantage,and 'size'...well,yes but extras tend to add to that.

Maybe the market will oblige,but I would not hold my breath for a March anytime soon under £300-which is a lot in casual rf terms.

Just interested in your rationale-this whole topic is both 'objective'and subjective,and we can all learn.

(I have several NF high mag consistent scopes,some leupolds that are not,and any amount of rf/224 class SFP that are consistent (inch or moa)....I'd not recommended switching between them,but I don't have any problems-certainly not for range shooting,and I am reasonably secure converting mil to moa-write it down if challenged,..it hardly matters-I can't spot fall of shot at distance to .1 of a mil or inch. Ranging is done by a laser - though if you can manage "distance(yards)=target(inches)/ mils X27.78 ", in FFP,you can probably squeak by using "1mil=3.4 inches",near enough for field use,in a mixed set up.

Whatever....easy and accurate are good. If someone makes it!

gbal

[David Hancock]

Sorry SNC for my generic suggestion. I thought shooting a .22LR - whatever type you have and ammunition you prefer - was supposed to be fun !

[FGYT]

you can tape and re mark a MOA click turret to Mils

 

Mil dot I think has to wide a spacing for much use on a 22LR especially for Subs at such low mag ( or even in FFP)

 

 

 

 

Im looking for a similar scope for my 22LR Semi and would love a 3-18 zoom range but only 3 expensive versions in UK ad BSA USA do a cheap one not over here

 

Hawke SR Pro reticle gives a good number of us full Hold over marks especially in the 10-16 zoom range (SFP) available in 3-12 x 50 and 4-16 x 50 But a fairly large Scope (not as bad s the hight mag ones)

[snc_2010]

I'm fairly prescriptive on what I want because it needs to do all the usual rabbiting and tin cans but also needs to dial and measure and adjust for more distant targets. I know what I want. I just don't know if it's available.

 

Of course one can compromise but if I'm going to spend money I'd prefer to spend it on the right thing. Taping and labelling MOA turrets is the back up to the back up.

[gunner]

Having researched this very topic a great deal, I am pretty confident that the only FFP mil/mil scope under £300 available in the UK are those sold by Falcon Optics. In the US, it is a different matter, with budget options from BSA, Weaver, SWFA and Primary Arms. But good luck finding a seller willing to ship one of these to the UK through ITAR.

 

There are one or two options at 10x, particularly the Bushnell Elite 3200, model 321040T, but I have never seen one for sale in the UK, only the 1/4 MOA version. And it seems that you have already discounted 10x as an option.

Hi guys , shuggie im glad youv mentioned this bushnell , i have one , bought new , used 3 times on my annie hmr , took it off and put on a then spare vx111 , been in gun room ever since , got box manual etc . Its for sale if anyone interested . Bought from those a$$holes at exeter ! PS its moa btw.

[stillair1]

I have a 7.5 x50 menace ( mildot, 1/4 moa knobs s/f) sitting idle. Nice condition apart from one spec of dust on an inner lens.

[Brummy Mark]

Please please dont take my thoughts the wrong way: I cant understand why you want, what you want, for a 22 rimfire.

 

Why dont you just buy a fixed power scope and learn/measure your drops and learn the reticle, hunters have been doing this for years, and I would put money on the guy who knows his drops and reticle to hit any target at any sensible distance for calibre faster and more accurately than the man who want to measure and adjust for misses with an air rifle or 22rf.

 

I had a 6x fixed paralax with bdc reticle on 22 air pcp, 22 hw80 and on 22rf, I would happily put my £20 on the table to shoot at hunting ranges and at extended ranges for calibre and be quick and accurate - because I knew my drops and reticle,

1st and 2nd places at quiet a few hft comps, last one was a 2nd place at Chatsworth shoot, air rifle at unknown ranges.

 

So final comment, still cant see why you want what you want when its not realy needed in pratical terms.

[Big Al]

I can understand why the OP want to do things his own way but he still hasn't really explained why he needs the spec exactly as he describes. I would think using a rangefinder would be much faster than trying to range using mill dots?

 

Ive been using a rangefinder recently along with having the turrets marked from 50-110yds, it has been a very fast and accurate way of head shooting with only the wind to allow for, Ive done this with both a Fox scope costing £120 and a Vortex costing more.

[snc_2010]

I can do holdover and drops at rabbit ranges. I wouldn't usually dial for that. I want to dial for targets. I'm out to 200m at the mo.

 

I'm not especially interested in using a ret to range.

 

You can mark turrets on any scope as a workaround but I will still do so on an ideal mil/mil FFP. That way you can dial a known range quickly and also be able to measure and adjust in the same unit.

[Shuggy]

Once I fully understood the value of an FFP mil/mil scope, I won't be satisfied again with the market norm of SFP with MOA turrets and a mil reticle.

 

An FFP mil/mil for a rimfire makes just as much sense as one for fullbore. I too would quite fancy an affordable FFP scope on a rimfire trainer, to match my Schmidt and Bender 5-25. But as you have found, there are very few options.

[gbal]

Several posters have asked for the rationale for the scope specs in the OP-we are making some slight progress. I don't get the impression of criticism,and for myself am simply very interested in the topic,not least because I have lots of scopes for different uses,and maybe have missed the advantages of FFP in particular. It's still not clear,though.

We can immediately repeat agreement that using the same unit for reticule,turrets (both) is 'logical'-whether it be inch,moa,mil,or any other seems to make no difference.There really is no decent case at all for mixing two different measureing systems. Take that as agreed,no need to repeat. Which system might be slightly more complex-not in the scope use per se,nor even in minor possible precision issues in the clicks etc,but in easy communication with other like minded-and equipped-shooters (most target shooters use moa,mil is near standard in the military,and predominant in eg 'precision shooting' (gongs at various ranges,from various positions).

OK,ranging is far and away-in all senses!- best done by a laser rangefinder. Any reicule based system is dependent on some knowledge which is not either available or accurate-specifically 'target size'-in extremis,the FFP would have an advantage IF the preconditions are met,but the advantage lies in being useable to range at any magnification....well,in ecxtremis,it's no great additional hardship to turn the SFP magnification to the single calibrated value to allow ranging of known size targes-I can see that it would be advantageous in fast precision shooting not to have to check magnification first (but only if you know the target size-to me,if that is given,you might a well be given the range,but that is a detail of competition rules,and could be a significant advantage for FFP.

FFP has the disadvantage of less precise aiming at distance on small targets,because of reticule size obscuring more of the target.This wll be a very minor issue for shooters using targets of a size large enough to 'range' with FFP reticule (as above,'precision' shooting). It is however a consideration that steers most long range target shooters to SFP-with potentially slightly more precise turret markings and finer aim ,precision is enhanced -and there seems no advantage for such shootes from FFP to compensate.

Hunters could go either way-though SFP seems to predominate in that market,esp outside continental Europe-though Europe has excellent glass.

I don't really get the 'measure' better point-measure what? If it's fall of shot,both systems are snookered by any inability to see such fall of shot;when it is visible,there may be a FFP advantage in readily converting mils on reticule to mils correction on turret(or oa or indeed any consistent system) though it's going to be less than very precise,so any scope with hatching on the reticule can manage it,except for very small targets perhaps-when both FFP/SFP are less than optimal. (splash 2 down,aim two up...seems to do it,irrespective of units)..

 

Now,lest this go on,how does rf shooting fit in ? -though I wish someone would Explain the FFP advantages instead of one worders,repeating such as "you can range with it" (not very well,get a laser) or simply describing "the ret and target stay in the same relationship"-yeah,got that,but for some purposes it's not the best relationship-you want the advantage of your high mag to precisely locate the appropriately sized aiming mark on target,and SFP does that better) .

I have no doubt that a S&B top of the range FFP can be a more satisfying scope -even for 75 y bunnies-than a cheapo sfp,but that's a quality issue-not a 'design spec issue'-it would do in SFP too.

We seem to have excluded ranging-and that any system can adequately handle field fire determined click adjusts for distance.

 

" I want to dial for targets,out to 200y so far"....and ranging by scope isn't wanted (just as well!),and real range firing of drops seems to be sensibly accepted as the only way to go,so how does FFP rather than SFP,and/or mil (rather than moa) have an advantage?

GIven the preferences of target shooters,you might be tempted to suggest the opposite,but given the considerable dispersion of rf ammo at 200+,I wouldn't see much in it from the scope specs-problem is more likely that ammo has lost precision by 200y,unless targets are large....

 

Sorry to spell it out,but these one phrase 'I know its better' don't help us uninitiated to upgrade our equipment.It would be easy to one word reply critically,if there were no serious interest...but no-one is doing that. Having already invested £ks in scopes,I'd like to hear the informed case for something different,in this context,for rf shooting,as well might most other posters on this topic. Please.

 

gbal

[snc_2010]

No problem, gbal.

 

Why FFP? It's idiot proof. With a SFP scope you can forget to wind to the calibrated mag.

The ret thickness is not a problem. The main crosshairs on a Schmidt P3 are 7cm thick at 1000m. Hardly imprecise!

 

Why mil as opposed to MOA? Far easier maths because everything is in tens. Also, bog standard mildots (e.g. Schmidt P3) are ubiquitous. If I look at a mildot, I know it's a mildot and I know each dot is 1 mil (there's even a clue in the name). If I look at a ret with hashmarks, it could be MOA or mil and the hashmarks could mean anything. I've then got to look at the marks and remember what they mean etc. The only exception to this is if the hashmarks have numbers next to them but then you've got extra crap on the ret. Bog standard mildots are great.

 

Measuring is using the ret to measure the difference between where you were aiming (POA) and where the bullet hit (POI). It could be that you can see the strike in grass or sand, can see the mark in a target (paper, steel etc) or are having a target marked back with spotting discs. Once you measure, you know you've missed by say 2 mils, you can either hold 2 mils or dial 2 mils. No mag winding, no thinking.

 

I agree with Shuggy's post. It's the same for any rifle. Probably other projectile weapons too.

 

 

Conclusion: FFP (or fixed mag), mil knobs and a mildot are just a great combo.You have to try VERY hard to get it wrong. But change any one of those three things and you've just given yourself loads more room for error.

 

 

Hope that helps. Sorry if I missed anything out. Feel free to ask again if I did.