Ideas - a bolt action 6.5x47 that points like an AR?

[The Gun Pimp]

Just been reading the latest online version of the American NRA journal. There it is - the Ruger Scout - 16.5 inch barrel, mag.fed, 6.25lbs less scope but with Pic rail.

 

Now normally, I would'nt use one to prop open the door but it's about the closest we've come - chamber that in 6.5x47, fit a modest scope and it should still come in around 8lbs.

[gbal]

Vince,as has been said,this is just the latest incarnation of the Cooper scout (survival) rifle,and several before.Some were lighter.I had a 1960s Rem Mohawk about 7lb,39 inches.Good carry rifle(no doubt could be made to take bottom metal etc)-and all three had full length stocks,which were not factory options in Rem 600,and 6.5x47 hadn't been invented,but 260 would be an easy barrel job if essential.

The Parker Hale scout was cheaper(308 as is typical/Cooper spec)-had det mag,kick,'precision at 600'??-not for the last mag shots....

Firing them will of course be a different sensation to an AR,but survival should be OK.

I think there are a few RUgers among members on here.The interesting question is can this be got below 5+ lb,and why would you want to? (serious mountain game expeditions excepted-a lot of hard carry,and one shot)

 

Folding stocks are 'just like AR"-maybe-but really a bit err,Offrail Gary :-)

To be fair, most any rifle could have a folder,but it is an interesting maybe for useability/portability.

My engineering neighbour suggested a lever action,with large capacity box mag fitted....do I hear"not an AR".. ok,agreed. But some are nice handling and pointing carbines! No need for Savage criticism. :-)

 

Ok time for some cricket,or tennis as they call it in France...well,it's pretty much the same...bat,balls,umpires,brings on showers.... :-)

 

gbal

[Laurie]

Probably the best interpretation of the Jeff Cooper 'scout rifle' was the Steyr Scout introduced around 1998 and very close to Cooper's vision. I'm not at all sure though that the Cooper scout rifle is what BD is seeking as it was meant for very specific American style useage, a general-purpose hunting, home-defence, and civilian militia concept rifle that uses a forward mounted low-magnification LER pistol type scope, but is equally at home with iron sights. I don't think competition use came into the concept.

 

Introduced in 223, 243 and 308, strangely Steyr and Hornady developed the .376 Steyr expressly for this rifle, a muscular large bore that must have been extremely unpleasant in a 3Kg weight rifle. If I remember right, all chamberings other than 376 later disappeared thus departing from the Cooper concept of a light rifle firing cartridges with manageable recoil and easily / widely available in times of crisis such as some post apocalypse Mad Max world.

 

I suspect that American survivalists living in their mountain cabins, living off what they shoot in the woods and grow in the backyard, preparing to repel 'The Feds' should a Waco style operation be mounted against them are tooled up with AR-15s, Ruger Mini-14s, M1As, FALs, AR-10s rather than Steyr Scouts.

[bradders]

Vince,as has been said,this is just the latest incarnation of the Cooper scout (survival) rifle,and several before.Some were lighter.I had a 1960s Rem Mohawk about 7lb,39 inches.Good carry rifle(no doubt could be made to take bottom metal etc)-and all three had full length stocks,which were not factory options in Rem 600,and 6.5x47 hadn't been invented,but 260 would be an easy barrel job if essential.

The Parker Hale scout was cheaper(308 as is typical/Cooper spec)-had det mag,kick,'precision at 600'??-not for the last mag shots....

Firing them will of course be a different sensation to an AR,but survival should be OK.

I think there are a few RUgers among members on here.The interesting question is can this be got below 5+ lb,and why would you want to? (serious mountain game expeditions excepted-a lot of hard carry,and one shot)

Folding stocks are 'just like AR"-maybe-but really a bit err,Offrail Gary :-)

To be fair, most any rifle could have a folder,but it is an interesting maybe for useability/portability.

My engineering neighbour suggested a lever action,with large capacity box mag fitted....do I hear"not an AR".. ok,agreed. But some are nice handling and pointing carbines! No need for Savage criticism. :-)

Ok time for some cricket,or tennis as they call it in France...well,it's pretty much the same...bat,balls,umpires,brings on showers.... :-)

gbal

I don't know of many AR 15's that have folding stocks

It's a bit difficult with a fixed buffer tube!

[gbal]

I don't know of many AR 15's that have folding stocks

It's a bit difficult with a fixed buffer tube!

Mark,touche! Of course when I said "AR like"it was in the same senses as most of the suggestions- ie substantially different,in fact and spirit from an actual AR. I note the 7 lb AR15 that become 9lb,(before dimples?-) -which kind of narrows the gap on one criterion. Even so,the AR remains unique,for better or worse-and in part I assume from the buffer/recoil characteristics.**

I did want to give the idea a little credit (not much- 6lb repeater boar guns could be fitted into 55ish cm cases-but you'd have to be a bit nippy to assemble them when the boar appears.)

 

** Though the Grendel and CG66 remain unanswered,-the former falls someway short of 6.5x47 performance,the CG does not,,and both address all the criteria - so they are presumably eliminated.Custom AK then. :-)

 

g

[Chris-NZ]

Thanks,Chris.......

What does your rig weigh,since weight is (one?) of the criteria?..

g

 

 

All-up weight incl suppressor is 7lbs 9oz George.

 

I've shot my US buddy's ARs quite a bit including off hand, and I know a rifle can be too light to shoot accurately. Actually, I was over there a couple of months ago and we built one up from parts in an afternoon. The price of components has really come back down over there from the post-panic heights.

[bradders]

All-up weight incl suppressor is 7lbs 9oz George.

 

I've shot my US buddy's ARs quite a bit including off hand, and I know a rifle can be too light to shoot accurately. Actually, I was over there a couple of months ago and we built one up from parts in an afternoon. The price of components has really come back down over there from the post-panic heights.

That's the reason why US National Match AR Service Rifles usually weigh upwards of 12lbs, and are normally nearer to 16-17lbs

[gbal]

Thanks,Chris...I agree,but each finds their comfort zone,bearing in mind use. For offhand shooting,I don't get any benefit from much beyond 9lb or so,if especially if it's several shots. I can't imagine a hunting rifle being carried at 15 lb-well,it is done,but can't see why,and not by me-each to his own,of course,and horses for courses-or more precisely,as the great Warren Page noted "It's differences of opinion that make for horse races" **

 

Mark,likewise-especially once there are slings and three position etc, and more recoil,some more weight is tolerable/advantageous.

I doubt if all the east states US deermen are going to ditch their carbines (inc ARs) for something heavier-they have largely resisted since....1894? or therabouts...ponies for courses!

g

 

** Gary,all this faffing about was, of course,before the Blaser reduced it all to a one horse race. :-)

[Chris-NZ]

(duplicate)

[Chris-NZ]

That's the reason why US National Match AR Service Rifles usually weigh upwards of 12lbs, and are normally nearer to 16-17lbs

 

I can believe that as my buddy's two Rock Rivers sure ain't light (but man they're accurate) unlike the throw-together utility grade ARs. Having said that, the cheapies are still acceptably accurate- the one we tossed together was near MOA with the first ammo he grabbed off the shelf!

[ChrisF]

Sounds like you want THIS , Eberlestock m11 folder stock , and use a GAP Tempest action , BOTH are un-obtainable , running AW 10rd mags Why not .

[gbal]

Sounds like you want THIS , Eberlestock m11 folder stock , and use a GAP Tempest action , BOTH are un-obtainable , running AW 10rd mags Why not .

$1800 ? that's the minimalist meccano stock only. OR:

 

Eberlestock M11 Stealth aluminum chassis,folder,AI mag,as above in a Defiance action 6.5 Creedmore,with weight saving carbon fibre weight saving barrel (or Bartlein for the conservative),and all this for $5000 plus. Hopefully unobtainable here.

 

It's all a bit inconsistent- bore a few holes in the aluminum to 'save weight' then fit a 10 shot magazine....? Why-ten shots on a lightweight stalking rifle?

 

Still,so long as we have choice....and can get five fit for purpose conventional rifles for the same price (though you'd only need one proper one.)

 

gbal

[tackb]

$1800 ? that's the minimalist meccano stock only. OR:

 

Eberlestock M11 Stealth aluminum chassis,folder,AI mag,as above in a Defiance action 6.5 Creedmore,with weight saving carbon fibre weight saving barrel (or Bartlein for the conservative),and all this for $5000 plus. Hopefully unobtainable here.

 

It's all a bit inconsistent- bore a few holes in the aluminum to 'save weight' then fit a 10 shot magazine....? Why-ten shots on a lightweight stalking rifle?

 

Still,so long as we have choice....and can get five fit for purpose conventional rifles for the same price (though you'd only need one proper one.)

 

gbal

 

I might be wrong but BD never mentioned stalking?

[gbal]

I might be wrong but BD never mentioned stalking?

Agreed-no use was indicated. The discussion has strayed a bit off course,even allowing for the initial somewhat flexible/imprecisebrief.

I was just commenting on the somewhat inconsistent (to me anyhow) design features on the Eberlestock....though I don't know what it's uses are intended to be.($1800 for stock does need some!)

 

The more general point is that having only one of the original somewhat imprecise criteria isn't enough to be a contender for BD's ensemble of desiderata.("imprecise"- just what contributes to how an AR15 points?-pistol grip,weight balance...?? etc-I suspect the whole design,so essentially not replicable without that,but we've been around this block already.

If the 'handling' somehow means 'have to have more than 5 shots' then a (detachable) magazine will be needed (of course,ten shots might deviate from AR15 too)......it's your $5000,it's not on my list -as said,choice,but much seems individual's 'boat float',rather than addressing the original brief (which wasn't stalking-use was not indicated at all,though 'pointing' does not suggest bench rest standards for 'shoots precisely',so maybe 'unsupported'(no rest/bipod etc) ..perhaps ....but then 'precisely at 600y' won't be anything like "Diggle Egg at 500y" precision....and others have commented on the weight/controllability/accuracy issues....which a 6.5 cartridge brings in too...more AR10,which didn't sell well....go figure... :-)

 

Not that much is new-in the light accurate carbine search,OR slightly inconsistent thinking--Craig Boddington had an ultra light (4lb?) skeletal magnum long range carry 'mountain rifle' ,but admitted that such a need was mostly myth-generally shots would be possible at 'stalking' ranges....(but why not indulge yourself/write your own script?Having to answer someone else's question is a bit more demanding,often.

 

gbal

[tackb]

Agreed-no use was indicated. The discussion has strayed a bit of course,even allowing for the initial somewhat flexible brief.

I was just commenting on the somewhat inconsistent (to me anyhow) design features on the Eberlestock....

The more general point is that having one of the original somewhat imprecise criteria isn't enough to be a contender for BD's ensemble of desiderata.("imprecise"- pistol grip? or....??- just what contributes to how an AR15 points?)-I suspect the whole design,so essentially not replicable without that,but we've been around this block already.

If the 'handling' somehow means 'have to have more than 5 shots' then a (detachable) magazine will be needed (of course,ten shots might deviate from AR15 too)......it's your $5000,it's not on my list -as said,choice,but much seems 'boat float',rather than addressing the original brief (which wasn't stalking-use was not indicated at all,though 'pointing' does not suggest bench rest standards for 'shoots precisely',so maybe 'unsupported'(no rest/bipod etc) ..perhaps ....but then 'precisely at 600y' won't be "Diggle Egg at 500y" precision....go figure... :-)

 

Not that much is new-including blurred lines-Craig Boddington had an ultra light (4lb?) skeletal magnum long range carry 'mountain rifle' ,but admitted that such need was mostly myth-generally shots would be possible at 'stalking' ranges....(but why not?).

 

gbal

 

what?

[Offroad Gary]

what?

He said sell Gary your spare stock you tight git!

[tackb]

He said sell Gary your spare stock you tight git!

 

ok , £2000 with a free march scope...........

[Offroad Gary]

Im offloading 2 quality scopes today, dont need another. Thanks anyway mate

[LukeSoutherner]

There are literally hundreds of these T3 "Bush Pigs" being used in NZ. Mine pictured is a 7-08 with the barrel shortened to 16" and wears a Gen4 Hardy can. Very fast handling and the length suits the heavy bush here, very light to carry too. You can drive a 120TTSX at 2950 with H335 and they sure kill. Penetration has to be seen to be believed - I've only recovered two out of the last ~20 deer. It now wears a 2.5-8 VX-III instead of the 30mm Euro pictured, even lighter.

 

Really like the look of this, an while maybe not what Brown Dog was after, I think these sorts of rifles (whatever they are?!?) look great and handle much better than long barrelled rifles when it comes to hunting. I had my AI AE .308 cut down to 16", and it is still heavy but the balance is much better. Still looking for a good lightweight scope for it though as my 6x42 comes in at a massive 450grams!

[gbal]

Luke,indeed there ar advantages to the short (carbine?) design- if in woodland,having a short barrel that didn't catch on branchES above your head was a real boon (Daniel Boone didn't have the option,ballistically!) A metre long is a good guide-whole rifle.

When hunters really did work hard,world wide and Scottish hills,the little M/S carbine was often the choice,thoughout the 19th century. The concept continued in mass produced rifles-Rem 7 is a short 700,and many others-including some classy european rifles-where some hard going is typical. The lightened,shortened 'carbine' was the essential lever action advantage too,and more recent fashions have produced Cooper's Scout rifle-as a functional more tactical variant...Ruger make one,eg.

But lightness isn't easy....nor always desireable at any cost- you are right about handling,though that is a personal preference-muzzle blast gets obtrusive on the range,but these were never target rifles.

Anyhow,Chris' NZ example shows the concept is alive and well-most rifles can be 'converted' and kitted out accordingly,and still fill niche applications very well. Some will never be great choices though-don't even think short Barret 50 cal carry carbine! (DTA?)

Enjoy... interesting to see AI add some flexibility....a rifle should be a pleasure to its owner,none else matters (much). :-)

 

ggbal

[ds1]

or as I noticed at the plod comp the Germans (SEK) just go the gym more......dragging my DTA around for 4 days was fine with just a scope coat but the Germans did the same with AI`s plus accessories all in steel transit cases which are bloody heavy and not well balanced and carrying rucksacks bigger than me......... god knows why they had the transit cases.

[FGYT]

Just putting together my first Gun its

 

6.5x47 R700 action with a 16.5" #4 sporter barrel 4.3lbs

will go in an MDT HS3 chassis 2lbs (LSS is 1.6lbs)

and have a magpul Colapsible buttstock 0.53lbs

Buffer tube 0.3lbs

Grip 0.35lbs

 

7.5lbs ish (3.4kg)

 

 

 

 

plus a reflex moderator

plus scope etc

 

how far it shoots well We will see

 

 

Edit Gtt the action weight now

[brown dog]

Sadly, not mine, but had hands on this earlier in the week. I think it may achieve the aim:

 

[FGYT]

Got my stock set up too minus the right grip cant find one in UK (Ergo Tactical Deluxe flat top in FDE) so a std A2 hard plastic grip till i find one

 

tho i see the one above has one in black

 

Just waiting on the proof house now

 

 

[brown dog]

Got my stock set up too minus the right grip cant find one in UK (Ergo Tactical Deluxe flat top in FDE) so a std A2 hard plastic grip till i find one

 

tho i see the one above has one in black

 

Just waiting on the proof house now

 

 

 

Very nice - sadly for me, that seems to be the only MDT model that the isn't available l/h!