Ideas - a bolt action 6.5x47 that points like an AR?

[brown dog]

Given that BD has already done the DTA and Blaser rifles to the point of establishing an horizontal learning curve

 

the sad truth!

 

Whats the typical weight of a "lightweight" chassis system?

 

I broke my stiller sentinel down yesterday to weight the bits and was surprised where the weight was!

 

Where was it? Be interested in hearing the weight break down:

I remember having an AWP apart, I was ready for the 'naked' stock to feel like picking up a bag of bricks, but was actually stunned by the weight of the barrel and action.

 

Years back, I put a tikka T3 lite into a Manners T4, it was the most deliciously pointy little rifle whilst it still had its 'lite' barrel on. Once it had its big 6.5x47 barrel put on it, it went back to feeling like most other front heavy and essentially prone-only rifles.

[brown dog]

We've had some great discussions regarding the AR bolt-gun but let's keep weight at the forefront.

 

It is possible to build an accurate rifle weighing 10.5lbs all-up - there are thousands of 6PPC Light Varmint rifles out there (using barrels that weigh 5lbs!).

 

We can all build 14lb lumps like 'walkabouts' but we want a rifle weighing less than 10lbs!

 

I'd guess the only shaveable weight in Mark's would be in barrel length and profile (and, to a lesser extent, choice of action)?

Anyone have any fag packet maths that would roughly indicate a possible weight saving by going from 18" heavy palma to 16" Light palma ...or even 16" sporter?

[Offroad Gary]

26" medium/heavy palma stiller tac30aw in sentinel stock wearing 8-32nxs and jetz. 16lbs 9oz empty inc atlas

 

Barrel, action, nxs, mounts 8lb 12oz

Stock, atlas 5lb 2oz

Empty aw mag and kmw bottom metal 12oz

Bolt 10oz

Jetz 1lb 5 oz

 

 

Scope weighs 2lb 2oz

Barrel action and bolt weigh 7lb 4oz

[gbal]

Mostly,this has been an interesting discussion,of an ambitious set of desiderata.

Vince's point is germane-weight seems to have been a little overlooked-not to say blatantly ignored by some.But there are at least three co-varying criteria in Matt's original 'dream' concept:lets just repeat,to help focus:

"A 6.5x47 bolt rifle approximating the balance,weight and pointability of the AR(15) carbine,that shoots precisely at 600m"

 

OK,some of these are a little subjective,but we can get the design concept (perhaps it would also be a bonus if some of the functionality and ergonomics of the AR platform were included?)

I imagine that there might be some flexibility about cartridge (260 eg),especially as Government Work is presumably not envisaged in any UK legal design.Going to be tough,and if the AR carbine as is weighs in at 6-7 lb,and Bradders will know,it's certainly gave me pause to think-I don't have any firing experience with AR15s,but do have a little with various carbine design rifles. 7lb seems ambitious indeed,not for a potent carbine-4lb isn't impossible-(Savage model116.5 creedmore light hunter was 5.5lb)f it has the other attributes in the "dream spec".BUt weight is a tough one.But let's summarise and see ,so far-sort of in ascending likely order (AR 15 apart-it is an AR!)

 

AR 15 platform with alternate cartridge,like Grendel

AR10

DPMS & FULTON ARMORY LR

DTA

TUBB TK2

ELISEO tube gun

CG66 Light Tube Repeater

 

OK- it's sort of clear that attempts have been made to get a functional clone,if not copy,of the AR15,following the latter's widespread popularity,and considerable successes.

In what follows,assume serious attempts to reduce weight have been made,or could be-short barrel etc-I won't repeat every time-but comment where not done.

 

The simplest way (for Matt's concept) is simply change to an acceptable cartridge.

AR15 in Grendel is a starter-it matters not that it may be a bit under max in a man op,if it is still 'good enough'-its no 6.5x47 though-if compromise is acceptable,however,it has been produced in AR platform.

 

AR10/based: all are to date way too heavy,and seem to lack the 'pointability' etc-unlikely start.

 

DTA: still too heavy,ergonomics differ,and handling seems unlikely to be close to AR.

 

TUBB 2K2-here it starts to get interesting-Tubb has the competition shooting expertise,with the Knight/Stoner SR 25. Ultimately he found it lacking,despite some AR features-of course.The design flip is to accept that the gas operated rifle has limitations,for his discipline(XTC-three positional,fast,slow,and three distances,1,3,500) at the highest level.Note these matter-Tubb is developing the ultimate XTC rifle,not a super carbine-but important features emerge-he has detailed all this-Accurate Shooter-essentially its stability,durability(he means consistency of shooting position) and comfort (pain isn't a gain!),with rate of fire comparable to gas,with a bolt for accuracy,but smooth minimal movement.Note weight reductionis not critical,indeed minimal would be disadvantageous maybe-and some reduction fot Matt's dream would be achievable-a much lighter stock eg-no need for unlimited adjustment-hardly a feature of the AR15 carbine! All geard then-with great success-to the needs of a top XTC type shooter-but that is specialised-one finger bolt we can certainly note,though (and might bring in the VERY fast accurate fire Scandinavian Tangskyting bolt technique with a 'standard' mag/bolt Sauer 2000.

Well, Tubb T2K is not perfect,and more to the point,not available-even at it's considerable cost (Macmillan clone ditto). Bit of an impasse there,then!

 

Eliseo (Competition Machine) has similarities in concept-very slick standard (eg Rem700) bolt in a round tube (gun)-see Accurate Shooter for the story-again ,design is not primarily a carbine,but much could be used...and like Tubb,pistol grip,round forend,easy operation might be acceptable on " feel and handling" and most any cartridge is possible. In "configuring the Elisio" German Salazaar comments that "Like Goldilocks in the three bears house,we tried everything to get it just right,and even feel like an AR carbine"-but not 7 lbs,so as Alice in Wonderland said " Well that's just not the same thing at all then,is it"

 

CG66 light repeater-hmmm,Robert Chombart has had some good ideas,and with German Salazar input,maybe we can expect something good-"Light" also suggests Matt's use (assumed),rather than a competition machine exclusively..it's even swap barrel with 6.5x47 option....tubular benefits,pistol grip,good ergonomics (some specs on Accurate Shooter-though UK Shooting Shed,for some reason there isn't much about this contender-good contender- easily available...but weight is around 6lb depending on configuraton,without barrel though....it isn't bargain basement,of course...

 

OK,is that 5 shots or six....as Bradders has said,there is only one AR15,and it does not come in anything like 6.5x47 Lapua.

 

Depending on your sensitivities (don't even mention muzzle blast from a minimum legal light barrel),and interpretation of Matt's desiderata,there are som options-not all viable though,and comparable weight is a real tough one....so far (remember we need the whole package-I have a 6lb carbine in 6.5,which handles sublimely,but I'm glad to say it is about as far from an AR as any Government Issue rifle can get.Once upon a time,the greeks had money! But I have a Variation too for AR15 (understood no bipod-works far better with a tripod,Mark). So I could easily get by with a 223 AR15 carbine to 600m-just about-or even 6x45/47 to make life awkward.Another story though.

 

At least colo(u)r doesn't have to be black,but we are a fair ways,as yet,from aesthetic/artistic decisions.

Weight and watch this space!!

 

gbal

 

The Accurate Shooter articles have fine-though sometimes important detail-esp wrt 'comparable to AR 'feel",worth a look-but weight/calibre are the challenges first.Bear in mind,most of the above are chasing competition success or a specific market,rather than pure research and development on Matt's dream machine,and that may be a serious consideration.....but nothing seems close to 7lb....except Bradder's ,

-and that's the non dimpled barrel!!

[Ronin]

39g Varget under a 180g Berger,,,,wonder how battered the brass is after one firing......

[brown dog]

I have a feeling that DW58's idea maybe the easiest route to approximating the weight goal.

The KRG stock is light: 3lb !! (in the brochure) this set up with a 16" light profile barrel.

 

 

[gbal]

Matt,most custom barrel makers have a calculator for barrel weight-you'd need some measures-diameter at chamber,muzzle-though of course you could just keep the same and vary length within a profile...

Just for fun,here's some contrasts:

31 inch,1" muzzle,F class shehane barrel only.....8lb9oz

 

223 carbine complete rifle 20 inch barrel .54" at muzzle.....6lb 3 oz

 

g

[terryh]

Matt,

 

OK quick calc.

 

Rem 700 SA action 2 lb 4oz

Whisky 3 3lb 2oz

barrel 3lb Medium palma cut to 20" as a quick down and dirty calc

Scope 1lb 10oz March 3-24 x 52 (if you use your S&B 5-25 add s about 6oz of top weight

 

Totals 10lb 2 oz but need to add mag and rings etc so well sub 11lb without trying unless you go S&B

 

T

[Shuggy]

KRG X-Ray is 3 lb 2 oz; XLR Element is 3 lb 6 oz; MDT LSS is probably about the same once you add all the bits. The only thing out there that might be lighter would be a PSE ETAC.

 

The key other thing would be to choose an appropriate barrel profile. I would also choose a 2.5-10x32 scope. You dont really need lots of magnification for 600m.

[bradders]

Matt,

 

OK quick calc.

 

Rem 700 SA action 2 lb 4oz

Whisky 3 3lb 2oz

barrel 3lb Medium palma cut to 20" as a quick down and dirty calc

Scope 1lb 10oz March 3-24 x 52 (if you use your S&B 5-25 add s about 6oz of top weight

 

Totals 10lb 2 oz but need to add mag and rings etc so well sub 11lb without trying unless you go S&B

 

T

A Colt 6920 16" Carbine weights 6.9lbs with an empty mag and is 35.5" OAL

[Shuggy]

A Colt 6920 16" Carbine weights 6.9lbs with an empty mag and is 35.5" OAL

Given that the requirement is for a 6.5x47, a fairer comparison might be with an AR10 carbine at ~ 8lbs. But there's no denying that an AR15 is an amazingly handy thing and really was a revolutionary design.

[brown dog]

A Colt 6920 16" Carbine weights 6.9lbs with an empty mag and is 35.5" OAL

 

A T3 lite is lighter with a 6" longer barrel!

 

We'll get close-ish.

 

For a more realsitic comparison, what sort of weight is one of your carbine barrelled BARs once it has a CTR stock, samson forend etc? and an optic and mount?

[bradders]

 

A T3 lite is lighter with a 6" longer barrel!

 

We'll get close-ish.

 

For a more realsitic comparison, what sort of weight is one of your carbine barrelled BARs once it has a CTR stock, samson forend etc? and an optic and mount?

with a 18" med weight barrel, Samson, UBR (heavy) and Vortex 1-4.....4.150kg

[brown dog]

withna 18" med weight barrel, Samson, UBR (heavy) and Vortex 1-4.....4.150kg

 

Thanks - that's only a pound away from Tel's fag packet maths, I think something at that sort of weight will be achievable.

[bradders]

 

Thanks - that's only a pound away from Tel's fag packet maths, I think something at that sort of weight will be achievable.

Not a carbine really though

[brown dog]

Not a carbine really though

 

Well, I'd call one of yours an M4 too; but I know that'd cross all sorts of M4-geek lines!

[bradders]

 

Well, I'd call one of yours an M4 too; but I know that'd cross all sorts of M4-geek lines!

Then you'd be wrong

[brown dog]

Then you'd be wrong

QED

[Offroad Gary]

Blaser anyone?

[bradders]

Blaser anyone?

Give it a rest Gary

[gbal]

But then we are heading towards "can a bolt action 6.5x47 rifle around ten pounds shoot 'precisely' at 600m,and I think we have enough data to be confident of a "yes" answer,though 'precisely' needs operationalising-yes ,1.5 groups have been shot,but no one hit the Diggle egg ,at 500y,so equipped,at least not on Monday past....even with a T3 lite...

Is there any point(ing) left,or are we conceeding to the Blaser claims? (et al,it should be added,T3 included). That is no comment on AR design,except that it seems no longer at all in the desiderata.

Light Varmint rifles in 6mm have shot under .25 for 5 shots at 300y-precise enough,even if not per se,long enough? As Vince said posts ago.

 

Is there a car as desireable,as a red Ferrari? Yes-a post office van-its red,and all the Post Office use. I would not say "Come back,Clarkson",but he was a whole lot better than that. :-)

g

[Chris-NZ]

There are literally hundreds of these T3 "Bush Pigs" being used in NZ. Mine pictured is a 7-08 with the barrel shortened to 16" and wears a Gen4 Hardy can. Very fast handling and the length suits the heavy bush here, very light to carry too. You can drive a 120TTSX at 2950 with H335 and they sure kill. Penetration has to be seen to be believed - I've only recovered two out of the last ~20 deer. It now wears a 2.5-8 VX-III instead of the 30mm Euro pictured, even lighter.

 

[gbal]

There are literally hundreds of these T3 "Bush Pigs" being used in NZ. Mine pictured is a 7-08 with the barrel shortened to 16" and wears a Gen4 Hardy can. Very fast handling and the length suits the heavy bush here, very light to carry too. You can drive a 120TTSX at 2950 with H335 and they sure kill. Penetration has to be seen to be believed - I've only recovered two out of the last ~20 deer. It now wears a 2.5-8 VX-III instead of the 30mm Euro pictured, even lighter.

 

Thanks,Chris.....there are lots of variations on this theme-started with the MS carbines in 1905-a great rifle.

What does your rig weigh,since weight is (one?) of the criteria?

I presume it "points" like an AR15-as do most rifles,ie down range,generally-though it gets harder to hold them there as weight increases-short barrel does help,of course.

And any other AR similarities could easily be in the imagination,if not actual.

No criticism at all of the concept-or the AR15- yours is my idea of a carbine bush rifle,and I've had at least four such (plus lever actions).

Just can't see it as an AR comparator in any meaningful sense,in a superior for purpose chambering; I know you're not saying it is!

I'll just have to fail most of the other candidates who attempted this question (well,a different question-hence the result!) :-)

g

[Offroad Gary]

[The Gun Pimp]

Just been reading the latest online version of the American NRA journal. There it is - the Ruger Scout - 16.5 inch barrel, mag.fed, 6.25lbs less scope but with Pic rail.

 

Now normally, I would'nt use one to prop open the door but it's about the closest we've come - chamber that in 6.5x47, fit a modest scope and it should still come in around 8lbs.