Scotch_egg Posted February 26, 2015 Report Share Posted February 26, 2015 That's just it, human error. It could happen and it would be negligence. I find the idea that one operation is easier than 2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbal Posted February 26, 2015 Report Share Posted February 26, 2015 MJR and Scotch: there is something in each of your points. But in virtually every 'accident' something that was not 'sense' was done,and two operations might/not be more difficult/prone to failure than one,depending on the complexity of the operation(s) and the degree of attention required. There can be-nor seems to be- no arguing that "no cartridge in the rifle is the safe(st) state." Seldom is this an inconvenience,in a non combat context, sufficient to justify not doing it. Any human can fail,and any mechanical device can fail,or fail to be correctly deployed,by the human. Whether 'Blaser' is more or less likely to be involved in an non intended discharge is a somewhat different discussion-no doubt it varies (since it's change of system for most,there might be a raised -if small- probability at first,likewise under stress etc etc.) But the conclusion cannot be other than a changed probability,not an absolute. No cartridge,no bang is absolute. The same kind of analysis shows that just carrying a shotgun 'broken open',though a great safety feature,but with cartridge(s) chambered is not completely safe-a fall could close the action and cause the trigger(s) to be pulled. Removing the cartridges means there will be no bang.That is why it should always be done. "All the pheasants ever bred,are not worth one man dead". I can see no reason not to extend to fox,deer. g Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Offroad Gary Posted February 26, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 26, 2015 Gents, anyway, with a Blaser, I can Drive with a loaded rifle (resting on the wing mirror) whilst feeling 100% confident that it cannot fire. Climb in and out of the vehicle without unloading whilst feeling 100% confident that it cannot fire. Climb fences in the dark without unloading whilst feeling 100% confident that it cannot fire. Climb in and out of highseats without unloading whilst feeling 100% confident that it cannot fire. Change the state of the rifle from “100% safe” to “ready” in absolute silence without spooking the quarry nearby. It is for these reasons, as well as the accuracy/handling qualities, that I have changed from a traditional bolt action, back to a Blaser. There were just too many missed opportunities when using traditional bolt actions in a “safe” manner. Trust you find this of use. Anyone not familiar with the system is welcome for a look if they’re interested. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJR Posted February 26, 2015 Report Share Posted February 26, 2015 Gary, good luck I wish you well. Personally I wouldn't do any of the things you've listed but each to their own. Yes human error can occur with anything in life but the point I was trying to make is exactly as Gbal described 'no cartridge, no bang is absolute'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbal Posted February 26, 2015 Report Share Posted February 26, 2015 +1 on MJR's summary. There is probably more risk of readers being bored to death by Blaser superlatives than shot by them. Blasers are probably less prone to mechanical safety failures,but their owners about equally as unlikely to forget to decock as are conventional users to forget to reset their safety. Garry,I am 110% sure that you probably don't understand percentages ( :-) ...but are a safe shot. Good and safe shooting to all. gbal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Offroad Gary Posted February 26, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 26, 2015 Gbal, you must learn to compare apples with apples. A cocked blaser is in the same safety state as a conventional bolt action with the safety off, but an uncocked blaser is a completely different (safe) animal to a bolt action with the safety applied. Im off to shoot some foxes (with a lamp and an almost perfect rifle)! N-joi What about an AI with a firing pin blocker? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rem700 Posted February 26, 2015 Report Share Posted February 26, 2015 nice rifle Gary . i shot a blaser for the 1st time last weekend i was impressed with how you can change bolts and internal mags and barrels for caliber changing , one minute i was shooting a 6.5x55 the next a 204 ruger will have to win the lotto to be able to have one in the cabinet tho Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbal Posted February 26, 2015 Report Share Posted February 26, 2015 Gbal, you must learn to compare apples with apples. A cocked blaser is in the same safety state as a conventional bolt action with the safety off, but an uncocked blaser is a completely different (safe) animal to a bolt action with the safety applied. Im off to shoot some foxes (with a lamp and an almost perfect rifle)! N-joi What about an AI with a firing pin blocker? Well,Gary-let's see what I said: "Blasers are probably less prone to mechanical safety failures"- which,I think,was meant to be,and is,entirely consistent with your "uncocked Blaser is a completely different(safe) animal to a bolt action with the safety applied"-my version may be less extreme,and I agree that is because I do not have any real knowledge of actual recalls/incidents with the Blaser,if any,but 'less prone to mechanical failure" is hardly a criticism of the Blaser. We are furthermore in complete agreement when you say that " a cocked Blaser is in the same safety state as a conventional bolt action with the safety off"...ie pulling the trigger fires the rifle. Where we diverge crucially,is that if the shooter of the Blaser and the conventional rifle make the same error-and without an error there usually isn't a safety issue,-that is,both forget to make their rifles 'safe'- both rifles remain in an exact state of potential accidental discharge. Exact,note.The Blaser shooter omits to decock, and the conventional shooter omits to reapply the safety catch-both actions that are very similar-and comparably simple. You seem to be singularly reluctant to take on board this point,not just made by me,that it is human failure that is the main concern.I can see no factors at all that suggest the Blaser system is more or less prone to lapses of this sort-both seem about equal-one simple movement of decocking/safety slide is forgotten by each shooter-it is a shooter failure. On this crucial point,your 'apples/apples' becomes ....err pear shaped. I have no immutable view of the sense of climbing over fences in the dark,and so on- it may be that ,with the Blaser decocked and the conventional rifle safety on,the Blaser is safer. But I am very clear that if this sort of activity takes place after a human failure to decock/reapply the safey,the risk is real,apparent and equal. Human failure is the issue-very few accidents are caused by mechanical failure of the rifle safety system alone-the overwhelming instances are where a safety system has not been deployed because of human error(often simply forgetting,as above.) Blasers may have many virtues,but they do not include a fail-safe overide of human error.The probability of an accidental discharge when the rifle's safety system is applied is thankfully vey small-it may even be zero for a Blaser (if so,removing the cartridges would have no effect-some will find that implausible,but let's accept it). But the chance is higher-I think equally high-for both systems when the shooter forgets to apply the system on the rifle. Apples to apples-if you will-is Blaser shooter forgets to decock,conventional rifle shooter forgets to reapply safety catch. so,are you still jumping out of trucks,or over fences in the dark-with either rifle,with 100% justified safety confidence? We agree again. ;-) gbal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Offroad Gary Posted February 26, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 26, 2015 Now that really hurt my head reading that lot! We agree, i think? My uncocked rifle is safe until i cock it then it is still safe because its in my hands. It only becomes unsafe when i forget that its cocked, or think that its uncocked when it isnt and it actually is. I hunted with my sako 75 the other night, and when i took it off my shoulder the safety was off, i'm sure i applied it before i started out?? Perhaps it came off during the numerous unloadings when climbing fences, or perhaps i never applied it. At least with the blaser it would have been safe from start to finish, unless it wasnt at some point. Now it all makes sense! Human error even applies to the master race.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toby Posted February 27, 2015 Report Share Posted February 27, 2015 Nice fox. If I had to start all over again it would be with a R93 Professional. However for my style of hunting the turnbolts that I use (Sako 75 & Rem 700) function perfectly. It also smarts that I would need to sell 2 or 3 rifles to buy a Blaser and that spare barrels over here cost the same as a Tikka T3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbal Posted February 27, 2015 Report Share Posted February 27, 2015 Now that really hurt my head reading that lot! We agree, i think? My uncocked rifle is safe until i cock it then it is still safe because its in my hands. It only becomes unsafe when i forget that its cocked, or think that its uncocked when it isnt and it actually is. I hunted with my sako 75 the other night, and when i took it off my shoulder the safety was off, i'm sure i applied it before i started out?? Perhaps it came off during the numerous unloadings when climbing fences, or perhaps i never applied it. At least with the blaser it would have been safe from start to finish, unless it wasnt at some point. Now it all makes sense! Human error even applies to the master race.. Well,Garry nearly there. Your Blaser rifle is safe (it can't fire) until it is cocked. It is less safe when it is cocked (it can fire,unintentionally). The least safe condition is when the rifle is left cocked but the shooter falsely thinks it he has uncocked it. The same is true of the Sako etc .The Blaser may well have a superior safe system,when uncocked-but when cocked is exactly like other rifles with the safety off. Your Sako experience seems to make this point very clearly-human error,which could have happened with the Blaser too.Apples to apples,indeed-you can't say you might make an error reapplying the safety in the Sako,but you just would not make the same effective error in forgetting to decock the Blaser. The 'master race' had a very clever code system-Enigma-but it was broken by Turing's team,because the human,but careless use of the system allowed human 'error',and that is detectable. Now decoding is not decocking,but the Germans were 100% sure Enigma could not be cracked,and that ill placed confidence rather shot them in the foot,or miscellaneously. Vorsprung durch technik is often admirable,but no guarantee against human error. 'wiedersehen (hopefully not in the dark,jumping fences) :-) g Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Offroad Gary Posted February 27, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 27, 2015 Ha ha. The sako has a little button which lets you unload without removing the safety, which i always use, hence proving that it wasnt me that took off the safety, it was the fairies! Only thing left to deal with now is brown dogs little quip about the mythical blaser misfire... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tackb Posted February 27, 2015 Report Share Posted February 27, 2015 is this a bad time to bring up having your face blown off by a blaser? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wsm Posted February 28, 2015 Report Share Posted February 28, 2015 Only thing left to deal with now is brown dogs little quip about the mythical blaser misfire... Not really bothered what anyone shoots but I've seen a few too Blasers with the legendary "Blaser Click" for it to be considered mythical Gary A good friend of mine suffered terribly so much so that Blaser replaced more or less everything.First time out guess what I will say however they do appear to be consistently one of the most accurate out of the box rifles I've seen.That is of course when they do manage to fire Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brown dog Posted February 28, 2015 Report Share Posted February 28, 2015 Not really bothered what anyone shoots but I've seen a few too Blasers with the legendary "Blaser Click" for it to be considered mythical Gary A good friend of mine suffered terribly so much so that Blaser replaced more or less everything.First time out guess what I will say however they do appear to be consistently one of the most accurate out of the box rifles I've seen.That is of course when they do manage to fire Blaser was thrown off the MOD UK 338 trial for safety reasons. I've explained it before: Firing when it shouldn't in two ways: One was discharge on bolt closure, the other was discharge on dropping the magazine. Blaser denied it. But subsequently admitted a known problem when it happened in front of their engineers. One of the Welsh police forces returned all its rifles to have a similar denied-by-Blaser problem sorted. My own experience, is owning 3. First one had a 10% 'click-no-bang' incidence. Turned out the factory had cut the chamber a gnat's nadger too short. By the by with all the proven faults Blasers have - that was the MOD trial I referred to earlier not something heard from a chap in a pub- how do you know it's actually decocked? Yes the switch has moved, but........ Do this 100 times and I'll listen: Load and make ready. 'De-cock' the Blaser. Bang it around made-ready, smack the butt on the ground; then to demonstrate your faith in the de-cocker, put the muzzle in your mouth and press the trigger. Or would that be a silly thing to do? ...why? This thread is dull. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnthonyR Posted February 28, 2015 Report Share Posted February 28, 2015 I wish I had never mentioned a removable mag now.... I actually like Blasers as well, not for foxing though, stalking and driven hunting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbal Posted February 28, 2015 Report Share Posted February 28, 2015 I wish I had never mentioned a removable mag now.... I actually like Blasers as well, not for foxing though, stalking and driven hunting. Anthony,my bad,not yours. "leserkommentarspaltenhollenlarmverbotenbitteschoen". simples :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bradders Posted February 28, 2015 Report Share Posted February 28, 2015 The AR15 has a removeable magazine, comes in lengths of 20" or less, is chambered in .223 and is as cool as f**k It also has a safety that blocks the trigger from moving, ergo preventing the hammer from falling and the safety can't be put on until the rifle's made ready to fire, so by moving it will let you know if it is safe or not. Mind you, we don't rely on safeties, we use the Blackhawk Down "this is my safety" procedure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Offroad Gary Posted February 28, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 28, 2015 The AR15 has a removeable magazine, comes in lengths of 20" or less, is chambered in .223 and is as cool as f**k It also has a safety that blocks the trigger from moving, ergo preventing the hammer from falling and the safety can't be put on until the rifle's made ready to fire, so by moving it will let you know if it is safe or not. Mind you, we don't rely on safeties, we use the Blackhawk Down "this is my safety" procedure Did consider one but i need better than a 4moa rifle! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bradders Posted February 28, 2015 Report Share Posted February 28, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrCetrizine Posted February 28, 2015 Report Share Posted February 28, 2015 Even my .300 Blackout AR15 holds around 1 MOA while using subsonic 220gn bullets. Now those will put a fox down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forbie Posted March 1, 2015 Report Share Posted March 1, 2015 Well Gary you must have been using milsurp!! I have an SGC Speedmaster 20" Bull barrel and it shoots well below 1/2" at 100 yards with handloads 69 grn SMK and Vit N140 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Offroad Gary Posted March 1, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 1, 2015 Can we get this thread moved to stalking directory, ukv's far to intelligent for blaser bashing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJR Posted March 1, 2015 Report Share Posted March 1, 2015 Best to stop digging when you can no longer see the light Gary .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brown dog Posted March 1, 2015 Report Share Posted March 1, 2015 Best to stop digging when you can no longer see the light Gary .... Done the de-cocker 100% proof test (in my earlier post) yet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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