.300 Norma Magnum

[baldie]

Anyone got one, or has real experience of one ?

 

I fancy another project and it looks very good.

[The Gun Pimp]

Yeh - I had one Baldie about 20 years ago - before I knew any better.

 

We (Diggle) were just getting into 1000 yard benchrest and Magnums seemed the obvious way to go. The Norma was close to the 300 Winchester Magnum but had a longer neck if I remember. Willie Dixon had a 7mmBaer - an 8mm Rem Mag necked down to 7mm I think.

 

I had a rifle built by HS Precision on a long Remmy action - looked great and I did shoot a few respectable nine-inch groups with it at 1000 yards. But a 300 Magnum in a 12lb rifle was just too much (for my teeth!). Recoil was excessive (no brake) and it took too long to get five aimed shots off - we need to do it in around 15 seconds to beat the wind!

 

We learned a lot, the big Magnums went and we found 6mm and 6.5mm cartridges were the way to go - when Steve Dunn shot a four-inch group with his 6.5x55 AI Swede - til the 7mmWSM came along! Though even that seems to have fallen from favour.

 

Now, I shoot 6mm exclusively! But then, I only make holes in paper - I don't shoot large animals - or small ones for that matter.

[baldie]

Do you mean the .300 or the .308 norma mag Vince ?

 

The one I'm on about is basically a shortened .338 case necked down.

 

I,m fancying a 30-338 or 300 Norma when the 338 goes west.

 

Its just for something different that can be used in more ranges.

 

I,m the same as you...I only kill cardboard.

[The Gun Pimp]

Dave,

 

No - mine wasn't the 338 necked-down - just the 300 Norma Magnum.

[gbal]

Isn't the 308 NormaMag the 1960 CIP / SAAMI proprietary version-loaded only by Norma-but essentially the 338 Win Mag necked down,as in the wildcat 300 Norma magnum (aka 30-338,probably several).

Anyhow,there won't be much in it performance wise.Because it's legit (and Norma components) the 308 Norma Magnum is probably the best all round (short) 300mag,but what are this class 'best for'-as Vince says,not precision LR shooting for competition,unless you have exceptionally pachydermic paper,and a good dentist. Too many domestic equivalents in a very niche (3750 ft lb) hunting market for it to do well in US.

Long action,but not very long magazine,long neck-Foster's view is that it is a much better proposition for Tikka T3 rifles than 300 WInmag (bullet jump and recoil),though of course the 300Win mag generally snookered the 308Norma ...and the 300WSM must be doing much the same,in the marketplace.

 

That's not to say it won't be great fun,or at least interesting.Bang on,Dave.

 

g

 

Update- yer actual 300 Norma seems a newish number,and with the 230 Berger BC .743 seems to be very close to 338 250g BC .675.

The 300Norma is the 338 Norma Mag necked to 300. The 338Norma Mag is a legitimised 2010 CIP Norma version of the 338 Norma Mag wildcat of 2008.

The CIP 300 Norma Mag is shorter than the 338Lapua,with less taper,and slightly sharper shoulder,and slightly longer neck.

 

Add in the above impressive Berger bullet,way better than the earlier Sierras.

 

That potential makes it a formidable ultra long ranger. BANG on.

 

g

[Andrew]

I currently shoot a 308 Norma in a sporting rifle. Never experienced the 300 Norma tho most load books, as previously stated, say to use 30-338 data and visa versa. Mine is a Parker Hale commercial and it is very accurate. I have a ear-splitting Boss-type brake on it which truly helps with recoil. I form my brass from 300 Win mag.~Andrew

[trucraft]

I think you should order a reamer Dave.

If I had the money and space I would get one or a 7mm Jazz (necked down 300 Norma).

Have you read this?http://www.accuracy1stdg.com/content/docs/Binder7.pdf

[Ronin]

Why don't you speak to Denis, he has a lot of experience of the 30-338..

 

 

I understand barrel life is short.

 

Kirby Allen in the states has also done a heap of his Allen Mags on the 338 LM case,,,most if not all, offer tremendous killing accuracy / potential, though I'm not sure they would be acceptable to the "Yorkshire purse" re barrel life, powder usage and brass prices..

 

the 300 Blaser Magnum (non rimmed) looks pretty interesting, a few of us were considering using it as a base case for a 7mm last year before the 30 cal light got switched on now the 215 / 230 hybrids are here.

[Laurie]

As Gbal mentions, 308 Norma Mag and the 30-338 Mag wildcat are nearly the same thing, the former the regularised factory version, the latter a wildcat. Very popular in the US as a .300 hunting cartridge and long-range 'any calibre' match cartridge and popular here in Match Rifle before the 308 Win only rule change was introduced.

 

The introduction of the larger cased and higher performance .300 Win Mag killed it stone dead as a US sporting number overnight, just as Norma had got it selling well, and it never recovered as a factory number. (The 338 Win Mag preceded the .300 version by a few years.) American L-R competition 'sling shooters' tired of the various .300 magnum problems and basically decided there is a limit to how much recoil you can live with in a rifle whose sole support is the sling and the human body, not to mention short barrel life, copper fouling with the heavy Sierra MKs in use and so on, and gratefully turned to the 6.5-284.

 

But why use a belted case design anyway when the modern rimless .300 WSM has a very similar case capacity and the same allowed MAP? Belted numbers simply add complications and inconsistencies hence their rarity as a competition choice nowadays. If you want something in that performance category, but apart from the common herd, the Blaser Magnum?

[John UK]

Any idea of price of factory 300 norma mag ammo?

[Laurie]

There is a live ad on Guntrader UK right now for 117 mixed rounds of elderly s/h ammo plus 20 new cases for £120 which quotes the equivalent new price as £340. Norma now loads a single product, the 180gn Oryx. DIY handloaded 30-338 / 308 Norma would be much cheaper.

 

http://www.guntrader.co.uk/Equipment-For-Sale/Norma_308-Norma-Mag_For-Sale_140417105213428

[baldie]

Thats .308 Norma mag Laurie.

 

I think you guys are getting confused here. The case I'm talking about is not belted. Its basically a 338 lap magnum , necked down to .30 cal, but its shortened. Its not as long as the 30-338, which is just a necked down 338.

 

So you have a 338 bolt face sized case, 30 cal, and a little bit longer than a WSM at a guess but its gonna have a bigger capacity.

 

838424.jpg

[dannyt]

Les bacon ,ex border barrels gunsmith has made one , he used it last year at Blair against his 7 WSM on the Friday practise day at 1000yrds .

 

We shared a target and he ran both rifles without a pulled target, so as close to the same conditions as you could get

 

So it was quite a good test like for like .

 

The 7WSM shot inside the big 30 quite easily .

 

He had the magnum loaded with 215 and 230 heads running around 3100 .

 

A fun 30 cal and different but no real world gain over a good 7 magnum with nearly 20 grains less powder

[baldie]

Thanks for that Danny, i'll give Les a buzz.

 

I,m going to fit it to a surgeon XL which is a lapua magnum at the moment, so the case head needs to be lap mag, hence the desire for the .300 norma.

 

Its not for F class or anything like that, just something different which will feed from the XL mag system, and give a more useable long range tactical style rifle on a wider variety of public ranges.

[Laurie]

Gotcha, Dave! Too modern (and far too big) for me. Have fun with it. Anyway ... what's 8 thou' between friends?

[gbal]

Dave,maybe your cartridge is a wildcat rather than the CIP registered 300 Norma Magnum ?

 

The 416 Rigby is the parent case for both the familiar 338 Lapua Mag AND the much less used 338 Norma Mag (CIP 2012).

 

Here are some case dimensions in inches(but Wikipedia....):

 

338 Lapua Magnum case length 2.724 shoulder diam .563 base diam .587 (?saami cl ..774,sd.544?)

 

338 Norma Magnum 2.492 .571 .585

 

300 Norma Magnum 2.492 .563 .585

 

Hmmm ....add in Barnes:"(338 Lapua Magnum,aka 8.58x71 Finnish)...Research Armament developed a long range sniper cartridge,250g 338 at 300fps. A 416 Rigby case necked to 338 was selected..Lapua and Norma have put this cartridge into production.It is now CIP standard chambering,so also standard SAAMI,as the 338 Lapua Magnum."

 

Go figure.... at least the above alleged 300NM is 338 and shorter than 338LM....there are no doubt wildcats ......

 

'Confused.com' were no help on this !

 

gbal

[tackb]

nicked from wiki !

 

The current (2008) benchrest 1,000-yard (914.4 m) 5-shot group world record holder Tom Sarver used a .300 Hulk wildcat cartridge, which is basically a necked-down, blown out, shortened .338 Lapua Magnum variant, to achieve a 1.403-inch (35.64 mm) diameter 5-shot group on 7 July 2007

 

sounds interesting?

 

and as its called the hulk you can whisper 'hulk smash' everytime you fire it?

[trucraft]

I have read of several people making them on the Surgeon xl action. Should be a nice build.

I think the case capacity is around 103grns H20 and around 85-95grns powder?

[gbal]

More to figure....

 

The 338 Lapua Magnum case when it arrived in 1989 offered temptation for wildcatters-strong brass(68000psi) and 113 g capacity to drive the then 200-240 bullets fast.It was not resisted,with a plethora of wildcats (+/- shoulders for more/less capacity,then shorter cases for more intact shoulders!)

Often hunters,but as Tackb reports with Tom Sarver's Hulk-a shortened 30-338 also competition shooters. That's the 338 Lapua necked to 30-some confusion comes from the 30-338s based on other(sometimes belted US) 338s.

Plenty attempts to ....err Jazz it up;it's a bit of a RUM job sorting it all out. If you need commercial equivalents,see Dakota.If you feel you have been here before,its not unlike the 300 Canadian mag of 1989,which was based on the 300 Imperial Magnum,(.544 base) and so it goes,admittedly rather well.(200g@3100,in LA rem action).

 

OK,further nomenclature mischief arises though....remember that many US (wildcats ) are 30-338LMs (2.74 long,2.745 shoulder and .587 base, Redding make dies) .

 

However,the 300Lapua Mag (338LM necked down) is a CIP data sheet only,as lapua did enough brass for CIP registration,but there is currenty no commercial ammo production for the 300Lapua mag ,as registered CIP in Europe. It's pretty well the 30-338 LM of course.......

 

Accurate shooter had a go at all this,but the 300 Wylde Mag might be appearing soon,domestically........

 

gbal

[Jay1]

I've seen this shoot incredibly well and was lucky enough to have a few shots with it myself at our xmas shoot.

Mentioned earlier but maybe worth a second look...

 

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2014/12/300-blaser-magnum-barrel-block-beast-ireland/

[gbal]

Just for fun,let's see what happensin a 10mph cross wind:

 

30 Baser Mag230g@3140 drift is 4.14 moa or 41.4 inches

7 WSM 180 @3050 4.9 49.0

 

The actual advantage is therefore about 7.6 inches,divided by the wind reading error

 

With a 10% wind reading error,the advantage is .76 inch,20% it's 1.52inches etc,and pro rata with more wind.

 

Well,it all helps,and that .76 inch will just sometimes cut a score line.

 

The balance though is,can the extra recoil etc be held well enough to maintain that advantage (and remain acceptably as much fun to shoot repeatedly?)

 

The answer is best left blowin' in the wind,but most shooters tend to a negative,out to 1200y or so.

Of course the same analysis can be applied to any cartridges,with much the same conclusion: most shooters don't opt for mega magnum 30s in target competitions.The hot 7s and even 6.5s are enough,even with some wind.If there is no wind,anyone for 6BR...well,yes it seems.

 

gbal

[Jay1]

That's one way of looking at it. My wind reading ability wouldn't be to that standard and if I missed a pick up / let off by 1/2 moa that advantage would save me a point.

Its not something for me to worry about anyway as I shoot FTR I think the "real world" advantages are more than the apps prediction most of the time, that's based on my experience from comparing 155g hybrids with 185g Jugs.

The recoil surprised me a lot, not at all what I expected (in a good way). To compare with my .308 in motor sport terms - the .308 recoils with BHP and the Blaser with Torque, .308 a sharp thump while the Blaser a more progressive shove. Very manageable and a joy to shoot!

[Moorlander]

Baldie , did you ever get around to building this rifle ? 

On 02/02/2015 at 7:08 AM, baldie said:

Thanks for that Danny, i'll give Les a buzz.

 

I,m going to fit it to a surgeon XL which is a lapua magnum at the moment, so the case head needs to be lap mag, hence the desire for the .300 norma.

 

Its not for F class or anything like that, just something different which will feed from the XL mag system, and give a more useable long range tactical style rifle on a wider variety of public ranges.

 

[baldie]

No I didn't. I sold the rifle, and picked up an AW, I was lusting after.

[OSOK]

Hi All , Callum is putting a 7/300 Norma Mag barrel onto a 338 Cyclone for me twisted for the 195's ... Reamers are here . I know it's not the 30 cal spoke about but it's close .

OSOK