Guest 308Panther Posted June 9, 2007 Report Share Posted June 9, 2007 I would suggest something else from H&K... MP 5 is a good tact sub gun...but the 9 mm round is a pistol cartidge....and range is limited. but again....very pricey. Last MP5 w/ Volner Trigger conversion I saw for sale was $10 large.(thousand) and that was in Unfired (factory test fire) condition. 308Panther Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Smeagle Posted June 10, 2007 Report Share Posted June 10, 2007 Alright as we are doing this I will put up my choice. Snipers rifle would have to be a L96, second a Sako TRG maybe. Assault rifle H&K G36 in 2.80 SPC, second the new Sig. Sidearm the Walther P99 in .40, second Glock in .45. That's my personal opinion having used all manner of firearms, funnily enough none of them are American. I have no problem with American firearms however I just prefer European quality and design. Lets face it those canny krauts just make good guns. The Americans just make more and that comes back to the original argument of mass production, Remington as a mass produced rifle so if your looking for a custom rifle they just are not it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 308Panther Posted June 10, 2007 Report Share Posted June 10, 2007 Rem 700 M14 ,second choice...AR 10 1911 Yes, I am prejudiced.... 308Panther Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bambi-basher Posted June 10, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 10, 2007 I would suggest something else from H&K...MP 5 is a good tact sub gun...but the 9 mm round is a pistol cartidge....and range is limited. 308Panther Panther MP5"k"I thought was the 5.6X45 version, but a M14 .308 yes a good choice for Suicide bombers. B-b Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JR__ Posted June 10, 2007 Report Share Posted June 10, 2007 >>Back to the crutch of the matter you did not answer my question:- Can you say that a Sako or even the Jap’ crap Howa action is not technically a better designed action than a 700? We have no need to mention how well made they are compared to the Remmy.>> I do like the sako wares, and the poor mans sako, the tikka..Howa, not a lot of experience with 'em, but one of my mate's dad bought one in .308 last year. Nice rifle for the price. Feeds, extracts, decent bolt fit, nice throw. Finished product wasn't as clean as some of the sako's but all in all a decent barreled action. Political,ha, got me in one..What the govt agencies look for in their sniper or sharp shooting wares is price, availablity of rifles and parts, portability, and repeatability in all conditions. Uncle Sam tends to test products then buy en masse, and the manufacturers productivity has to be of a certain level to keep the quota..Yes that is important. The rem 700 action and it's clones has trumped this criteria for many years in the US. And yes, the Yanks do tend to look to their manufacturers, as it is a pretty good idea for a country to have immediate access to their own resources in regards to national security. That isn't just patriotism, it's common sense, especially in this day and age where the US seems to rub everyone the wrong way, as well as the fluctuating exchange rates breaking the bank....The Yanks have looked across the pond recently, take the S&B scopes and AI rifles in .338 Lap for example. Indeed, those are specialised purchases for specialised forces or police units, and both have American manufacturing links..Remington isn't the sole US manufacturer by the way, and are never the only ones on the table. But considering internal strategic resourcing, once Britain was fully capable of arming themselves, as there was a thriving bustling gun manufacturing economy in the heart of England..No more, the UK is left with small scale (yet highly regarded) riflemakers which I could count on half a hand. It's a shame you look upon the US with disdain in that regard.. It's pretty simple really. Semi-custom or full blown custom, remind yourself the difference between the two. Check your bank balance, figure out what you can afford, write that number down and stick it in a drawer. Do your research on a few options, investigate donor actions or the custom action manufacturers, availability, price 'em out. If going aftermarket stock or barrel, price them out. Talk to some gunsmiths, get some input from their perspective, and price them out. When all the lip service is said and done, write the new figure down and compare it to the one you stuck in the drawer. Whatever decision is made from there, is the right one for you. And don't you let anyone tell you otherwise. I think of rifle building as a project, you start with a piece of paper and a plan and end up with a rifle. Every rifle I've built for myself has been the dog's, but then immediately another project pops into me head and here I go again, this one's gonna be even mo' better..That's the fun of it.. Oh, and BTW, KISS works every time it's employed, BB.. Smeagle, <<Lets face it those canny krauts just make good guns. The Americans just make more and that comes back to the original argument of mass production, Remington as a mass produced rifle so if your looking for a custom rifle they just are not it.>> I can't fault Germany for producing precision wares, though there are many companies in america producing as good and better guns and actions and gun parts than the krauts. More gunsmiths, more stockists, more barrelmakers to choose from. America isn't all mass production, there are highly regarded precision makers across the board. There is a lot Germany is playing catch up on, and there is a lot the Americans can learn from Europe. I'm learning every day. JR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bambi-basher Posted June 10, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 10, 2007 Well JR Sit down mate because I agree with a lot of your last post, yep the Tikka/Sako’s are better finished than the Howa’s. I think we did get drawn off the base of the thread a bit because like you say what makes a good military arm is not the same criteria to use when picking a action to base a semi-custom or custom rifle on. As regards to choosing a firearm for your military we got the SA80 almost certainly in part because it was made in England, which by some accounts is OK now after 20 years of development, but I am sure there are others much more qualified to comment on military arms than me. The reason for starting this post was to provoke discussion into:- rather than following the flock and using Remmy 700 as a base for a semi-custom would it not be more cost effective to choose another manufactures action or go straight for a purpose made custom action? I see that on LRH that in one post some of you country men are also coming to a similar conclusion, is the writing on the wall for the 700 as a custom base? Oh hope you don’t get the idea that I am anti-American there are things I admire, but others that well lets................................................................................ say they make me smile. B-b Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JR__ Posted June 10, 2007 Report Share Posted June 10, 2007 Ha, Well, I'm american, and pretty set in my ways. Though for 20% of my life, have lived here in the UK. So my ways, well they've adapted thru the years.....Is the Brit way of life better than the American? no better or worse really. Just different, hard to explain unless you've been back and forth. I do retain one american trait, call a spade a spade.. The SA80 would have been a nice addition if it was made in England, but....Name me the company that produces the SA80 barrels..Ain't British.. >>The reason for starting this post was to provoke discussion into:- rather than following the flock and using Remmy 700 as a base for a semi-custom would it not be more cost effective to choose another manufactures action or go straight for a purpose made custom action?>> I don't see it as following the flock, this has mostly erupted due to the exchange rate and the influx of Rems into the UK market..which is about 1 tenth of one percent of the american market concerning Rem. This is probably where we clash. I see the Rem M700 as a nice platform for a decent semi custom build. Period, the record reflects it. Don't advance your objective by destroying the credibility of the remington, cuz I can never go with that. Not with a clear head anyhow..The remington is as good an option for build as the sako, tikka, howa, or most any other donor action. It's a personal preference up to a point, until you overstate it, and for you to prove your point by stating your factory howa produces .25 groups I'm glad for ya..That's what it's all about.. As I said, get a number in your head, and do some research. Figure it out, and if it happens a rem is the best option for you at the time, don't hestitate, because it won't let you down. JR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bambi-basher Posted June 10, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 10, 2007 The SA80 would have been a nice addition if it was made in England, I think it was 20 years ago but the company was sold, might of been to Heckler and Kock I am sure somebody will put it right if not. The remington is as good an option for build as the sako, tikka, howa, or most any other donor action That is were we disagree, but like you said they are cheap to buy to start with, but by the time you have finish sorting the action out you would have been better of choosing another base for your project. until you overstate it, and for you to prove your point by stating your factory howa produces .25 groups I'm glad for ya..That's what it's all about.. When I first started shooting such good groups(3 shot groups I admit not 5) I put a target on one of the sites, now I don't beleive it is typical for a out of the box Howa for one minute, but mine has shot such groups on more than one occasion in front of witness. I personally think it is aided by the fact that the heavy barrel has been cut back to 20” and then having a T8 on the end helps to dampen the vibrations in the barrel. As this is your area of expertise what do you think? I am not against Remmington as a company per say, just think there are better rifles out there for the same or a little more money. What are your thoughts on the Browning A-bolt? B-b Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 308Panther Posted June 10, 2007 Report Share Posted June 10, 2007 "What are your thoughts on the Browning A-bolt?" We wont go there... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vermincinerator Posted June 10, 2007 Report Share Posted June 10, 2007 I do believe Royal Armaments bought H&K quite some time ago but Tony sold the whole lot to the nationaly owned and heavyly government subsidised GIAT of France. Ian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bambi-basher Posted June 10, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 10, 2007 "What are your thoughts on the Browning A-bolt?"We wont go there... So whats the low down on your side of the pond Panther? Ian So now we have to rely on the French for our rifles………………………………..were fecked now. B-b Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 308Panther Posted June 10, 2007 Report Share Posted June 10, 2007 Hmmm,....Browning. Seems some like them,I thought they were better with the Belgiums... but then some smithy friends say the the jap steel is better.and the Belgiums were too soft. Last few I handled I felt the bolt was very sloppy in the guides when the bolt was opened and pulled back as far as it would go...Some guys like the Boss dampener....Some feel its another source of frustration...specially with tuned hand loads. I own several Browning products...Shotguns mainly. Superposed Pidgeon Grade 12 ga. Couple A5's in 12 ga and a BDA .380 that is essentially a Berretta Model 81... and techincally its Angels since its her name on the papers....But she does let me tickle it every once in awhile. And technically my 1911 is "Browning" also...Since it was John Moses's design....Just mass produced under Colts name, then later picked up by Springfield and others... :P My comment of..."We wont go there" was based more on the length of discussion of the Rem 700. and quite the discussion its turned out to be... 308Panther Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 308Panther Posted June 11, 2007 Report Share Posted June 11, 2007 If the French bought into to HK....There went a damned good gun. I really liked the looks of that PSG1 A1.... 308Panther Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeltaV Posted June 11, 2007 Report Share Posted June 11, 2007 I shot a full blown custom howa yesterday, that was paid for as all singing , all dancing. It was absolute crap, religiously throwing the third shot.....and from a very heavy german barrel. It will require some more work, and expense to make it shoot. If thats howa, keep bringing the remmy,s . I,m not going to say who, or where it was built B-b, but if it was mine, i would not be happy at all. not fair of me really to judge the action , on one gun really, when i,m fairly sure the guns problems lie elsewhere. A gun like this should put ANY ammo, inside an inch, never mind handloads, and as yet, it wont. I,ve just spent nearly 4 hours, stripping a standard howa trigger, stoning, and honing the sear, and blade, and fully polishing all internals, fitting weaker springs, and generally going to town on it, to get a better lighter pull, that is safe. I finished up at a very smooth 2lbs, that snaps like a glass rod.This is one of the few drawbacks to the howa....there isn,t a good match grade trigger available for it...the timney wont go safely that low without similar work. These are fine for a hunting rifle, not so hot for a match gun.The only way to get a lower weight will involve spring reduction on the firing pin i think, which in turn, could cause other problems. What it really needs, is a 3 levered trigger unit Baldie. with regards to throwing shots, first thing i would check would be that the action screws through the stock where tight. I think you might be refering to a weatherby vanguard and not to a howa. they are not one and the same as the Howa. The triggers are not the same and are not interchangable without some machining. the vanguard has a 2 position safety and the howa a 3, also the locating screw and the cross slot are in differing possitions and the vanguard triggers are of a much lesser standard than that of the Howa. that becomes apparent when you try to tune one. A howa triger will tune safely and reliably down to around 500g ( about 1lb) the vanguard trigger will not go below 2 lbs without a lot of replacing of parts ( taken from either a timney or a howa and re worked) what was the actual pull weight on the vanguard trigger in the 1st place?? and i doubt you will find many rifles will put any ammo, hand loaded or not inside 1", depending on bullet type, primer type, powdertype, case type, seating depth, OAL etc etc you can have many many variables. soem rifles will shoot many ammo types well but not excell with any, some will shoot only one load excellently, each and every rifle is unique in this respect, one should not forget that fact. I would expect that the rifle came with an accuracy garantie and a 2 year warranty,??? hence i can't see what it would take any expense or work at all to get to shoot, apart from ensuring the stock screws are tight, ( 65in/Lbs) and finding a load it likes, and from one outing i doubt you can actualy make any conclusions at all, apart from , maybe the stock screws wheren't tight !!?? Anyway. Rem v Howa. technicaly from a design point of view, the Howa is superior.( the vanguard is inferoir) But the Remington can be made to perform but so can the Howa, as can a Sako 75, a Tikka and a whole host of other actions. Where the remington exells is in the amount of aftermarket parts that are available, but they are available beause they are needed. The other action types, need in some cases less, in some cases more. Luckily variety is the spice of life, it would be boring if we all shot the same rifle now wouldn't it. Its a case for horses for courses. Comparing Military sniper rifles to civvie sporters is apples to oranges. Semi customs to full costomes likewise. Its all interesting stuff though. RP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Smeagle Posted June 11, 2007 Report Share Posted June 11, 2007 Kinda losing a bit of the track of this, but I sorta agree with many of the comments made. The French bought H&K, that is sacrilege of the worst order. I mean have you seen their cars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vermincinerator Posted June 11, 2007 Report Share Posted June 11, 2007 Let me get one thing straight, the french did not buy Royal Armaments, Tony gave it to them for substantially less then what it was worth. He just wanted to off-load it, after the current contracts had been completed and by doing so destroyed the last of the UK smallarms industry. Ian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redfox Posted June 11, 2007 Report Share Posted June 11, 2007 ROF was bought by BAE some years ago under their investment company name ( name just escapes me momentarily) they set about closing/ asset stripping the various factories round the country. The SA80 was still having feeding/ reliability problems at revision 20+ and as BAE had bought H&K they gave it them to play with, apparently it was better afterwards but not perfect. Then Tony and co ( Gordon will be a great deal worse!) decided to buy ammo from India so removing the last bit of profitability from ROF, so BAE Unloaded it to Giat for a reasonable price for a company with little or no orders etc. Just imagine, ringing up Premier of India, " were thinking of starting a war with X country, will we be ok for ammo?" reply, "Not on your life, we do a lot of businees with them so you cant have any ammo for that" THIs country is Knackered, if I was younger I would already have left and turned out the lights. Redfox Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 308Panther Posted June 11, 2007 Report Share Posted June 11, 2007 The perplexities of politics... Who owns what,who supplies to who.... International conflicts have started over alot less... 308Panther Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Smeagle Posted June 12, 2007 Report Share Posted June 12, 2007 That's alright this month the Australian Government announced a multi billion dollar expansion and upgrade in munitions production. There has to be money in it. So as long as you don't go to war with anyone with a submarine you will be fine. He is a smart man that Tony Blair sell your arms factories in the middle of a war. Please sir may I have another. What a state of affairs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redfox Posted June 12, 2007 Report Share Posted June 12, 2007 To be fair ( very reluctantly) other than buying ammo elsewhere, Tony wasnt in the driving seat, BAE is a private company, after profits as easily as possible. No wonder the US views its buying of American defence contractors with concern! This was also the government that decided to buy uniforms and boots from abroad too, kicking the Nottingham area in the nads in the process, currently bought from Germany I think. Redfox Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ds1 Posted June 12, 2007 Report Share Posted June 12, 2007 B LIAR.....loves wars, hates soldiers. (sorry off topic). David. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 308Panther Posted June 18, 2007 Report Share Posted June 18, 2007 "No wonder the US views its buying of American defence contractors with concern!" Yes,We do look our defense contractors with alot of concern.... We scrutinize were every single dollar and cent is or would be going.... How else could you get a $300 hammer and a $500 toilet seat???? 308Panther Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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