Euros

[6mmBR]

We'll done Des a fantastic win.

I managed to finish 6th overall so was well chuffed.

Our F open team did a brilliant job and brought home the gold.

I was so proud to have captained such a wonderful team. All the lads did a superb job and were a very slick team.

Thanks guys

David.

[Laurie]

Richie and Dave (6mmBR),

 

fantastic news (on the teams) and well done! (individual matches). When I left I'd heard about the Open team's win, but Paul Crosbie, FTR Rutland GB captain, said he thought we should be in for a medal, but maybe 'just' Bronze.

[desparado]

Hi Guys,

 

Thanks for all your comments.

That was the most enjoyable week of shooting ever.

Great weather, excellent markers and great company.

 

Though, I may need to take up your offers of refuge for an asylum-seeker...

Laurie - did you get home with the dodgy motor?

 

Cheers,

Des.

[Laurie]

Though, I may need to take up your offers of refuge for an asylum-seeker...

Laurie - did you get home with the dodgy motor?

 

Cheers,

Des.

 

Well done again Des - a truly popular win.

 

Re asylum - I really hope that's not going to be needed, not that you'd be unwelcome of course. (I read that although I can't trusted with a vote being an 'expat', in the event of 'Yes', some jobsworth in Holyrood or Glasgow will write in due course and tell me that I've automatically become a 'Scottish citizen'!)

 

No car problems yesterday thankfully - reckon (hope) it was a combination of a tired battery, maybe bit worn injectors and the cold morning. Alan Baldry, his V8 Landie, and a set of jump leads got me up and running again on Saturday afternoon - it mucked the day up though.

[OSOK]

Hi Des , Well done on the win as wining the Euro's is far more impressive and should be suitably rewarded in the points and not as just a national !

 

I thought that Rutland teams consisted of four as opposed to eight ?

 

Greg

[Laurie]

I thought that Rutland teams consisted of four as opposed to eight ?

 

Greg

 

 

Four shooters on one target as opposed to national teams having eight shooters on two adjacent targets. Some Rutland teams do only have four and the shooters take turns to leave their lane and do the obligatory 'register keeping' on another team. The more sophisticated Rutland teams have up to the allowed seven members in total - 1 full time register keeper elsewhere on the line, a wind coach and a plotter. The national teams are allowed 16 members - which if fully taken up would be eight shooting, two register keepers (scorekeeping for two different teams), two wind coaches (one on each target), two plotters, the team captain managing the whole show and a 'gofer' / armourer / whatever to help out as and when needed, act as another pair of eyes on a key wind flag (useful if it's upwind behind the firing line or at one end of the line where the coaches can't see it - that was often the case in the Worlds at Raton last summer where the wind always came from behind the shooters).

[John UK]

Any one got a link to the over all results ,please?

[OSOK]

Hi Laurie , what was the Rutland team line up for the FTR ?

 

OSOK

[Laurie]

Paul Crosbie, captain and main wind coach. Steve Donaldson alongside plotting and coaching. Shooters were Rick Carless, Steve Rigby, David Rollafson, Bill McIntyre. And yours truly spent the 900 yards match with Ramon Fito's Spanish FTR team and 1,000 with 'F-Class Europe', four really great Open shooter fellows, one each from Germany, Spain (I think), France and the Netherlands who include at least one UKV member (Bianchi) .......... keeping their scores. I was pretty sure the team would win something with such a strong membership, but Paul seemed a bit worried as I left before the results were announced, reckoning on Bronze, Silver maybe. They shot a cracking 292 agg at 900 (ex 300) but 1,000 was a lot harder as the wind got up and FTR scores suffered accordingly, but obviously the competition dropped at least as many points as 'our' lads, presumably a bit more.

[OSOK]

Laurie , I'm surprised that the main GB team would leave out two of the top three shooters in the leauge this year ? Seems like a recipe for getting your ass kicked IMHO

 

OSOK

[Laurie]

Any one got a link to the over all results ,please?

 

 

A report, photos and full results link should appear soon on the GB F-Class website. They're not up yet though (Tuesday morning).

[Laurie]

Any one got a link to the over all results ,please?

 

 

A report, photos and full results link should appear soon on the GB F-Class website. They're not up yet though (Tuesday morning).

 

Laurie , I'm surprised that the main GB team would leave out two of the top three shooters in the leauge this year ? Seems like a recipe for getting your ass kicked IMHO

 

OSOK

 

I can't comment - I stepped down from the team at the end of last year and happened to find myself helping Paul Crosbie out when he heard I hadn't found anybody with a spare Rutland team shooter spot on Sunday.

 

I took my FTR rifle down and shot for 101RC 'Blue' in the Thursday Minor Teams 'Dolphin Guns' match helping them get 'Gold', but otherwise shot in 'Open' throughout (with a 6.5X47L and 123gn Scenars!). Mik Mak apparently failed to notice 'Open' on my entries as I was squadded with my old muckers in FTR throughout - which I won't complain about, great bunch. And ironically, I came home with two GB FCA gold medals for involvement with FTR teams!

[Laurie]

Laurie , I'm surprised that the main GB team would leave out two of the top three shooters in the leauge this year ? Seems like a recipe for getting your ass kicked IMHO

 

OSOK

 

 

Thinking further on this, a key strategy and task for both GB F teams is to develop wind coaching skills. We poached top TR and MR wind coaches in 2012 and last year for the F-Class Worlds at Raton as well as two years' worth of Euros, Paul Kent and Jane Messer in FTR's case. That could only be temporary, and there has to be really strong and experienced wind coaching by August 2017 for the next World's in Ottawa. Paul and Steve are two of the rising stars in this rather specialised activity and the GB team management must have believed that having its likely future coaches get real high-level competition experience in under full match stress was the primary goal.

 

Remember, assuming that all the trigger pullers have adequate rifles, ammo, and don't pull any shots, it really is the quality of the wind coaching assisted by accurate plotting and assessment of the plot that wins team matches. It's a different use of the skills' mix from individual matches where bthe shooter has to be alive to about five different things before and during the shot. From the shooter's point of view it's much, much simpler - you lie there concentrating solely on the target and getting a good shot off when the coach says 'Target no. X 'Go!' and forget flags and everything else outside of that 'bubble'. I believe the main team had rifle problems which lost them a crucial few points.

[OSOK]

Hmmmmm Life would be boring if we all thought the same but i'm struggling with the idea of giving your ' two rising stars ' to your competition to experience ' full match stress '

 

Maybe it will catch on and Van Gaal will try it with Rooney & Van Persie this weekend

 

OSOK

[Laurie]

Hi OSOK.

 

You've not grasped what I'm saying. The 'rising star' refers to wind reading and coaching, the ability to build a mental picture of how external conditions are shaping as the match progresses, the patterns (if any) appearing, and crucially what the flags and mirage are saying about the conditions at any particular point in time. With teams matches string-shot within an overall time limit (100 minutes per 4 shooter target for 2+15), there is no 45-second rule that says you must shoot with whatever the range throws at you. The good coach may well keep the shooter waiting two, three, or more minutes until a condition recurs, then get half a dozen shots down as fast as the target is marked while the 'condition' holds.

 

On the shooter's side of the fence, the ideal team shot is a robot, an automaton who goes into the 'zone', or 'bubble' as it's often called by shooting trainers or snipers. Heat, cold, wind rising or falling on the firing line are ignored, more likley not even registered. This human shooting 'machine' melds into one with the rifle and only waits for the command that says 'Target whatever - GO!' and takes a perfectly released shot aimed to within an inch or less of the point on the taget centre that he used on the last 14 perfectly released shots. He or she doesn't know or care about what the flags say or do - that's the coach's job and it's that individual who alters the sights on the rifle, not the shooter.

 

So, imagine two league shooters who are good enough to be chosen for the team. Shooter A has a rifle and ammo and shooting skills that see his or her shots barely stay within one-MOA elevation. BUT .... he or she is the world's best wind and mirage reader. So, this shooter hardly drops a point throughout the season, doesn't have the highest V-counts (on elevations) but is in the top two or three places in the league rankings through reading the wind so well.

 

Shooter B on the other hand loads the best ammunition in the circuit, gets 100% consistency through X-raying bullets or whatever, cuts powder kernels in half with a razor blade to get every charge the same to 0.001gn. Also, he or she has the world's 'best' F or FTR rifle and replaces the barrel every 500 or 1,000 rounds. He or she also practices three times a week, does breathing and isometric exercises and trigger control, body position, all the rest is fantastic. BUT .... he or she misses or misreads rather a lot of wind calls, especially the 'nuanced' ones, and the plot at the end of a match is a straight horizontal line - perfect elevation but streches from a bit left of the five-ring to a bit right of it. He or she is several places further down the league standings and barely makes the cut to be considered as a 'development team' member.

 

So ... on the Rooney and Van Persie (footballers? never heard of the second one!) comparison, when allocating roles to A and B, the former is the star shooter so gets the trigger pulling job. No - quite the reverse. A is the star wind reader and trains as a coach. B who shoots like a robot even when a column of soldier ants has just marched up his right trouser leg and is 100% focussed on keeping the crosshairs on an aiming mark to within a few millimetres as he takes another smooth consistent shot is presented with near perfect wind calls thanks to A's expertise and shoots V after V. For your England (?) football team analogy to apply, Rooney and whatever his name is would wear comms equipment throughout a match and would get instructions constantly from the team coach or manager sitting on the sidelines. Footie teams have strategies, more accurately tactics, but they're geared to getting the ball to the key player in the circumstances and from there it's purely individual speed and skills until he either scores or passes the ball to another player who is in a better position to score. (Well, that's my read on how it works anyway.)

 

When team captains go through the shooter selection process, to misquote Tony Blair, 'It's Elevashun!, Elevashun!, Elevashun!' allied to an ability to have a near inhuman stamina and concentration. The not quite top shooter but who shoots perfect elevations and doesn't lose concentration irrespective of weather, match stress or whatever is the ideal candidate for trigger puller. An equally good, or even not quite so good shooter, in a scoring sense but who sees every blade of grass twitch out on the range and every nuance of flag changes serves the team best by calling the wind and sitting in the chair next to the shooter directing him or her by physically moving the scope turrets. Some top individual match shooters have trouble mentally with the team shooting role - they don't want to switch all the other faculties off. They subconsciously think they can read the conditions better than the coach and have to subdue these thoughts, stop looking at the key wind flag for the conditions and so on.

 

In practice, the Shooter A and B split is unlikely to break so sharply, but the principles apply. Some individuals will never shoot at their best under team conditions however and are a poor choice for the team unless they have other skills that benefit the team as a whole.

 

Finally, the minimalist approach still applies, especially in Rutland teams. The four body team is often four shooters, no more. They shoot as individuals as if it were an individual match - if they're really good and the conditions don't produce difficult wind patterns over the 100 minutes, all of their 60 shots may be very good and they win medals. But they are only as good as their weakest individual link. A well coached and managed team produces synergistic benefits that may see a group of slightly weaker shooters win, or a group of really strong individual shooters almost guarantee a win and can overcome being unlucky with the target(s) drawn before the match - a big issue at Bisley in some conditions with some 'pegs' very much preferable to others.

[Pba]

Well done again to Des, a very popular winner and tough break for our own Jimmy Finn coming second only beaten on V count.

A great few days shooting, looking forward to next year.

 

Mark

[Elwood]

F class rifle team.

[nowler]

osok, don't try and second guess gb team selections, many decisions don't make much sense

[Laurie]

The results link is up on the GB-FCA website now

 

http://www.gbfclass.co.uk/index.php/results-2014

[OSOK]

............ Naughty Nowler !

 

Just seen the results and well done to Marco for 3rd place , good shooter and nice guy .

 

OSOK

[Hillhunter]

Well done to all who attended Bisley , I was there myself , my first visit , and really enjoyed it , looking forward to next year

[Coltman911]

 

 

You've not grasped what I'm saying. The 'rising star' refers to wind reading and coaching, the ability to build a mental picture of how external conditions are shaping as the match progresses, the patterns (if any) appearing, and crucially what the flags and mirage are saying about the conditions at any particular point in time. With teams matches string-shot within an overall time limit (100 minutes per 4 shooter target for 2+15), there is no 45-second rule that says you must shoot with whatever the range throws at you. The good coach may well keep the shooter waiting two, three, or more minutes until a condition recurs, then get half a dozen shots down as fast as the target is marked while the 'condition' holds.

 

On the shooter's side of the fence, the ideal team shot is a robot, an automaton who goes into the 'zone', or 'bubble' as it's often called by shooting trainers or snipers. Heat, cold, wind rising or falling on the firing line are ignored, more likley not even registered. This human shooting 'machine' melds into one with the rifle and only waits for the command that says 'Target whatever - GO!' and takes a perfectly released shot aimed to within an inch or less of the point on the taget centre that he used on the last 14 perfectly released shots. He or she doesn't know or care about what the flags say or do - that's the coach's job and it's that individual who alters the sights on the rifle, not the shooter.

 

So, imagine two league shooters who are good enough to be chosen for the team. Shooter A has a rifle and ammo and shooting skills that see his or her shots barely stay within one-MOA elevation. BUT .... he or she is the world's best wind and mirage reader. So, this shooter hardly drops a point throughout the season, doesn't have the highest V-counts (on elevations) but is in the top two or three places in the league rankings through reading the wind so well.

 

Shooter B on the other hand loads the best ammunition in the circuit, gets 100% consistency through X-raying bullets or whatever, cuts powder kernels in half with a razor blade to get every charge the same to 0.001gn. Also, he or she has the world's 'best' F or FTR rifle and replaces the barrel every 500 or 1,000 rounds. He or she also practices three times a week, does breathing and isometric exercises and trigger control, body position, all the rest is fantastic. BUT .... he or she misses or misreads rather a lot of wind calls, especially the 'nuanced' ones, and the plot at the end of a match is a straight horizontal line - perfect elevation but streches from a bit left of the five-ring to a bit right of it. He or she is several places further down the league standings and barely makes the cut to be considered as a 'development team' member.

 

So ... on the Rooney and Van Persie (footballers? never heard of the second one!) comparison, when allocating roles to A and B, the former is the star shooter so gets the trigger pulling job. No - quite the reverse. A is the star wind reader and trains as a coach. B who shoots like a robot even when a column of soldier ants has just marched up his right trouser leg and is 100% focussed on keeping the crosshairs on an aiming mark to within a few millimetres as he takes another smooth consistent shot is presented with near perfect wind calls thanks to A's expertise and shoots V after V. For your England (?) football team analogy to apply, Rooney and whatever his name is would wear comms equipment throughout a match and would get instructions constantly from the team coach or manager sitting on the sidelines. Footie teams have strategies, more accurately tactics, but they're geared to getting the ball to the key player in the circumstances and from there it's purely individual speed and skills until he either scores or passes the ball to another player who is in a better position to score. (Well, that's my read on how it works anyway.)

 

When team captains go through the shooter selection process, to misquote Tony Blair, 'It's Elevashun!, Elevashun!, Elevashun!' allied to an ability to have a near inhuman stamina and concentration. The not quite top shooter but who shoots perfect elevations and doesn't lose concentration irrespective of weather, match stress or whatever is the ideal candidate for trigger puller. An equally good, or even not quite so good shooter, in a scoring sense but who sees every blade of grass twitch out on the range and every nuance of flag changes serves the team best by calling the wind and sitting in the chair next to the shooter directing him or her by physically moving the scope turrets. Some top individual match shooters have trouble mentally with the team shooting role - they don't want to switch all the other faculties off. They subconsciously think they can read the conditions better than the coach and have to subdue these thoughts, stop looking at the key wind flag for the conditions and so on.

 

In practice, the Shooter A and B split is unlikely to break so sharply, but the principles apply. Some individuals will never shoot at their best under team conditions however and are a poor choice for the team unless they have other skills that benefit the team as a whole.

 

Finally, the minimalist approach still applies, especially in Rutland teams. The four body team is often four shooters, no more. They shoot as individuals as if it were an individual match - if they're really good and the conditions don't produce difficult wind patterns over the 100 minutes, all of their 60 shots may be very good and they win medals. But they are only as good as their weakest individual link. A well coached and managed team produces synergistic benefits that may see a group of slightly weaker shooters win, or a group of really strong individual shooters almost guarantee a win and can overcome being unlucky with the target(s) drawn before the match - a big issue at Bisley in some conditions with some 'pegs' very much preferable to others.

 

 

Hi Laure ....Wow!

 

I had never read this as absolute truth and I'm really learning a lot !

 

Thanks