First or Second Focal Plane?

[Big Al]

I understand the difference but Im not sure how this would relate to varminting?

 

I would most likely do my ranging with a rangefinder or on the required mag of a SFP scope so I cant really see any advantage to FFP but as always Im open to be educated. Does having a wider reticule at higher mag have any advantages?

 

Im thinking about buying a Vortex Viper 6-24x50 PST.

[gbal]

I understand the difference but Im not sure how this would relate to varminting?

 

I would most likely do my ranging with a rangefinder or on the required mag of a SFP scope so I cant really see any advantage to FFP but as always Im open to be educated. Does having a wider reticule at higher mag have any advantages?

 

Im thinking about buying a Vortex Viper 6-24x50 PST.

Al the preference for FFP and SFP varies between different shooter disciplines,and to a lesser degree,individualpreferences.

 

Target shooters ,generally at known distances,have no need of any ranging system.The preference is generally for SFP,and as Fine a reticue a can be clearly seen,but obscuring minimal area of the target,and high mag. (variable though,for conditions).

 

Tactical-type shooters generally have a preference for FFP,and the ability to quickly range variable distance targets-faster than a separate laser,but depends on knowing target size...again reticules do vary,though seldom as fine as target types....mag is more typically in the 5-25 range.

 

Varminters really should be using a laser rangefinder,especially beyond the 'reasonably flat' shooting of their rifle(and that's about 2-3 hundred yards.FFP or SFP seems optional,though FFP is perhaps less frequent-maybe because of the FFP features-and the very limited choice of high mag FFP,at least til recently.Reticule choice as above-it's personal-but it's not easy to se any significant advantage in the FFP reticule. Some scopes have hold over hatches,though you will be lucky if these exactly map onto even yardages-

the notional '400 yard ' one might actually be on at 423 y for your rig-fine as long as you know that.

Scopes reticule/turrets should at least be the same units (mil/mil;OR moa/moa-def not mil/moa!)

 

At least until recently,and I think still in varminting heartland-western USA- the SFP has predominated,for several reasons-but the variable reticule is very rarely,if ever,cited as an advantage for varminting.As ever,try and see-literally!

 

But really,it's your preference-you may have to compromise a bit on mag/price/features etc,but anyone who really thinks that a top end scope-FFP or SFP,or mid range one-is an impossible compromise is fussy indeed,and will probably be forever frustrated.

 

gbal

[Big Al]

Thanks George,

 

SFP is cheaper on the Viper by some £100 which is welcome but I wanted to see if there was an obvious benefit to FFP while varminting that I had either missed or did not understand. As we discussed previously, I would rather rely on a laser rangefinder and in the event of being without, it its still possible to rangefind with a SFP on the correct magnification.

[gbal]

Al,agreed-I was trying to put the issue as fairly as I could-FFP are typically more complex inside- hence the higher price.I doubt that in the med/top scopes this price difference would be decisive.AS ever,it's interesting to solicit the experiences/views of other users.

I'm pretty sure that if I was given a S&B 5-25pmii,I'd be keeping it ,and liking it..a lot...but I'm not rushing out to get one to replace any 8-42 Night Force on 'varmint' class rigs. If I were to take up 'tactical'' more seriously ,then the balance would probably change-quicker ranging and less magnification would come in,and it seems preferred by more such shooters.When in Rome,have a good look at least ,at what the Romans do.....unless you are an American,in which case,according to Winston,you will eventually do the right thing,but insist on trying everything else first.

 

Now,does that seem familiar wrt shooting gear too! ?

 

g

[JDBenelliM1]

Al, I was looking at the the PST as an option, based on its price and the fact they offer mil/mil. Personally I would go for SFP as I dont like the idea of a thicker ret on full mag. I have read a few opinions on the scope - some say that the hash marks are to small to use at lowest mag and the ret becomes quite thick at high mag others find the ret OK. As George says its a personal thing.

 

I also use a laser RF so I dont need to range with the ret.

 

The EBR-1 ret on FFP @ x24 is 16mm wide at 400m where the SFP is half that, 8mm wide. This and the fact its £100 cheaper is why i would choose SFP

 

If you go for a PST let me know how you get on with it.

 

Cheers

John

[brown dog]

The utility of ffp for shooters is NOT in their use in rangefinding.

 

This is a fallacy that is routinely trotted out and has become a truism. Rangefinding with a mil ret is a measure of last resort when all other tools, systems or aids are non functional, unusable or lost.

It's hugely inaccurate and a measure of absolute last resort.

 

 

FFP's actual utility lies in the fact that it enables the shooter to measure his fall of shot at any magnification - as an angular measurement; and then apply that same angular measurement directly to his turrets with no maths, no thought - nothing.

 

Regardless of range, and at any and all ranges, simply 'See 0.9, dial 0.9'

 

The key feature in understanding that utility is understanding angular measurement - be that mil or moa.

The key consideration in making sure you can make use of that utility is to ensure the units on the turrets match the units on the ret: mil/mil or moa/moa - and of course that the scope is ffp, in order that your measurements are correct at any mag, not just one.

 

This is widely and hugely misunderstood, but actually a hugely simple concept.

[Big Al]

Thanks BD, I kind of already understood that bit about measuring bullet drop, and this can exually be done with a SFP scope albeit only on the single specificed mag range to which the subtensions are deemed to be correct, in the case of the Viper PST that is 24x.

 

So other than being able to read the fall at all mag settings and as John pointed out with the reticule obscuring more of the target at full mag (which I didnt want) I have opted for the SFP 6-24x50 scope which is now sitting on my rifle

 

John,

 

I bought this scope today to replace a Sightron Stac which has to go back to the US for repair on a parallax issue, first impressions on the Viper seem good and Im away out now to zero ot so will let you know my thoughts later.

[brown dog]

Al, yes. The other consideration on cheaper scopes is that, by virtue of the way they're put together, ffp scopes will not experience wandering zero at changed zoom settings, whereas an sfp depends entirely on the mechanics of the zoom mechanism being perfect.

[That bald headed Geordie]

Deja vu,I think-I was just trying to be balanced-just as either moa or mil can be used to correct fall of shot,but granted the ffp has the advantage of doing this at any magnification.

There is a choice-but where the FFP loses this advantage is the very frequent varminting situationwhere the fall of shot cannot be seen-in grass eg.And in any case if the range was laser ,as it should be,the fall of shot should be a hit ,anyhow-and any near miss will be within a few inches,and easily correctable-if your sentient target is so obliging as to remain still. Windage is more likely to be out,but for both systems-many ffp will have hash marks-so if all of shot is 1 and a half hashes off,hold off one and a half hashes in the opposite direction on your scope.

It is ,as I emphasised a matter of personal choice-it seems to me,there is not much in it-provided you actually miss first shot,cam see bullet splash,and the target doesn't move(run,fly). I think I'd be more prepared generally in a varminting situation,to take the extra mag,that the uncertainties just outlined,but othes might not.

You don't need a degree in maths -though it helps-to make moa/mil adjustments in the vast majority of varminting situatioms that I have experienced.It does help to have such experiences,then a personally valid choice can be made on informed grounds.

As said repeatedly,there has to be some compromisin' on the road to varmintin' horizon.

Best to not miss first shot-and it's doubtful if either system has any real advantage in making that any more probable.. Varmints are not obliging steel plates ,thoughtfully hung against a safe background that shows POI misses readily-and if they are,FFP won't help,and neither will SFP.

Of course,the vast majority of varminters may be wrong-especially the longer range ones,,but if anyone is going to be critical,they had best be prepared to meet points on both sides,pro and con. There will almost certainly be some shots to be taken when the alternate system would be preferable,but at least there is choice,best matched to the modal shooting scenario,but with a clear idea of the compromises likely for other shots.

 

Again personal ethics,but the liklihood of a miss varminting out to 250/300 ish yards should be quite small (10?),and as the liklihood of a miss increases,so should the liklihood of taking the shot at all. Factor that into with the probability that you won't get a chance for the second shot anyhow. Even simple arithmetic may not be needed,though "two left,so two right' skill tier may be.

As in the famous apocryphal experiment with well planned pilot testing,the design failed,as the pilots flew away.

So do crows,magpies and (muatis mutandis) most varmints.

I'd think for stalkers,there is a clear personal choice-distance is modest,compared to deer size,but they do not contemplate missing with the first shot (for some of the above reasons,and others)

 

The good news,for some,is that experts like B Litz don't have a section on these pragmatics,unlike uphill/downhill-but let's keep a level playing field here,as a sine of rapprochement,or it's kissin cosine.

gbal

George. You must get out more!!!!! :)

[brown dog]

 

I do find it funny how everyone's so narrow on this and wants to deal in absolutes.

 

The FFP and turret/ret match also allows effective 2 shot zeroing, or check zeroing etc - or thereabouts; I hope, George, that you'll allow that vermin shooters occasionally (actually, fairly frequently) shoot their rifles at paper or other targetry for zeroing and not every single shot is a shot at quarry hiding in long grass?!

 

The real reason most people don't touch this stuff is because it's widely not understood, and most stop at the 'I don't do metric' level of interrogation - where really it's about understanding angular measurement and subtensions - no maths at all.

 

Very often thought stops in the various sport shooting camps at lack of understanding that's excused with:

"why do I need to know, I only shoot targets on fixed distance ranges"

or

"why do I need to know, I use a laser for rangefinding"

or

"why do I need to know, I only shoot vermin and can never see or make use of splash"

 

When infact. all they're missing is a really easy concept that makes shooting easier - I had a chap go e-crazy on me on the CSR forum about how it was all irrelevant tosh and no use to anyone - but then subsequently revealed that he has a scope with a mil ret and MOA turrets; a combination that takes any simplicity away and puts maths back into 'dial what you see' ....and, in fact, has most people converting angular measurements to linear measurements and than back again, or running down to their targets with rulers and doing more maths ..... no wonder people who don't understand the utility can't 'see' the utility, and those who can't 'see' the utility don't try to understand the utility.

[ds1]

another big use of the FFP scope is using the reticule for lead on movers on any magnification, for tactical matches it is a big advantage over 2FP scopes. That of course may have bugger all to do with your application.

 

for a varminting rig, I honestly would put glass quality and scope mechanics first , ease of use and robustness. Much better to have a scope you can see through at dusk than not.

[brown dog]

another big use of the FFP scope is using the reticule for lead on movers on any magnification, for tactical matches it is a big advantage over 2FP scopes. That of course may have bugger all to do with your application.

 

 

Yes.... and the usable read across is that the same functionality also delivers measurable / accurate / repeatable kentucky windage at any & all magnifications.

 

for a varminting rig, I honestly would put glass quality and scope mechanics first , ease of use and robustness. Much better to have a scope you can see through at dusk than not.

 

Yup, but I don't understand why many see them as either/or options.

 

Nowadays you can 'have it all'

[ds1]

Agreed BD

 

a FFP reticule is an accurate ruler at all mags........2FP, just one mag.

[baldie]

What would be a good idea Matt, is a list of scopes in either MOA or MIL that actually have rets that match the turrets.

 

Folk could then make an easy choice.

[brown dog]

What would be a good idea Matt, is a list of scopes in either MOA or MIL that actually have rets that match the turrets.

 

Folk could then make an easy choice.

 

Dave, they're all over the place;

 

here's a random eg of a Sightrons with an MOA ret and MOA turrets:

 

http://www.aimfieldsports.com/siiiss-8-32x56-lrmoa-147-p.asp

http://www.aimfieldsports.com/siiiss-10-50x60-lrirmoa-141-p.asp

http://www.aimfieldsports.com/s-tac-25-175x56-irmoa-175-p.asp

 

or mil ret and mil turrets:

 

http://www.aimfieldsports.com/s-tac-25-175x56-irmh-174-p.asp

 

 

....even slow moving & antiquated Leupold have started to do it .....and started offering mil/mil and moa/moa as well as FFP:

 

http://www.leupold.com/hunting-shooting/scopes/mark-6-riflescopes/mark-6-3-18x44mm-m5b2-34mm/

 

 

March FFP moa/moa:

 

https://www.marchscopes.co.uk/index.php/en/site-map/march-f-fx/3x-24x42mm-moa

 

They're all over the place!

[DaddyPig]

A non under-stander will always be a non-under stander... Their willingness to learn over ridden by their pride or belief it's of no use to them.... ;-)

[Shuggy]

BD, this deserves to be a sticky as this subject seems to turn up every few months. For the record I am a target shooter, not a varminter (although I'd love to give that a try). However despite shooting at known distances, I still find FFP to be incredibly useful, mainly for the 'two shot zero' and accurate Kentucky windage.

 

The 'reticle too thick' thing is a myth, as long as you have a well designed reticle like the P4F on PMII scopes.

[Big Al]

On a much lighter note, it didnt take long to christen the new scope, 12x in the last light around 150yds.

 

ps, where's me other foot gone?

 

[Ballistic Hamster]

George. You must get out more!!!!! :)

would be nice for him ;-)))

[gbal]

would be nice for him ;-)))

Indeed,though I have been out occasionally in the past 50 odd years,sometimes with a firearm. :-)

 

Actually,just such an occasion occurred on Sunday,where I collected some data bearing on this F/S FP topic-and reported in another post. Briefly,if you can't see 'bullet splash' neither system can correct fall of shot,and often that limitations pertains in 'field' shooting.

 

 

Some factors bearing on visibility of splash were scope mag,and it's size is a function of bullet momentum/energy;and much less,construction,over a range of calibres;17 to 30,and ranges out to 750y were included.

 

All pretty much in line with 'grass roots' experience-indeed dislodging such substrata is a major factor.

 

gbal

[SWShooter]

Fascinating subject - bump.

[stephentri]

What would be a good idea Matt, is a list of scopes in either MOA or MIL that actually have rets that match the turrets.

 

Folk could then make an easy choice.

Kahles 624i

[Montey]

Just read this topic thanks BD it all makes sense, I never had much faith in the mill dot for ranging, I have a S&B pm52 in both first and second (both mill rads) so will be putting in some practice using, BD words of wisdom.

[gbal]

Whichever option makes most sense to you,there is no doubt at all that the mixing of units/measuring systems between reticule and turrets in a MAJOR BOO BOO.It matters little whether you use a MOA (inch) based scale or a 'metric' mil based one (here have been minor variants-true metric and 'mil' metric-it does not matter-so long as you know,and your scope system is consistent,ie both turrets and reticule are moa,or both are mil.BD is absolutely right that mixing the two-and its been done far too often-is a recipe for muddle and lots of quite complex translation between two measuring systems.Makes ' floor size in feet,carpet in metres' seem simple!

 

Consistency,consistency,consistency. With that,there are very minor plus and minus aspects to both systems,and these might nudge-not impel-a shooter to one rather than the other for a particular discipline,or shooting application. Also important,subjective preference,and experience. And it can help to be using the same system as other shooters-then data is readily shareable. (ditto cartridge-but neither are essentials).

 

One consistent absolute,then-consistency within your system.

 

gbal

[Sherlock]

I understand the difference but Im not sure how this would relate to varminting?

 

I would most likely do my ranging with a rangefinder or on the required mag of a SFP scope so I cant really see any advantage to FFP but as always Im open to be educated. Does having a wider reticule at higher mag have any advantages?

 

Im thinking about buying a Vortex Viper 6-24x50 PST.

 

 

Personally I prefer SSP scopes for LR varminting.

 

Reasons being, we are talking about relatively small targets , that can be at any range.

If feel accurate rangefinding is absolutely essential when you start to increase the distance of the shot. Therefore using a range finder is a absolute must for me. Rangefinding using the reticule is , at best , a guessimate and IMO will lead to more misses.

 

Secondly, The reticule in a lot of high mag FFP scope will cover small targets like magpies, pigeons. I have owned scopes where the target is completely hidden behind the vertical - Same is true when zeroing and the bull - or your bullets holes are obscured ---- not good.

 

and lastly - the £100 saving is a nice bonus.. It wasn't long back where some scopes charged extra for SSP.

 

 

ATB

S