Jump to content

Anyone using CNC turned bullets for long range shooting?


Major Disorder

Recommended Posts

MOD ranges won't allow the use of solid, or machine turned bullets as they don't deform upon impact and a low graze ricochet can carry a lot further, and potentially out of the RDA. Due to this, I don't think it would be very practical to use them.

 

Pete

Link to comment
Share on other sites

They have been used in the past. Mike Baillie-Hamilton developed some very long high-BC .30 designs some years back for 'Match Rifle'. There were alleged complaints by the Bisley markers of ricochets and the NRA banned the use of all monometal projectiles quite quickly. As Pete says, subsequent independent MoD led reviews of range safety areas which were prompted by the Army's adoption of the .338 Lapua Magnum as a sniper cartridge and some 'out of RDA incidents' led to the 4,500 Joules ME cap / HME zero rules which also saw these projectiles banned from 'ordinary' MoD ranges.

 

They are in very limited use for three purposes. General medium game shooting aside in areas such as California where traditional lead core bullets have been banned on environmental grounds, they are: pest hunters who want to preserve valuable fur pelts. (Barnes Bullets makes, or certainly used to make, some solid sharp pointed FB and BT models in smaller calibres for this purpose, but they'll be swaged from pure copper.) Dangerous African game / North American brown bear large calibre solids which are machined out of the harder copper alloys culminating in the use of what's metallugically described as 'naval bronze'. Finally, there are a few manufacturers of machined very pointy, very high BC, very long, bullets for both hunting and long-range specialist target, the latter mostly in .338 up to .50 calibres.

 

There's a German outfit LM (proprietor Lutz Moller) who did make them. His website looks rather threadbare and out of date now, so whether he's still in this business? There were some accusations too that he'd copied the work of a South African whose name I forget, but who is a leader in the field.

 

http://lutzmoeller.net/English/index.php

 

In any event, all of these boutique bullets are really expensive - make Berger Hybrids look like poor people's projectiles!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Greg Duley here gave the Cutting Edge projectiles a thorough workout in his huge Lunatic cases: 375, 400 and 425 grainers from memory. Just as Shawn Carlock reports, they'll put several shots in close at say 1500yds then out of the blue, you'll get a wild flyer. He gave up on them in the end.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks for the pointers. I ask as I have the opportunity to buy a job lot of them but maybe it's not worth it with the range restrictions in place. If I can get some samples (165g .308) would anyone care to trial some and report back? PM me if you're interested.

 

Cheers

 

Pete

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Vince Bottomley (The Gun Pimp) and I were given some 155 to 175gn (I think) samples five or more years back to try out, but never did after a bit of thinking about the issue. Apart from it being potentially a completely new ball game on pressures, these samples were pretty obviously based on conventional lead-core designs with a lengthened middle (bearing area) section to cope with the fact that an all-copper bullet of any given weight is a lot longer than its traditional lead core counterpart.

 

The thing about monometal bullets is that they need a different design approach to work, almost starting again from the ground up. Just copy existing match bullets and you'll likely end up with something that is poorly balanced in ballistic terms, generates far too much pressure unless it has the bearing surfaces relieved with grooves or driving bands, and may copper your barrel up so badly that you'll spend the next week feeding it a copper solvent diet. It took Barnes some years to perfect its swaged expanding designs, the triple relief bands being the key improvement.

 

Even if the trials worked out OK, where does it lead for anything other than specialist use in the 50s and suchlike? Bullets that'll cost £1 plus a time and which are banned on most ranges don't seem much use to me for target shooting. Even if, against the odds, they work out brilliantly and give a 20% BC improvement say over an equivalent Berger Hybrid, how long would it be before one's fellow competitors claimed 'unfair advantage' and had them banned?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Laurie, Vince and I got some samples at the shooting show three years ago but they too got discarded when I questioned the hardness of the material used in relation to the barrel steel and it was a little frightening when you considered the bore life. I was supplied with actual Rockwell hardness values and although I give credit to them for honesty, MY barrel never touched any of them! The fact they wont deform on the rifling either is as you say, a reason they need to be done very differently.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

South Africa produce both the Impala bullets and the GS Custom bullets and I have samples of both here in my collection, the Impala are somewhat crude and were given to me by a despairing stalker who put one into a Fallow which promptly strolled off, he was devastated as they have a good reputation in SA.

 

The GS custom are very different, superbly made and holding tolerances down to .0002" they are available with full load data as well. Gerard Schultz started the company which is now run by his daughter Gina who lives in the USA and they are both tremendous people to talk to. The monolithic bullets from GS come in many forms and are used for everything from small and big game to precision shooting plus other applications. Sadly Gerard and Gina cannot ship directly to the UK however there is a distributor in Europe.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Davy,

 

it was GS Custom / Gerard Schultz whose name I coudn't recall. The Moeller bullets were allegedly unlicensed knock-offs of GS designs - no personal knowledge of the issues or facts, so this may or may not have been true. In any event, there was a bit of name calling and finger pointing on some US forums some years back over the issue.

 

Monolithics got quite a bit of attention a few years back in forums and online blogs, but this is the first time I've seen the topic mentioned in a long time suggesting that interest has waned fror whatever reason. So far as ultra LR target shooting goes, I suspect it's the introduction of reasonably priced .338LM factory rifles and the effectiveness of the conventional gilding metal jacket / lead core 300gn Berger that has changed the debate on this subject.

 

By complete coincidence, there's a video of a couple of hits on an 18 x 24-inch steel target at 2,530 yards (1.43 miles) with a Savage 110 338LM firing 300gn Berger Hybrids on Today's Accurate Shooter Bulletin. The first hit is obviously sideways on the target making me wonder about stability, but on rewatching it, I reckon it hit the ground just in front of the target and ricoched into it.

 

Worth watching - a well done video.

 

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If my memory serves me well as the gun room at Lincoln making and selling these, I was given several packets when I bought one of those Iranian TRGs.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

i have one of lutz's 8mm bullets that des was going to build a rifle using until they got banned. i didn't like them to be honest and the design didn't seem great to me. mike's bullets were a far better design and seemed to be the way forward with these things, again until they got banned. super fast twists required and close tolerance land and groove diameters to suit the bullet diameter and driving band diameter..... mikes ones had crazy high bc's, but i'm not sure he was getting them to shoot accurately enough for my tastes.... i'd have gone down that road had they not banned them. he was getting them made for about a pound a bullet if memory serves me correctly. not that much more expensive than large .30 call heads now really.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Used LM 105's and GS LTS in the 338 when I had it - some interesting results - the 105's were under spun - I needed a gain twist 1-7 to stabilise them properly. (which I didn't have,,,)

 

The GS were very accurate - I had 20 given to me.

 

 

Theres a chap called Bernie Montana in the UK who also makes LTS which I've used in the 338 - again they worked fine.

 

I haven't tried anything smaller unless Barnes TSX count,,,,

Link to comment
Share on other sites

.... mikes ones had crazy high bc's, but i'm not sure he was getting them to shoot accurately enough for my tastes.... i'd have gone down that road had they not banned them. he was getting them made for about a pound a bullet if memory serves me correctly. not that much more expensive than large .30 call heads now really.

 

 

If I remember right, Mike told me they cost a packet when purchased in penny packet numbers, but that £1 a throw was possible if they proved successful and could be ordered in large numbers. But this conversation was in 2011 and we were even then talking about events of a year or two or more earlier. With the large increases in copper and other metal prices over the last five years £1 per bullet seems very low now.

 

(I sold off some unwanted 6mm expanding bullets last year and the shop's original prices on the labels still stuck on the box ends were an eye-opener as to how much bullet prices have risen over the last seven or eight years.)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

 

If I remember right, Mike told me they cost a packet when purchased in penny packet numbers, but that £1 a throw was possible if they proved successful and could be ordered in large numbers. But this conversation was in 2011 and we were even then talking about events of a year or two or more earlier. With the large increases in copper and other metal prices over the last five years £1 per bullet seems very low now.

 

(I sold off some unwanted 6mm expanding bullets last year and the shop's original prices on the labels still stuck on the box ends were an eye-opener as to how much bullet prices have risen over the last seven or eight years.)

yeah, that sounds about right. it was 2008 or there abouts that mike and me were chatting about it. yeah bullets seem crazy prices now. someone said the 30 cal 230's are 70 quid a hundered? ouch.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Besides the information above - GS is custom is the world leader in this regard and yes Loetz did create an unauthorised copy (ie theft)

 

http://www.gsgroup.co.za/07faq.html

some stunning articles - Gerard is an very knowledagle master gunsmith and does not make any statement that he cannot validate.

Some things he says may challenge you thinking - but remember this bullets have different features and elements when compared to traditional lead/jacket bullets and hence somethings are different

 

The GS They have 3 major designs

1. HV - An expanding hunting bullet with excellent bullet weight retention.

2. FN - Flatnose for heavy calibre and heavy game

3. SP - Spire Point - SP Long Range, VLD, Tactical and Match Bullets

 

Several principles regarding these bullets must be remember.

1. WEIGHT : Solid monolithic bullets are made of a copper alloy (SG 9.0+-) that has a lighter specific gravity compared to lead (11.0 +-)

this mean they are 20% light for the same bullet length .. so in 308 the the 135gn GS Custom is the length of the 155 gn etc.

2. BARREL TWIST : the longer bullets need a faster twist to stabilise. Think a spinning top versus spinning a pen to keep it stabilise what speeds would each object require.

3. SPEED : Because they use GS Custom Driving Bands - they have 25% of the friction area - meaning less energy is used to drive the bullets - ie more speed

4. UNIFORMITY : they are made on precision cnc machines to 3 micron tolerances - providing uniformity at a stellar level.

5. FLATTER TRAJECTORY : as a result of the speed gain exceeding the bullet weigh reduction combined with uniformity

 

What I found was that the GS Custom were stunning performers on game and paper.

http://www.gsgroup.co.za/galtimstewart.html

 

Could go on extensively ... so best ask more questions if you want and I will provide focussed answers.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Besides the information above - GS is custom is the world leader in this regard and yes Loetz did create an unauthorised copy (ie theft)

 

http://www.gsgroup.co.za/07faq.html

some stunning articles - Gerard is an very knowledagle master gunsmith and does not make any statement that he cannot validate.

Some things he says may challenge you thinking - but remember this bullets have different features and elements when compared to traditional lead/jacket bullets and hence somethings are different

 

The GS They have 3 major designs

1. HV - An expanding hunting bullet with excellent bullet weight retention.

2. FN - Flatnose for heavy calibre and heavy game

3. SP - Spire Point - SP Long Range, VLD, Tactical and Match Bullets

 

Several principles regarding these bullets must be remember.

1. WEIGHT : Solid monolithic bullets are made of a copper alloy (SG 9.0+-) that has a lighter specific gravity compared to lead (11.0 +-)

this mean they are 20% light for the same bullet length .. so in 308 the the 135gn GS Custom is the length of the 155 gn etc.

2. BARREL TWIST : the longer bullets need a faster twist to stabilise. Think a spinning top versus spinning a pen to keep it stabilise what speeds would each object require.

3. SPEED : Because they use GS Custom Driving Bands - they have 25% of the friction area - meaning less energy is used to drive the bullets - ie more speed

4. UNIFORMITY : they are made on precision cnc machines to 3 micron tolerances - providing uniformity at a stellar level.

 

What I found was that the GS Custom were stunning performers on game and paper.

http://www.gsgroup.co.za/galtimstewart.html

 

Could go on extensively ... so best ask more questions if you want and I will provide focussed answers

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't use them for particularly long range but use them for most hunting applications. The manufacturer that I use is SSM bullets in Austria http://www.ssm-bullets.com

 

 

they are without doubt the most precise bullets that I have ever seen and are superbly accurate and extremely hard hitting. Like a Barnes only they work and are beautifully made. Once imported they work out at a quid a pop though so a tad on the expensive side!

 

cheers

 

Rich

Link to comment
Share on other sites

.... Like a Barnes only they work..

 

 

That's a tad OTT.

You'd get plenty of argument about that assertion out here. TTSXs are the go-to bullet for many NZ deershooters including myself

Link to comment
Share on other sites

i have one of lutz's 8mm bullets that des was going to build a rifle using until they got banned.

 

For info', if anyone is interested, I'll soon be selling off the 8mm F-class Supergun project.

Seeing as I only shoot on approved ranges, for me the project is at an end, which is great shame as it seemed the way forward.

PM me for details.

 

Cheers,

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Many years ago i tried the 7mm Lutz ( 162g I think ) with the driving bands , still got the results somewhere as a reminder of how groups shouldn't look . Also tried the 7mm J40 Lost river which i think were 17?g which showed promise for five or six rounds and then turned awful .

 

OSOK

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As all jacketed lead core bullets are not created equal, all turned and monometallic bullets are not created equal. With monos there are also different manufacturing methods, materials and different designs and bullets built for different purposes. Just as one cannot take results with a particular brand and style of jacketed lead core bullet and say that all cup and core bullets are like that, one cannot use a particular brand of mono and transfer results to all other monos.

 

When a manufacturer has been in business for a long time and continually expands to other regions and it's range of bullets, it is doing something right. Results are what the users expect, given their particular application.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It would be lovely to have a UK supplier of GS bullets Gerard….

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I order my GS Custom bullets from Johan at Tiemens & Tiemens in the Netherlands. He is a good person to deal with and Gerard at GS Custom itself is always prompt to reply to emails.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks David,

 

I spotted the NL supplier in the last few minutes browsing the GS site.

 

I'll give them a try, the Barnes TSX I used to use differ lot to lot in quality and accuracy - which is a PITA

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use and Privacy Policy