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The best long range 223 rem bullet


Redshift

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My other half shoots a rem223 out to 1000yds, she has been using 80g smk bullets, I wondered if there is a better bullet that she could use? The rifle is a rem 700 with a border 28" 8" twist barrel.

 

Redshift

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Hi mate,

 

The 75 and 80 grain AMax have a higher BC then the Sierra, then you also have the 75 and 80 grain Berger VLD's with even higher BC's.

 

 

Steve.

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Steve's suggestions are worth a try.The best BC 223 bullets so far,are the 90 g -MK(.504)and JLK,eg but their achilles heel is that they need 1 in 7 twists...

My compliments to your good lady,1000 is a long way for a 223,but it is possible,and pleasant to shoot,and not without satisfactions.But one of these will not be success against other cartridges-many of us don't care,some might,but if they do,reality tends to intrude.

There is a long and detailed discussion between myself and Laurie on this-"223 loads for a Tikka 1 in 8twist" starting 2nov 2013,post *41. I don't think much has changed.Laurie has shown that the 223 can be competitive,my point was that when it is-with an exceptional shooter and equipment/prep etc-it is rather despite the cartridge than because of its promise-though it can be a much better performer than it is sometimes given credit for.I think we agreed in the end it is not the cartridge of choice for the aspiring competition shooter,though a very decent club performer which is quite benign on almost every criterion,one being that it will give the 308 a run for it's money at that level and at the more common shorter ranges while being easy on the shooter,shoulder and pocket!

( most of us don't want to go down the competitive road-but it's handy to bear in mind why some cartridges will not keep up with the best....under ordinary conditions.To equal the best 6.5s -let alone the even better hot 7mms- the 224 needs a 90g bullet,BC .502,and mv 3270 fps,and that is asking an awful lot-Laurie might be tempted to comment,but I seem to remember he had 90g VLDs at just over 2900fps-not at all shabby,and he had successes-but his skill applied to a ballistically superior cartridge would probably have delivered just as much-though we have to allow for the sheer shootability of the smaller cartridge-which is in reality quite important to many shooters.

Pleasure,and satisfaction are all relative,for most normals-I'd get more such from hitting a 15 inch gong at 1000y 7 out of 10,with a 223,than I would with a match shehane getting 10/10 hits.Not sure about dropping to 3 hits with the 223,though.....(all assumes fair conditions,sighters etc).

Gbal

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Based on an older thread featuring the experts on here, I bought some 77gn Berger Target BT. Load development was tricky as they seem to shoot well regardless of powder weight or seating depth but I now have a load that consistently goes through the same hole at 100m and rarely misses a 10 inch gong at 800m (the furthest I can shoot without a long drive).

 

Your other half's rifle may like something else but they are definitely worth a try.

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For an eight-inch twist, my choice nowadays would be the Berger 80.5gn LR BT FULLBORE, one designed specifically for use in .223 Rem in Palma and some countries' F/TR rules that limit the .223 to 'bullets weighing less than 81gn' (matching the .308 equivalent of must use 'bullets weighing less than 156gn').

 

The 80.5gn has a G7 BC of 0.234 which puts it in exactly the same ballpark as the best of the 0.308" 155s, the 155.5gn Berger at 0.237 for instance and well above that of the original 155gn Sierra MK which is loaded in the NRA's RWS ammo of 0.214, also just beating the newer ballistically improved 155gn Sierra 'Palma' MK at 0.229. By comparison, Sierra's 80gn 0.224" SMK which your other half is currently using, an excellent but elderly design now, is a smaller calibre match to the company's older 155gn 308 at 0.217.

 

To be ballistically competitive against 308s shooting modern 155s, you need the 80.5gn and MVs that match those achieved in the larger calibre, that is 3,000 fps, better still a bit more. That should present few problems with a 28-inch barrel as the 223 doesn't gain much additional velocity from 30s and above unlike the .308 Win. I have seen the 80.5gn pushed up to ~3,200 fps in an F/TR rifle, but that's really pushing it to and likely beyond sensible limits! 3,050-3,100 fps should be possible coupled to small groups, the biggest potential hurdle being the small primer extruding back into the Remington 700's firing pin hole in the bolt-face before you reach maximum pressures. It's essential to use an SR Magnum primer with its thicker, stronger cup, if you don't do so already. The CCI-450 SRM is the best choice if you can find any in stock anywhere. The ideal powder for the 80.5 LR BT remains H. VarGet too, which is another 'problem' given there isn't any to be had and there won't be for at least a year maybe more.

 

The 80.5 Berger will make the rifle more competitive at 1K, but not in F/TR against the heavier .308s such as the 185gn Berger 'Juggernaut' at 2,850 fps and 200gn and up BTs and new Berger Hybrids. To be fully competitive you need a 90gn model and there are all sorts of issues and potential pitfalls in using the uber-heavy which makes it a much riskier proposition to have a rifle built and set up just for it. In any event, your other half's 1-8" twist rate won't stabilise any of the 90s, of which there is now just a single model available (occasionally at that) anyway in the UK, the Berger VLD. 1-7.5" is the minimum and 1-7" better.

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Thanks for the replies,

I'll give the Bergers a go ( if I can find some) we are just club shooters so being ultra competitive is not a must, I just like to think I'm supplying Clare with the best ammo that I can, so she has at least half a chance.

I've not had chance to chrono the load she uses at the moment ( 25.6g varget) but it does ok, we use rem71/2 primers but I have a stash of 450's that I use in my dasher so I will give it a go. The only problem is a lack of varget so I'll try re15 ( got loads) or I've got a few kg's of n550. I'll fire up the quickload to see what it says.

 

Thanks again

 

Redshift

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That pair should work well. I'd start with Re15. Another possibility is IMR-4895 which should remain available and is well suited to that combination.

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90's are too heavy and too much bullet for a .223.

No matter which way you look at it, an 80 will always beat a 90. You just can't drive them fast enough to see any advantage.

The best bullet I have come across is the JLK 80

 

25.6gns Varget is way too hot though and you might want to rethink that

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90's are too heavy and too much bullet for a .223. No matter which way you look at it, an 80 will always beat a 90. You just can't drive them fast enough to see any advantage.

 

 

Quite wrong! While your statement is correct for an 18-20 inch barrel AR type rifle, it's way out for a single-shot long-range bolt action job built and chambered for the 223 with 'heavies'.

 

2,900 fps plus is available from a 30-inch barrel F/TR rifle with the 90gn JLK and Berger VLDs, 40-50 fps less from the now discontinued 90gn Berger LR BT using Re15. VarGet produces a little less. I suspect that Commonside Firearms' Swiss El-N130 high-energy powder will produce higher MVs than either Re15 or VarGet with both 80s and 90s in the cartridge, and I'll either prove or disprove that gut feeling over the next two to three weeks in my old 28-barrel F/TR with its 1-7" twist and chambered for 90s at ~2.700" COAL.

 

The 80.5gn Berger LR BT has the highest average G7 BC of any 80 on the market, albeit we're talking small increments here. To match the 90gn Berger VLD's 2,900 fps MV wind performance at 1,000 yards under standard ballistic conditions, the 80.5 has to be driven at 3,370 fps MV. This bullet WILL perform well at 1,000, Adam Bagnall several times GB F/TR league champion prefers this bullet to the 90s for ease of tuning, and has shot a 'possible' with it at over 3,100 fps MV at either 900 or 1,000 on Stickledown, I forget which.

 

Like the old 80gn Sierra MK, the 80.5gn Berger is a tangent ogive design which makes it much easier to tune than most VLDs in most rifles. Incidentally, Brian Fox has dropped JLKs after a great deal of trouble, expense and work involved to actually get any supplies at all to this country, and never in fact received any 7mm bullets from them. Unless somebody else picks up this marque, the only way of getting them will be through the direct export US agents - assuming of course that they can get any given the current supply v demand situation in the US.

 

 

25.6gns Varget is way too hot though and you might want to rethink that

 

 

Strange! The Sierra handloading manual, not a publication noted for advising on the limit loads pressure-wise, lists 25.3gn Varget for the 80gn Sierra MK at 2,900 fps in its '223 Remington (Bolt Action') data section. True, it's rather lower at 24.0gn in the AR-15 section, but that's back to the issue of how the rifle has been chambered and the usable COAL given the freebore machined in.

 

Another major issue with this little cartridge affecting pressures and performance is choice of case and its capacity. There is a huge disparity in case builds and resulting internal capacity. Sierra uses Federal in its data and this make is usually thick-walled / low capacity. For precision long-range use, the current Lapua .223 Rem 'Match' case is the one to use holding a grain to 1.5gn more water than some around. Winchester is another 'roomy' make, but not as strong or consistently made as the Lapua model.

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Sorry to hijack this thread; I've got a bog standard Remy 700 PSS in 223 with a 1 in 9 twist. Ive never gone heavily than 69 grain SMKs, but have wondered whether there was any possibility of stabilising 75 grain A-Max's? Is that vaguely possible or very unlikely?

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Sorry to hijack this thread; I've got a bog standard Remy 700 PSS in 223 with a 1 in 9 twist. Ive never gone heavily than 69 grain SMKs, but have wondered whether there was any possibility of stabilising 75 grain A-Max's? Is that vaguely possible or very unlikely?

73g is the usual quoted max for 1 in 9-I know it's close,but there has to be a cut off where stability is compromised.Some nominal 1 in 9 twists could be actual 1 in 8 3/4,which might help,some might be 1 in 91/4,which won't.I daresay all Rem 700(PSS) might not be identical...and different rifles -of varied makes-might just work "acceptably"-or not.The only way really is to try a few and see...but the odds are against it.

("acceptable" of course begs questions....good enough to down Fig 11s at 800 yards,or further,or good enough to shoot sub moa groups at that distance,or keep shots in the eight ring etc. As has been all too obvious already here,different disciplines-each completely legitimate in themselves-have different criteria,standards,requirements,and performance envelopes.Hunting has a few more all it's own too-penetrating paper won't be enough. It would minimise handbagging * if we could be more specific......

Gbal

 

* Gucci,snakeskin,gold clasp with emerald inserts,Harrods,£7500 guineas :-)

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Just to clear a few points up, the barrel was chambered long, the col with a 80smk is 2.560 with a 20th jump ( this was done to use the 80g amax but when we bought the bullets for the rifle it was when the debate over amax not being a target bullet was going on so we played safe)

We also use lapua cases.

When we started load testing, we started at 24g of varget, we have shot a higher load but the grouping disappears, so a guess we are outside of a node.

The load we use has been shot in 90 deg temps with no problems.

My own 223 ( tikka based with a border barrel 8 twist) but with a shorter freebore is normally .5g behind Clare's remmy.

 

Redshift

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Mike.

 

The 75gn A-Max in a 9-inch twist is a hardy perennial on this and other forums. All we can say is that it sometimes works and sometimes doesn't - the twist rate v bullet length is really marginal.

 

If you stick '75gn AMax' or similar into the search box, you'll get lots of threads that discuss this bullet including several from people saying it just won't shoot well for them even in an eight-inch twist barrel. The two heavy A-Maxs, 75 and 80gn, seem to either do very well in individual barrels or very poorly. When I shot a 223 with a Lilja eight-inch twist barrel and Wylde chamber, it did very well with the 75gn, but never shot worth a damn with the 80 no matter what powder I tried.

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Sorry to hijack this thread; I've got a bog standard Remy 700 PSS in 223 with a 1 in 9 twist. Ive never gone heavily than 69 grain SMKs, but have wondered whether there was any possibility of stabilising 75 grain A-Max's? Is that vaguely possible or very unlikely?

 

FWIW I tried some 75 Amax in my 1-9 Tac 30 built by Neil Mckillop.

 

It was embarrassing to say the least :blush: I only tried it for a laugh, I manage to hit some A4 at 100m but that was about all. I left the mod off ;)

 

ATB

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Just to clear a few points up, the barrel was chambered long, the col with a 80smk is 2.560 with a 20th jump ( this was done to use the 80g amax but when we bought the bullets for the rifle it was when the debate over amax not being a target bullet was going on so we played safe)

We also use lapua cases.

When we started load testing, we started at 24g of varget, we have shot a higher load but the grouping disappears, so a guess we are outside of a node.

The load we use has been shot in 90 deg temps with no problems.

My own 223 ( tikka based with a border barrel 8 twist) but with a shorter freebore is normally .5g behind Clare's remmy.

 

Redshift

 

 

Right, that's a good LONG leade. The current nominally 95gn weight Lapua 'Match' case usually has ~30.5gn water capacity when fireformed to a minimum SAAMI match chamber.

 

Here's what QuicklOAD calculates for this set-up in a 28-inch barrel.

 

Cartridge : .223 Rem.

Bullet : .224, 80, Sierra HPBT LR MatchK 9390

Useable Case Capaci: 27.896 grain H2O = 1.811 cm³

Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.560 inch = 65.02 mm

Barrel Length : 28.0 inch = 711.2 mm

Powder : Hodgdon VARGET

 

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,

incremented in steps of 1.0% of nominal charge.

CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

 

Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time

% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms

 

-10.0 93 23.04 2692 1288 42848 5898 96.8 1.407

-09.0 94 23.30 2719 1313 44200 5956 97.1 1.388

-08.0 95 23.55 2746 1339 45594 6012 97.4 1.370

-07.0 96 23.81 2773 1365 47033 6066 97.7 1.351

-06.0 97 24.07 2799 1392 48519 6119 98.0 1.333

-05.0 98 24.32 2826 1418 50052 6169 98.3 1.316

-04.0 99 24.58 2852 1445 51634 6217 98.5 1.298

-03.0 100 24.83 2878 1472 53268 6263 98.7 1.281 ! Near Maximum !

-02.0 101 25.09 2905 1499 54955 6307 99.0 1.264 ! Near Maximum !

-01.0 102 25.35 2931 1526 56698 6348 99.1 1.248 ! Near Maximum !

+00.0 103 25.60 2957 1553 58498 6388 99.3 1.232 ! Near Maximum !

+01.0 104 25.86 2983 1581 60359 6425 99.5 1.216 ! Near Maximum !

+02.0 105 26.11 3009 1608 62281 6460 99.6 1.200 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

+03.0 106 26.37 3035 1636 64268 6493 99.7 1.185 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

+04.0 107 26.63 3061 1664 66323 6523 99.8 1.170 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

+05.0 108 26.88 3086 1692 68448 6551 99.9 1.155 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

 

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge

Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:

+Ba 103 25.60 3064 1668 68658 6174 100.0 1.157 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:

-Ba 103 25.60 2806 1399 48539 6334 95.1 1.331

 

 

So, if the model is correct - and it's usually reasonably close for .223 Rem in my experience - you're where you should be at just under 58,500 psi giving you near max performance with a bit of slack, and you should obtain the sort of minimum velocities needed for 1,000 at ~2,950 fps.

 

This will give almost identical ballistic performance to the NRA's RWS 155gn .308 Win ammo in a typical 30-inch barrel TR rifle, just keeping it supersonic at this distance. Bryan Litz's PMII G7 program says 1,190 fps and a shade under 10-MOA drift in a 10 mph crosswind at 1K. If you do find the higher BC 80.5gn Berger LR BT and get it to shoot well at similar velocities, you get a useful additional 70 fps at 1,000 which keeps it out of the worst of the transonic zone speed bracket and reduces the wind drift by around 10%.

 

FWIW, the old 80 SMK is a very forgiving design at trans and subsonic speeds. I used to shoot an SGC SSR-15 with a 26-inch barrel in the dawn of F-Class in the UK wirh a much milder load of VarGet or Re15 than yours. I didn't know the MV as I didn't have a chronograph then, but suspect ~2,600-2,650 fps. I hit the target every shot at this distance, often nowhere near the middle mind you (and we used the TR 2-MOA five-ring centre and huge frame back in those pioneering days, so that doesn't say as much as it seems!), but the biggest problem was marking as the subsonic bullet whispered through the frame, left tiny holes, and the butts team can't see the strikes on the backstop at Diggle.

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I have found 24.5 gr of Varget behind the 80vld to be at the limit with seriously flattened rem71/2 primers.

 

 

Case and COAL? Jammed or jumped?

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So my .223 is a 30" Lilja 3-groove 7 twist barnard. Lapua H2O is 30.83gr.

 

Back in the days of VarGet it loved the 80gr A-Max (0.25 MOA) with 26.2gr for 2950 fps at a COAL of 2.58". ES sub 20fps.

 

It also seems to like 80gr Berger VLDs jammed into the lands.

 

I've got a few new powders to play with (including a sample of Ei-Niesen 130) but I don't want to start any load development now because I think the barrel is starting to go downhill now at 1500 rounds.

 

I'd attribute this to putting a fair bit (now onto the 2nd kg) of N550 through this barrel. Perhaps I'm imagining it but with a nylon brush the first 3-4 inches of rifling literally feel rough as you push it through. Need a borescope really.

 

Like a lot of people I spent a lot of the time trying to get the 90s (Berger/JLK) to shoot and I'd describe them as temperamental. I've had cloverleafs at 200 and 2 inch groups at 200. When the barrel was new they were better but now it's worn I just get all sorts of flyers and once didn't seem to make it to the target at 1000.

 

Typical loads with 90s were 27.2 gr N550 for 2900fps.

 

Also recently been shooting 80s with 28.8gr N550 for 3100fps (about 62 kpsi from QL). 28 MOA to 1000. Had a very calm day recently and at 1000 the 2 and 10 was sub MOA elevation.

 

The whole thing has definitely been a learning experience but, I think for peace of mind on a new barrel I'll just have it for throated for something like the 80.5 or 82 berger, use a single base powder like TR140 and only try to be competitive at closer ranges (maybe 8/900 on a favourable day). Although if this Ei-Niesen 130 works out I'll probably be tempted to use that and then wonder why I need another replacement barrel in 1500 rounds.

 

Let the the 308 do the long range stuff, so much easier to tune/keep the vertical down.

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Hi mate,

 

The 75 and 80 grain AMax have a higher BC then the Sierra, then you also have the 75 and 80 grain Berger VLD's with even higher BC's.

 

 

Steve.

If you can get hold of any , There becoming rare fast !

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Henry.

 

I'd agree with your experiences and conclusions. 90s and Re15 /N550 max loads probably produce a 1,750 to 2,000 round barrel life then an elevation flier or two three per match starts to appear at long ranges.

 

There are still some in the US using the cartridge at all distances, but a lot of people now consider it as good as .308 Win, better even, to 600 yards shooting the 80gn VLDs and 80.5 Berger, but switch to 308 for the long distance matches.

 

Bob Pitcairn, a Canadian TR / Palma shooter and member of their national team for these disciplines is still apparently a fan, but he uses Viht N150 and has found a sweet spot ~2,850 fps in the lighter profile barrels these guys and girls use in TR with the Berger VLD.

 

Here's a copy of an article he had published in the DCRA's house journal, The Canadian Rifleman

 

http://docs.google.com/document/d/1ciq6KAcNmdwZHTNNKlov81qb2di4KFNDSw9pmTMYb0w/edit?pli=1#

 

He went for a shorter freebore than I did at 0.160". Dave Kiff has developed a 223 match reamer based on the development work that he and Bob Pitcairn did called the .223 Rem ISSF drawing number 40380 with a 0.169" leade and 1 deg 30 min throat angle. This provides a good compromise for those who want to try 90s but still have the chamber work well with most 80s. I have this reamer, but won't use it until I have to put another barrel on my F/TR 223.

 

I have a second mid-range 223 throated with my original quarter-inch freebore which was developed as an 'affordable club comp F/TR rifle'. This is an off the shelf Savage 12 Long Range Precision Varminter originally in .204 Ruger and rebarrelled with a standard Palma profile 1-7.5 inch twist rate Bartlein 4 groove. The barrel was cropped to the Savage's original 26 inches when it was put on - no sense in producing an over muzzle heavy rifle and overtaxing the H-S Precision synthetic sporter stock. It shoots very well indeed with the 90gn Berger LR BT at ~2,650 fps using Viht N150, and I'd expect barrel life to be very good with this combination. I'm about to see if I can get the 80.5 BT to shoot as well as the 90 BT and if so will sell it as is with a working load.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Why not use 22-250?

 

Serious question, so be kind if it is an obvious answer!

 

I often see discussions about pushing x .224 bullet to y speed from .223, but never know why people don't use 22-250 to get more powder and pace?

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