CCI 450 v BR-4 Primers

[Brillo]

I shoot a 6.5x47L and a 6mmBr rifle and I'm migrating to .308 small primer Lapua cases for my .308 rifle. Could someone explain what is the absolute difference between CCI 450 and BR-4 primers?

Thanks

[DaveT]

As far as I am aware its down to more stringent QC in the manufacturing process and perhaps harder cups?

 

Does this lead to more reliability / consistency?...........Only results will show (as maybe less stringing).....hard to measure unless its significant.

 

Not aware of any upgrade in the explosive mixture but others may have more knowledge.

[gbal]

 

cup thickness

 

CCI 450 .025

BR4 .025

 

Rem 71/2 .025

Fed 205M .0225

 

CCI 400 .02

Fed 200 .019

 

 

There are slight cup diameter/height differences. (These are all in :

Primers and Pressure by James Calhoun Varmint Hunter,Oct 1995.

(as he says,difficult to measure cup hardness-manufacturers data might give it)

 

LR are all makes .027

A very detailed history of primers ,and firing results ,with general conclusions is by German Salazar in june 2008 Precision Shooting(including flash size,hardness and velocity-is there a 'best'?)

 

CCI 450 are 'magnum' labelled,CCI BR4 are 'bench rest',and maybe higher quality control

 

OK,while helpful -thick cup is the general consensus for 6BR and 6.5 x47,and 308 palma brass- actual shooter experience will be needed,though I would not expect consistent large differences between the thick cup options.Mild loads might get away with the thinner/softer cups,but why risk it?

 

Gbal

[Laurie]

In my experience, the BR4 is not the 450 given a greater degree of factory inspection. In the days when I loaded .223 Rem with 90gn VLDs, BR4s produced 30-40 fps higher MVs than either CCI-450s or PMC (Russian Murom) SR Magnums and accompanying higher pressures. That was equivalent to increasing the powder charge by 0.3 to 0.4gn in the cartridge, a lot in this small number. Moreover, ES and SD values doubled over the other two and groups increased substantially. Reducing powder charge weights to bring the pressures / MVs back to those of the 450 / PMC didn't reduce the ES / SD sizes nor improve groups particularly. The only conclusion is that in those particular manufacturing batches at least, the BR4 was a considerably 'hotter' model, one that was a bit too aggressive for .223 Rem. Posts on AccurateShooter from US .223 Rem precision shooters generally reflect this view.

 

It would also seem that the BR4 is a bit too powerful for 6mm BR and BRDX, Dasher etc charge weights that run from around 29/30gn in the standard cartridge to maybe 33gn in the 'improved' Dasher versions, as it is never recommended, the CCI-450 being the primer of choice here.

 

I've kept my BR4s and use them exclusively in .308 Win Lapua Palma brass loads. Their characteristics apparently suit this number with its heavier powder charge that needs a bit more heat or flame duration. H4895 or 8208 XBR loads around the 46gn level give very small ES / SD values with 155s over these primers.

 

6.5X47L charges fall between 223 / 6BR and .308, but nearer the latter, so the BR4 may well be a good number here. I use the Rem 7.5BR in the cartridge which is also what I used to use in 6mm BR and am very happy with the results. It has a slightly softer brass cup than the CCIs which is an issue if you have cratering / piercing issues due to bolt / firing pin fit.

 

Incidentally, I've heard it said a few times, and had it confirmed in a PM from an AccurateShooter Forum member who used to work in the plant, that CCI-200 standard LR and CCI-BR2 match primers ARE identical in both specification and manufacturing processes, the match version given a higher degree of inspection and/or performing a little better in batch testing.

[DaveT]

Laurie

 

Wish I had seen your post before I bought my BR4s!

 

I load for many other calibres but am just about to start loading for 223 Rem for the first time..... and it seems I should have bought standard CCI Small Rifle primers.

 

Bugger!

[Laurie]

Laurie

 

Wish I had seen your post before I bought my BR4s!

 

I load for many other calibres but am just about to start loading for 223 Rem for the first time..... and it seems I should have bought standard CCI Small Rifle primers.

 

Bugger!

 

 

Well, give them a try - they might work OK in your loads. Incidentally, I'd never advise using standard SR primers in .223 Rem, or at any rate not for those using most factory rifles. Their cups are too thin and weak. The SR primer was designed for small, relatively low pressure cartridges typified by the .22 Hornet, and .218 Bee. They just manage OK in factory .222 Rem rifles, but often crater very badly or worse in .223 Rem Remy 700s, straight-pull AR-15s and similar where there is a bit of a gap around the firing pin in the bolt-face.

 

Remington used to include words to the effect of 'use our 7.5 Magnum primers in modern high pressure cartridges'. Before my bench rest shooting friends get too hot under the collar, standard SR primers usually work great in the PPC and similar in rifles built around custom actions that use small diameter firing pins that are a really neat fit in the bolt allied to very strong bolt mainsprings.

[gbal]

Laurie

 

Wish I had seen your post before I bought my BR4s!

 

I load for many other calibres but am just about to start loading for 223 Rem for the first time..... and it seems I should have bought standard CCI Small Rifle primers.

 

Bugger!

Dave, maybe it will work out that way,but Accurate Shooter site says BR4 can work -not really better,just a more expensive choice! But since you have them,all is not lost yet-generally-some small rifle can work fine-at least with below max loads,I've used Fed205 and Rem71/2(ditto 222,though I used only Rem 71/2 in the 17rem)

G

[Laurie]

FWIW, Remington still has the advice re 6.5 v 7.5BR, although you've got to dig around on its website a little.

 

http://remington.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/167/kw/primers/session/L3RpbWUvMTMzMDE4MDM5Ni9zaWQvdUQ3Y09BUms%3D

 

This answer also doesn't say why, which isn't too helpful for those unaware of the issues.

[Laurie]

Dave, maybe it will work out that way,but Accurate Shooter site says BR4 can work -not really better,just a more expensive choice! But since you have them,all is not lost yet-generally-some small rifle can work fine-at least with below max loads,I've used Fed205 and Rem71/2(ditto 222,though I used only Rem 71/2 in the 17rem)

G

 

 

George,

 

the F205 and Rem 7-1/2 aren't standard SR primers. the F205 used to be Federal's 'magnum' version years back when the company made a standard version too. At one time, F205 cartons were marked as 'Small Rifle Magnum'. Today, the company only makes two models for its handloading components range: the GM205M (Gold Medal Small Rifle Match), and GM205AR (a special version for semi-auto AR-15s, presumably with a harder cup to avoid slamfires and primer cup piercing in these rifles).

 

The Rem 7-1/2 is this company's SR Magnum, nowadays as with Federal only listed in 'BR' / match form. An old friend bought a new Remington 700 PSS maybe 10 years ago and was generally delighted by the rifle and cartridge for short-range target work with one reservation. He asked me on the range one day what was wrong with his handloads showing a collection of fired cases with very badly cratered primers, almost at the pierced point. He was naturally concerned that this was a sign of seriously overloaded cartridges despite his loads being well below Viht's maximum weights. Asking what primers he was using produced the information that it was CCI-400 and Rem 6-1/2 working on the usual advice to stick to standard primers for standard loads unless ball powders were used or other special considerations. A change to SRM / BR primers effected a complete cure. I've met several people since with the same problem and continue to do on an irregular basis given the popularity of .223 and the Remington P, SPS, and VS rifles for new shooters and handloaders.

 

Another one to watch out for here is the PMC (Murom) standard SR primer with a very deep copper colour cup. They're still to be found around long after other models imported by York Guns years back were sold out, for this reason. I found them to be the 'softest of all', OK in .22H but nigh on 50% piercing in a .223R SSR-15 straight-pull with loads that were anything above the halfway mark between starting and max loads in handloading manuals. A quick and easy way to ruin a firing pin followed by the bolt body! Conversely, the PMC SRM with a nickel plated cup is my SRM of choice for small size cartridges and I've kept my remaining stock reserved for hot .223 Rem 90gn bullet loads. They give near identical ballistics in .223R to the CCI-450 SRM, but have a slightly tougher cup - important to me as my LR .223 rifle uses a Savage 12 PTA action which doesn't have as fine a firing pin fit as a good custom action, although a lot better than those in many Remy 700s you come across.

[gbal]

Hi Laurie,

Thanks for the detail-I hope I didn't use 'standard/magnum' for the Rem 71/2s.I've been using Rem7I/2 since 1984 i the 17Rem-I think they always came in the same orange and green boxes,labelled 'small rifle bench rest primers',and Rem were very clear that they should be used in the 17rem,though I don't recall ever seeing them refered to as 'magnum' on their boxes.Never used rem 61/2 at all.I have used the Rem 71/2 in 222,and 223,and seem OK.In the 70s I used lots of Vihtavouri small rifle-I recall they were rather coppery coloured-but have no further details,they were good too,in 222.

My last lot of Fed Gold Medal Match Small Rifle GM205M are in a white box,with dark blue flash on one side,and thin blue lines,horizontally.But my most recent batch of 'GM205M',Federal Premium Small Rifle Match Primers,are in red,black and gold boxes. Maybe you know if the move from 'GoldMedal' to "Premium' means anything,or not!

(while we are at it,how do the Federal 'Champion" Large Rifle 210 primers compare to the previous 'Gold Medal Match'(these latter 210M,I think, in the blue/white striped box....?

 

Thankfully,managed to survive without the added complexity of the russian varieties,though some of their Small Rifle primers might well be in Barnaul/Wolf loaded 223?

 

Simples,really -compared to the 'rose by any other name' that some powders have gone through-my last 1/4 tin of Nobel 2 is next to become history!

George

[DaveT]

My apologies to the OP as we seem to have completely hijacked his post BUT ....hopefully its interesting to BRILLO as well!

 

I am going to be loading for a straight-pull AR15 ( a complete departure from my usual bolt-guns) so thought I was doing the right thing by getting CCI BR4s for a harder cup ...is there a clearly recommended primer for AR15s?

[Brillo]

Many thanks guys. Not only has the question been answered but the thread has given lots of really use additional information. It's made me rethink my choice of primers, but I'll have to use up my BR-4s first.

[Laurie]

I think we've answered the OP's question. Both will do fine for both cartridges. It's also worth noting that nearly all of the GB F/TR team use Lapua Palma cases and most use Federal GM205M primers despite their slightly thinner, hence softer cups. I don't know any particular reason why the Federal has this status apart from the fact that its GM210M LR big brother has been THE favourite 308 large primer in standard brass for most long-range competition shooters for a long time, so it'd be natural to choose a small model from the same stable in the absence of any better information.

 

Seriously, I'd try the CCI-BR4s in your straight-pull. In my case, I was indulging in some seriously finicky handloading - getting 90gn VLDs to 2,900 fps plus in the .223 Rem while delivering 0.25-MOA precision and single-figure SD values takes a lot of work, everything perfect, and every component perfectly matched. Without being in any way rude (as an ex SSR owner myself), you won't be looking for a 1,000 yard combination that can hold its own in national, even international F-Class matches. (I tell others who ask not to bother unless they want to get stress induced ulcers, or simply can't resist a handloading challenge!)

 

The Americans are in a slightly different boat from us with the AR - having gas operation makes it a different beast in many respects, not least of which is that they can and do run some pretty high pressure loads since they don't have to yank the case out of the chamber without any turnbolt action primary extraction cam-action, and using your good left hand. So, they have a bunch of tough, low sensitivity milspec primers that also reduce the risks of slamfires, and that's what most serious US High-Power Service Rifle shooters use these days. We don't get them here. The Winchester SR model used to be another US favourite at one time when it was silver colour (nickel plated), and that's what I used for a long time in my SSR. The word is that Winchester made a change and the current brass colour jobs are 'softer' - I don't know, but there are plenty of CSR shooters on this forum who will. I used Rem 7-1/2BRs after silver Winchesters disappeared, in fact ALL Winchester primers disappeared in an earlier primer drought, and found them OK. Another model that I used a lot and very happily, but which isn't seen a lot was the CBC Magtech 7-1/2, a Brazilian product that Viking Arms used to import, maybe still does. Basically, you should find anything other than the CCI-400, Rem 6-1/2, and aforementioned PMC standard SR model will suit. Since Edgar Brothers lost the Remington franchise, that outfit has started importing Italian Fiocchi ammo and components including primers. I don't know whether its SR is a thin or thick cup job. (Fiocchi LR primers have so far worked out fine for me in .308 with limited trials.)

[DaveT]

Thanks Laurie.... I will give the BR4s a go and see what happens......as you say I do not need benchrest accuracy for CSR!