Ballistic software & MOA question

[redding]

Hi

Just started using Shooter Ballistics.

The program gives you the option to adjust your scope to account for the "clicks" not being exactly say 1/4" or 1/4 moa

 

This is what I am getting at:

 

Elevation Correction - This is used to correct for scope turret clicks that aren't quite what they say
they are. If you've come to realize your .25MOA per-click scope is actually .23MOA per-click then
you'd put a correction factor of 1.08695652 (.25/.23) because you actually need to adjust more as
you aren't quite getting a full quarter MOA per click.

 

So say your elevation solution for a 500yd shot is 12MOA and you have the correction factor of 1.08695652.

Shooter will multiply 12 by 1.08695652 to give you 13.04MOA. So even though the real solution is 12, you'd dial 13MOA

My question is: how do you know your turret clicks dont measure exactly what they state, surely no-one could hold a rifle firm enough to say that the POI at the target is down to turret error rather than shooter error.

 

I am not asking for help on how to use Shooter, I just dont see how anyone could be so sure its the Turrets not the operator

[farmer7]

Deleted :-×

[Jagged 77]

You shouldn't be using turret 'truing' to fine tune your dope. You should only calibrate your scope to the Ballistics program if you can accurately measure the exact value of your scopes turrets. This is done by securing down your rifle so there is zero movement, setting up graph paper at exactly 100 yards and then measuring a set distance on the paper vs the clicks on your scope.

 

You really only need to do this if you are shooting at distances over 1000 yards and want everything in your favour in order to achieve first round hits.

 

Concentrate on station pressure, temperature and velocity - this has a greater impact on getting the software to work in line with your real life results on target.

[gbal]

Might not some of the discrepancy between predicted and actual shot be due to real world inaccuracies in the data input (the alleged MV,atmospheric conditions,etc,and BC)-so the original point-how could we be sure it's the scope is a fair one,and so is the 'fall of shot' correction,but THE cause isn't derermined(and may well have several contributory causes,essentially unknowable exactly.)

In general,there seems to be something of a temptation to take ballistic program predictions as precise-but this is only so-if then-if the input parameters are exact....over a distance even 5fps fluctuation in Mv will show up-not much of course,but such differences can be cumulative.A few clicks fine tuning should be expected on any actual shooting occasion...?

Gbal

[The Gun Pimp]

Checking the accuracy of a scope's adjustment is a good idea. I usually do it if testing a scope for an article and I usually check all my own scopes.

 

I normally do a 'round the angles' or 'return to zero' check at 100 yards but a simple check can be done by firing a shot at 100 yards on a large sheet of paper - with a small aiming-mark - then winding on say 30MOA elevation and firing another shot (using the same aiming mark). Measure the distance between the two holes and compare it with whatever you wound-on. If you did use 30MOA, then 30 x 1.047 (31.41 inches) will give you the correct answer.

 

Some very expensive scopes can be up to 10% out. No problem - as long as you are aware! Of course, as any long-range target shooter knows, you can be over 'picky' about this as there are a lot of factors influencing elevation adjustment - temperature is probably the most significant one.

[redding]

You shouldn't be using turret 'truing' to fine tune your dope. You should only calibrate your scope to the Ballistics program if you can accurately measure the exact value of your scopes turrets. This is done by securing down your rifle so there is zero movement, setting up graph paper at exactly 100 yards and then measuring a set distance on the paper vs the clicks on your scope.

 

You really only need to do this if you are shooting at distances over 1000 yards and want everything in your favour in order to achieve first round hits.

 

Concentrate on barometric pressure, temperature and velocity - this has a greater impact on getting the software to work in line with your real life results on target.

Thanks for all the replies

The above is a great idea, my Zeiss click values are 1/3rd moa so I need to find 1/3rd moa graph paper.

 

Re the 1000yds bit, am I being a bit anal then, for now I only want to be able to shoot say 500 yards.

[Jagged 77]

Thanks for all the replies

The above is a great idea, my Zeiss click values are 1/3rd moa so I need to find 1/3rd moa graph paper.

 

Re the 1000yds bit, am I being a bit anal then, for now I only want to be able to shoot say 500 yards.

 

You can use plain paper, just mark a set distance and measure how many clicks it takes at exactly 100 yards to cover the distance. You can work it out from that. For lashing the rifle / scope down you can use a heavy bench, sand bags and ratchet straps. Use a tape measure to set your distance to the paper, a range finder is not accurate enough.

 

Its a good exercise to go through but it really is overkill for all but extreme long range. IMHO you'll learn more from getting out practising and recording results in a log, making sure your Ballistic Calculator inputs (DA, Temp etc) are good. Don't take for granted any velocity numbers you get from a field chronograph either - use the velocity calibration in Shooter. This is the single best feature you can use in order to true the calculator to the actual results - assuming all other inputs are good.

[redding]

 

You can use plain paper, just mark a set distance and measure how many clicks it takes at exactly 100 yards to cover the distance. You can work it out from that. For lashing the rifle / scope down you can use a heavy bench, sand bags and ratchet straps. Use a tape measure to set your distance to the paper, a range finder is not accurate enough.

 

Its a good exercise to go through but it really is overkill for all but extreme long range. IMHO you'll learn more from getting out practising and recording results in a log, making sure your Ballistic Calculator inputs (DA, Temp etc) are good. Don't take for granted any velocity numbers you get from a field chronograph either - use the velocity calibration in Shooter. This is the single best feature you can use in order to true the calculator to the actual results - assuming all other inputs are good.

OK thanks. Don't take for granted any velocity numbers you get from a field chronograph either - use the velocity calibration in Shooter

 

The Zeiss I have states 1/3rd moa / 1cm @ 100 yds. I have just done a few calcs and realised that I am being too fussy considering the ranges I want to shoot at ie 3-4-500 yards.

 

Can I ask please where is the velocity calibration in Shooter?

[Jagged 77]

In the table showing your solution you will see a square with an arrow pointing up in the top right hand corner. Select it.

 

 

It will bring up the Velocity Calibration option:

 

 

Select that and it will bring up the Calibration screen:

 

 

Enter your inputs here - it will calculate the actual velocity based on your drops. You have the option to save the corrected velocity at this point.

[gbal]

OK thanks. Don't take for granted any velocity numbers you get from a field chronograph either - use the velocity calibration in Shooter

 

The Zeiss I have states 1/3rd moa / 1cm @ 100 yds. I have just done a few calcs and realised that I am being too fussy considering the ranges I want to shoot at ie 3-4-500 yards.

 

Can I ask please where is the velocity calibration in Shooter?[/quote.

 

You could say Zeiss were being a little under fussy! But if the context is a stalking rifle shot at 200 yards,or metres-let's go with the flow- then it hardly matters ,and your general conclusion probably holds...just watch fall of shot for confirmation.

Gbal

[redding]

Thanks jagged 77 & gbal

 

Found it now, boy does that make sence, I see now why you say its more accurate than depending on my chronograph

gbal, yes the scope whilst a good bit of kit is designed for stalking so their markings arte near enough I suppose.

 

I do have an IOR 4-16x50 lurking in the cupboard, marked in 1/4 moa and a dedicated target jobbie, looks like I might dust it off

Going to the British Shooting Show on Friday with a slot for a .30 cal on my ticket, dangerous!

 

The more I look into long range shooting the more gripped I get.

[gbal]

No worries,many of us have been infected by the long range bug.

One point worth watching,is to keep the calibrations on your scope turret the same as any on your reticule ( ie both mil,or both moa) if possible-it doesn't much matter which system(some dedicated target scopes might be 1/8 rather than 1/4 moa-and this can be advantage in fine tuning at distance,just a nuisance for stalking)-but consistency does remove one more set of mental gymnastics. You will probably end up counting clicks anyhow,determined by actual fall of shot,in your rifle and loads on a particular day and range,but it helps to get very close from the charts! Hi mag (25x and up) helps too.

Anyhow it's wind that is the challenge,and there are no real ways of measuring that ,out where it really matters,apart from the muzzle area-basic Kestrel will do that.But it's very satisfying when you get some success...

Gbal

[redding]

Got the Shooter App working a treat.

2 10" gongs out at the weekend, 1 @ 300 yds & 1 @ 400

 

The 1st shot on the 300 hit dead centre, the 2nd was 3/4" left so very happy with that.

First shot on the 400 hit 5" right, allowed for wind and hit centre with the second.

Need to try it at 500 now.

 

Question

I just read a lot about MOA etc to see if I could find an answer.

My mates scope has 0.18" click value @ 100 yds on the elevation turret, (Swaro Z6i 5-30x50) in the Shooter app it does'nt give me an MOA fraction to use, any hints on how to set it up please.

[Jagged 77]

Got the Shooter App working a treat.

2 10" gongs out at the weekend, 1 @ 300 yds & 1 @ 400

 

The 1st shot on the 300 hit dead centre, the 2nd was 3/4" left so very happy with that.

First shot on the 400 hit 5" right, allowed for wind and hit centre with the second.

Need to try it at 500 now.

 

Question

I just read a lot about MOA etc to see if I could find an answer.

My mates scope has 0.18" click value @ 100 yds on the elevation turret, (Swaro Z6i 5-30x50) in the Shooter app it does'nt give me an MOA fraction to use, any hints on how to set it up please.

 

To change the turret value (say from 1/4 to 1/8) go into Firearms and tap Edit. Then go to Elevation Turret Grad and change to the correct value.

[redding]

Thanks for the quick reply Jagged 77.

The App only gives MOA of 1/10, 1/8, 1/6, etc etc

It wont allow an adjustment of 0.18"

[CZ Varminter]

Just remember at the end of the day there is always an element of shooter error, no matter how good you are. I love shooter as an app, very easy to use and constantly being updated to be the best it can be.

 

All the best

 

CZV

[Jagged 77]

Thanks for the quick reply Jagged 77.

The App only gives MOA of 1/10, 1/8, 1/6, etc etc

It wont allow an adjustment of 0.18"

 

Time for a new scope! Its much easier to work in MOA's (or MILS) when you're wanting to adjust point of aim on a frequent basis rather than use clicks. However if that's all you've got you'll just have to add in a little manual calculation or create a separate drop chart.

[redding]

Glad its his scope not mine.

My Zeiss is 1/3rd MOA and Shooter app accomodates that unit.

Cant believe how accurate it is

Cheers

[farmer7]

Pretty sure 0.18" would equate to pretty much exactly 1/20 of a MIL.

 

1 MIL = 3.6" @ 100 yards, so if you divide 3.6" by 20 it equals 0.18inch. Therefore if you changed the setting in Shooter from MOA to MIL and selected 1/20 would that not work fine? If thats right it would be a cheaper solution than a new scope!

[Will0]

Yep, sounds like 0.05mRad clicks. Half a centimetre at 100m?

 

Redding, is your zeiss a duralyt? A friend had one and thought it was 1/3moa, whereas it says approx 1/3moa or 1cm/100m.

Would it be preferable to run your ballistics programs in mil radian, as the clicks will more than likely be 0.36moa; a 10% difference

[gbal]

Got the Shooter App working a treat.

2 10" gongs out at the weekend, 1 @ 300 yds & 1 @ 400

 

The 1st shot on the 300 hit dead centre, the 2nd was 3/4" left so very happy with that.

First shot on the 400 hit 5" right, allowed for wind and hit centre with the second.

Need to try it at 500 now.

 

Question

I just read a lot about MOA etc to see if I could find an answer.

My mates scope has 0.18" click value @ 100 yds on the elevation turret, (Swaro Z6i 5-30x50) in the Shooter app it does'nt give me an MOA fraction to use, any hints on how to set it up please.

That's very encouraging,good start.Getting your scope settings gets more and more important-the good thing about elevation is you can know distance,and the drop therefore,for your cartridge-not a problem .Wind though is-if you haven't,spendsome time on wind drift -though it varies with cartridge/bullet etc,what might have been ten inches at 400y,so even a fair error in wind judgement is not too serious,might well be 60 inches plus at 800,and a 10% error in wind effect judgements-all the way out,of course,becomes a miss...but we all find it difficult,so persevere ,work out,and enjoy-1moa precision (group) is pretty good at 1000y,1moa accuracy (bang,clang)is very impressive!

Gbal

[redding]

Thanks Farmer7, that sounds like a good idea, I will pass t on.

 

Will0, It is a Victory FL Diavari 4-16X50, the turret is marked 0.33" @ 100 yds

[redding]

That's very encouraging,good start.Getting your scope settings gets more and more important-the good thing about elevation is you can know distance,and the drop therefore,for your cartridge-not a problem .Wind though is-if you haven't,spendsome time on wind drift -though it varies with cartridge/bullet etc,what might have been ten inches at 400y,so even a fair error in wind judgement is not too serious,might well be 60 inches plus at 800,and a 10% error in wind effect judgements-all the way out,of course,becomes a miss...but we all find it difficult,so persevere ,work out,and enjoy-1moa precision (group) is pretty good at 1000y,1moa accuracy (bang,clang)is very impressive!

Gbal

"Bang, Clang at 1000 yds is just a dream for a rookie like me, it did bring a large grin though with those first attempts at 300 & 400. Read a lot about judging wind and will be getting a Kestral, but it seems a hard thing to learn, perserveremce is the key I suppose, oh and a lot of reloading.