Which Scope???

[t.t]

I have a nightforce NXS NP2DD scope. I'm after a scope that is in the ffp with a fine ret as this will be used to shoot long range varmints.

I'm thinking along the lines of S&B PM11 P4F 0.1MRAD or March.

What are your thoughts and why, pro's and cons etc

[ds1]

I have used S&B and USO but the March FX 5-40x56 is better......I will buy another one.

[pwinnall]

Hello,

Vortex are bringing out a new Razor Gen II 4.5-27x50 scope.

I have seen it on SWFA.COM site and forums snipers hide.

It will be launched at the Shot show in about 2 weeks.

Regards Phil

[farmer7]

Hello,

Vortex are bringing out a new Razor Gen II 4.5-27x50 scope.

I have seen it on SWFA.COM site and forums snipers hide.

It will be launched at the Shot show in about 2 weeks.

Regards Phil

The new Razors are changing from 35mm tubes to 34mm also, really opening up mounting options. Quite fancy the 4.5-27x50.

[Jagged 77]

Sightron has just released a FFP model of its 6-24 LRMOA, well worth a look. The MOA-2 reticule is superb and glass on a par with Nightforce.

[terryh]

TT

 

Either of your mention scopes will 'work' and are both very good, have/do own both, you will not be disappointed. Either will be a noticeable step up from your Nightforce, not that there is anything wrong with the NSX!

 

Availability of specific S&B's is always interesting! Personally not too keen on the US driven gimmicks now seen on S&B's (and you only have to look at the NF 'BEAST' to see the ultimate in this department lol ). Delivery on the March (being built to order) is another consideration, but when shelling out this sort of money should not be a real problem.

 

Have not owned/used Sightron or Vortex, but have looked at/through a couple and they seem to have a good rep, but the lower grade Vortex appear to have a QA problem if you read/believe some of the US sites?

 

At this level get behind either of the makes you list, make sure it does what 'you' want There are plenty of folks with S&B's and Gary at March UK is very helpful and can normally arrange viewings etc.

 

Brgds Terry

[ds1]

+1 for Gary at March being a top bloke.

 

The feature set offered by March seems hard to beat at the moment. The glass seems on a par with other top end brands like S&B.....this is always a subjective as there is a balance or trade-off between resolution and contrast.

[MJR]

Have a look at the Kahles 624i also.

[Chris-NZ]

OK, I'll ask the question which I'm surprised no-one else has.

 

Why ffp for small varmints?

[t.t]

OK, I'll ask the question which I'm surprised no-one else has.

 

Why ffp for small varmints?

Not just for varmints will also be used for targets and deer.

[gbal]

OK, I'll ask the question which I'm surprised no-one else has.

 

Why ffp for small varmints?

+1 on the ffp question.

Why not a 'matching' NSX with a fine reticule...there is no problem at all holding on the edge of say a clay pigeon at 1000y with a 42,or even a 32x,not that NF are exactly cheap,but just what do they lack...presumably the vermin/varmints are about half that distance away? I just wonder what I'm missing...errr lacking with the NFs.Of course,we all sometimes fancy a change,fair enough-and you may have a good reason.

Gbal

[gbal]

Not just for varmints will also be used for targets and deer.

OK-targets and deer.....the plot thickens....still don't see the ffp case for targets,unless you mean 'tactical'' sort-on a known fixed distances range,ffp isn't no help. As for deer,the fine reticule might be a handicap...and distance is likely to be modest-250y.

As you wish,but there are always compromises in trying to get the best scope for two or more quite different applications,,as you know...if it's possible to be more specific,it might focus replies to your applications too..

[terryh]

Gbal,

 

SFP for target is as you say quite adequate so long as you are shooting the same targets all the time i.e. You know the size if rings etc. to hold off, unless you dial all the time! But even dialling you would want, I assume, to do some hold off once the significant windage is applied. Again OK if you are shooting regular targets, once 'funny' shapes are introduced how can you judge the correct hold off?

 

I used a 3-12 FFP for stalking and found it was set on around 7x and the ret was no problem. But regardless of mag setting the ret on a FFP actually means something all the time.

 

As for varmints the central 'dot' in the March covers less than 2" at 1000 yards, how small a varmint you planning on shooting?

 

Terry

[gbal]

Hi Terry,

I don't disagree with any of what you say- is it not just making my point-unless we know more about the OP's uses,all this lacks focus on his uses?

But while we wait,I did mention the non standard tactical scenario(not sure a very fine reticule would be optimal).In a sense ffp 'always means something'-but whether it means anything useful,is another matter.

I expect the NF 2DD dot is quite useable anyhow,but since we don't know varmint distance,it's all a bit pointless.....If the scope is pretty well fixed at ,say 7x,for deer then so be it-seems sensible,but then almost all the possible advantages of a top scope are compromised,or rather not needed...which ,again,is my point-compromise. I'd have to see a lot a positives to offset £2k+ on a scope that was ...compromised.

The point of clay pigeon resolution at 1000 is that it will be a lot better than that at realistic (UK?) vermin ranges-good at 1000 means even better at 500y.

But,to repeat,when we find out the detail of the OP applications,then the discussion can address them.

So far,I doubt that we will differ much if talking about the same applications-given one scope for all just has to have some compromises.:-)

[shuggie]

Hi all i use a NF benchrest 12.42 not had any problems ,i think most scopes at these prices very little difference in quality ,individual preference ,but if you cant see a 1mph wind change at 1000yds it want matter what scope you have ,your shot will at least be 5inch out

[ds1]

It may help to understand that a FFP scope can be used a lot easier than a 2FP scope for some applications......the pic shows two of my rifles and scopes, one a March 5-40x56 and the other a Nightforce NXS 12-42x56. One practice is to engage a 800m plate and to engage a 300m mover......the mover starts on command to engage the 800m plate........there is no time to make an elevation adjustment so a hold under in this case is needed...........much easier with a FFP reticule, with the NXS 2FP I have to make sure that I am on 12x and have my hold overs pre worked out. The FFP March I am good to go at any mag. To see the pros do it watch the Gap Grind video. A mix of dialling some stages and hold overs on others is a good skill.

 

The point about the March scope over the NXS is that it is all positive.....better glass, compact, a parallax which coincides with the distance, intelligent illumination, more elevation and a reticule with a centre dot that I like for precise aiming. I also like the Khales 6-24x56 scope, S&B PMII 5-25x56, USO 5-25x58 TPAL etc but none offer the same top end of the March whilst maintain a low 5x bottom end.......Some features on these scopes I prefer though, the Khales double turn turret is very good, second revolution being indicated by a pop-up pin and the positive stops on the parallax wheel are excellent......just a shame it only goes down to 50m, in fact I prefer the Khaales to the S&B because below about 8x with the S&B you do not gain field of view because the lens baffle gets in the way.

[gbal]

Hi ds1

I have no doubts at all that ffp is superior for some shooters,and some applications.Nor that a scope that costs £1000 more will likely have some improved optical qualities-that's why the NF is a bit better than some lower priced scopes.I'm all for choice-not everyone can so indulge.

Whether this advantage -fixed then mover-has any wider applications,is for others to ponder-I can't see it for varmints,but i'm sure any top end scope would be well capable .Night Force do dots if you must have-actually some reticules have fine cross hair and fine dot !

I don't do the static mover-sounds fun and quite challenging.If i chose not to spend more £ks on a March,I'd at least try with ,one NF reticule aim point set for 800,and one of the other aim marks-depending on the particular reticule-which was set for 300.I would not have to change anything at all,except the aim mark,and still be on for both shots.Mil dot reticules would do too...and on it goes....I accept that I might be disadvantaged,but it's not clear why....

If the targets are random distance and size,I might try the lazerscope,knowing the zero points for each mil dot...what fun...no doubt I'd learn something.

The general brief-scope for 'target',deer,and 'long range' varmints -remains a tough one,or an easy one-depending on where you put priorities and compromises.Whether there is a one rifle to do it it all,is even more fun to consider...factoring in also the shooter's constitution/terrain.I'm not even sure I want there to be.... :-)

I do see the specialist requirements too-and thanks for your info there-it's the generality that challenges.

 

Gbal

[farmer7]

In my own opinion unless you're a benchrest shooter or target shooter always shooting at known ranges FFP is better in everyway for long range shooting!

 

I bought my first FFP scope about three years ago and apart from .22's and a few other low power scopes lying around I've since replaced all of my long range scopes with FFP.

 

I can easily quarter a rabbits head at 600 yards with the Vortex FFP MRAD reticule, its thickness is listed as 0.04mil, equivalent to 0.14 MOA, if my conversion is right! I assume most of the more expensive top end FFP scopes reticules are of fairly similar dimensions. As everyone knows the reticule subtension doesnt change with magnification with FFP. In my personal experience I've never once wished I had a SFP scope in any situation, in fact I wont own an SFP scope again for long range shooting.

 

I use my scopes for long range vermin/plinking/targets, stalking and foxing. And a big plus if shooting on your own is being able to spot your own shots and adjust using the reticule at any magnification.

[Shuggy]

FFP mil/mil scopes also work very well for target shooting, as long as you have a good reticle design. Take your sighter, measure the angular offset with your reticle, dial the correction and you are on. It couldn't be simpler and makes me wonder why I spent years messing around with SFP scopes and distance specific MOA plot sheets.

[gbal]

In my own opinion unless you're a benchrest shooter or target shooter always shooting at known ranges FFP is better in everyway for long range shooting!

I bought my first FFP scope about three years ago and apart from .22's and a few other low power scopes lying around I've since replaced all of my long range scopes with FFP.

I can easily quarter a rabbits head at 600 yards with the Vortex FFP MRAD reticule, its thickness is listed as 0.04mil, equivalent to 0.14 MOA, if my conversion is right! I assume most of the more expensive top end FFP scopes reticules are of fairly similar dimensions. As everyone knows the reticule subtension doesnt change with magnification with FFP. In my personal experience I've never once wished I had a SFP scope in any situation, in fact I wont own an SFP scope again for long range shooting.

I use my scopes for long range vermin/plinking/targets, stalking and foxing. And a big plus if shooting on your own is being able to spot your own shots and adjust using the reticule at any magnification.

 

I have no disagreement at all with your preferences,though they are not mine.

The only objective detail is in your third paragraph,and if you replace FFP with SFP,you might have something I could write----reticule fineness ie minute of eyeball,is not really a focal plane issue,but I will concede that I have not checked rabbit eyeball quartering at 42x with a FFP scope-it won't be embarrassingly off,not that it matters-head is just a given.

To take Shuggie's point,I'd be more impressed if the FFP could pick up slighter grass movements,but I suspect that too is a

magnification issue. I've seen nothing yet that strongly pushes me too spend yet another £2k on a ffp scope,for any of the original uses,but I'd be interested enough to try the ffp option....it's all a bit personal preference...I don't like single duplex reticules,but if I was dialling every range change,it would be fine...choose and play...there is no 'best one fits all'

Gbal.

[Chris-NZ]

I can see for those that feel they must have reticles that read in "absolute" then FFP is the way to go but for the vast majority of long range shooters that use a rangefinder and crank windage, 2FP is fine. A reticle that magnifies as you crank it up for distance would drive me crazy personally.

 

I just treated myself to an ATACR Nightforce for my new 6x47L. The optics walk over the other NXSs I have, both in sharpness and brightness, and it's relatively short (if not lighter) than the others. It also has 120MOA of elevation which is def enough for anything I can imagine

[MJR]

SFP scopes are fine if you don't need an accurate reticle. But say the shooter takes a shot, misses but sees the bullet splash. If the SFP scope is set at a reticle 'true' magnification or multiple there of then happy days, a dialled correction can be made or if spotting for a partner accurate correction can be given. If the scope is not set at a reticle true magnification then the reticle cannot be used for reading a true correction and only used for hold off for a second shot. FFP scopes are always 'true' no matter what magnification.

[Chris-NZ]

Ok, so I see the impact 6" left of the animal/varmint/.. and I correct for this with hold-off or some extra windage. It's only experience ( "it's 325yds so that's roughly 2MOA"..) and having a FFP reticle won't save a newbie in this scenario.

 

I still fail to see a problem with the scope's focal plane.

[MJR]

Chris, you've high lighted my point perfectly - you have to know "it's 325yds so that's roughly 2MOA" and know what your reticle is telling you with a SFP scope. With FFP there is no thinking to be done as the reticle is always true, you simply just read the graduations to know how much you missed by! No guessing, no calculation.

If you haven't already used one then try a FFP scope just for the sake of comparison.

[shuggie]

Hi all if you are really serious about long range shooting dont use hold over or mill dots dial in elevation and windage in scope ,400yds and over if you range a animal and it moves just 10yds you need to make a adjustment of quarter minute angle,and over 800yds its nearly half minute , then there is spin drift at 600yds its quarter minute angle ,thats before we even start . Air pressure cant incline temp to name a few anything that can be measured and accounted for you need to put this information into your scope.These calculations are all based on my rifle, using a bullet with one off the best BC. This might seem a bit heavy for a lot of long range shooters ,but i have used this for years ,perfected it for years for my rifles and now have a good one shot kill ratio. i mostly shoot deer ,but when the least bit of doubt comes in i dont take the shot,someone one day years ago asked what makes a good long range shooter ,i said knowing when not to take the shot .