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.17 HMR ammo purchasing


deadcenter

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Have a CZ in .17 HMR, nice rifle, enjoyable to shoot, which I do at different ranges.

 

Always purchased Hornady Vmax from my local rfd.

 

Went to a different place today for the first time for a look around and pick up some remington .17 they have to give it a try. They wouldn'y sell it to me however as I don't have expanding ammo on my fac. Would be illegal to sell me as would be the hornady.

 

Now this has me worried. I don't currently don't have any, but have I held ammo that I should not have?

I called my original place and he said that the HMR only comes one way and if I have permission for the rifle I have to be able to buy the ammo so it's above board.

 

Who's right here?

 

Thanks for any advice, don't want to have to lose the rifle because I can't legally buy ammo for it.

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I think you were speaking to an ignoramus...there has never been non-expanding HMR ammo and, since it is not a reloading proposition, your "RFD" was taking through orifices other than his mouth...go to your original supplier and don't bother with that idiot again. And, by the way, Remington and hornady HMR ammo come from the same place. Stick with the hornady though, in my rifle (same as yours) Remington never shot well

 

Best wishes and a happy new year

 

Finman

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for anyone to sell you expanding you have to have the authority on your fac to purchase it will say how many to purchase and how many to hold/posses at any one time.

i dont think there is a "target "version for hmr so if you purchased expanding from your local rfd you must have it in print.

if so the "new"place are talking crap.look at your fac and see what it actually says .

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My fac says on the first page - "firearms and amunition shall be used for target shooting" while member of my club " and at ranges suitable for the safe use of that class of firearm"

 

This first page is what the people at the shop looked at - didn't say I could buy expanding ammo. I uderstand it would say it here as my friend has it on his as he has permissions on land for vermin control.

 

Page 2 of my fac, part 2 - "Ammunition including expanding ammunition and expanding missiles" - among other calibres states .17 HMR. purchase 500, keep 600.

 

Has the log of previous perchases on back page.

 

He said CCI make fmj non expanding (which they had at £31 / 100) which I could have. I just wanted to try the Rem.

 

I'm just worried about illegal posession. Was thinking about calling my Firearms dept, but I don't want them taking away my .17 without having vermin control permissions etc.

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I was specifically advised by my kindly FEO to specify "expanding" when I first applied for my 17HMR.

 

The reason for the .17HMR was the very fact that the ammunition was frangible and suitable for the permission I was to shoot at.

 

Up until recently I always used Hornady red tip (then Blue) 17gn and it was superb. Occasionally I used the 20gn which grouped 1 MOA lower on the range.

I have used the 17gn Winchester which appeared to shoot softer / less crack. CCI used to produce a FMJ.

 

I have expanding on my ticket. I also have the condition to use on the range for zeroing only - not target shooting. Be aware of this.

 

The responsibility is yours as you ultimately sign for any purchase be that rifle and the ammunition as stated on your ticket. Check with one of the shooting organisations if unsure, but if expanding is on your ticket as you state then you are clear. All the best.

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My fac says on the first page - "firearms and amunition shall be used for target shooting" while member of my club " and at ranges suitable for the safe use of that class of firearm"

 

This first page is what the people at the shop looked at - didn't say I could buy expanding ammo. I uderstand it would say it here as my friend has it on his as he has permissions on land for vermin control.

 

Page 2 of my fac, part 2 - "Ammunition including expanding ammunition and expanding missiles" - among other calibres states .17 HMR. purchase 500, keep 600.

 

Has the log of previous perchases on back page.

 

He said CCI make fmj non expanding (which they had at £31 / 100) which I could have. I just wanted to try the Rem.

 

I'm just worried about illegal posession. Was thinking about calling my Firearms dept, but I don't want them taking away my .17 without having vermin control permissions etc.

Hi Deadcenter

It would seem your fac says no to expanding.

Most if not all shooting clubs wont allow H/V expanding to be used

Sussex ask for land permission forms if the weapons are being used for anything other than target so I guess they assumed you wont need them.

Your Feo may be different but worth asking them.

As for what make of round to use your own testing is the best answer, maybe nick some different ones off your mate.

I use the same rifle as you and use, Winchester supreme 17gr vmax, Hornady varmint express 17gr vmax, Federal premium V-Shok 17gr vmax.

They all shoot the same at 100m. including higher weighted bullets.

BUT I only use mine for vermin not target.

Hope that helps a bit

Happy new year

V

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In the eyes of the law if you haven't got expanding on your conditions on the first page you can't buy them full stop.I presume that your first supplier didn't read your conditions and the second one did.A pain I know but thats the law and if anything went amiss its the RFD who will have to explain why he sold expanding without the correct permission (hence the stance of shop No 2)

 

The number of times that I've seen tickets that sporting shooters only have not had expanding and had to be returned for amendment you wouldn't believe

 

The general rule of thumb is that if you're a target shooter only you don't need expanding as its not strictly allowed on a lot of ranges (how strictly this is adhered to I don't know not being a club member).If its sporting shooting you should get it automatically

 

I think the whole expanding/non expanding condition is a shambles and something that the Home Office will be addressing in the new proposals hopefully

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In the eyes of the law if you haven't got expanding on your conditions on the first page you can't buy them full stop.I presume that your first supplier didn't read your conditions and the second one did.A pain I know but thats the law and if anything went amiss its the RFD who will have to explain why he sold expanding without the correct permission (hence the stance of shop No 2)

 

The number of times that I've seen tickets that sporting shooters only have not had expanding and had to be returned for amendment you wouldn't believe

 

The general rule of thumb is that if you're a target shooter only you don't need expanding as its not strictly allowed on a lot of ranges (how strictly this is adhered to I don't know not being a club member).If its sporting shooting you should get it automatically

 

I think the whole expanding/non expanding condition is a shambles and something that the Home Office will be addressing in the new proposals hopefully

Spot on

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In the eyes of the law if you haven't got expanding on your conditions on the first page you can't buy them full stop.I presume that your first supplier didn't read your conditions and the second one did.A pain I know but thats the law and if anything went amiss its the RFD who will have to explain why he sold expanding without the correct permission (hence the stance of shop No 2)

 

The number of times that I've seen tickets that sporting shooters only have not had expanding and had to be returned for amendment you wouldn't believe

 

The general rule of thumb is that if you're a target shooter only you don't need expanding as its not strictly allowed on a lot of ranges (how strictly this is adhered to I don't know not being a club member).If its sporting shooting you should get it automatically

 

I think the whole expanding/non expanding condition is a shambles and something that the Home Office will be addressing in the new proposals hopefully

Agreed...however it is even more idiotic IMHO to grant an HMR for target use only...till someone mentioned above, I wasn't even aware there were target ammo available for this, primarily varmint, cartridge...where logic stops, (some) FLOs start me thinks...

 

Best wishes

 

Finman

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I think the reasoning behind the shop owner where I bought the amm from was that the rifle permission is there, I must be able to buy the ammo. However, I agree with what the law says and the shop owner has been in the game FAR longer than I have.

 

Oh, I bought the rifle from them also.

 

I'll call my FLO in the new year.

 

I might seek out some of the CCI stuff. The shop had 150 rnds and Kranks have the CCI fmj 20g listed in their catalogue.

 

Thanks again, didn't want to end up in a sticky situation.

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You have only got a condition for target shooting. This will be why there is no condition for expanding ammunition. I'd be surprised if you'll get said condition for target shooting but that naturally depends on your FLO. Best of luck with it.

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Deadcenter - Now I'm confused.

 

You either have or have not got permission for expanding as you quote:-

 

Page 2 of my fac, part 2 - "Ammunition including expanding ammunition and expanding missiles" - among other calibres states .17 HMR. purchase 500, keep 600.

 

As my understanding goes having permission for a specific calibre is one thing. Specifics on ammunition type (expanding / non expanding) are another irrespective of retailer.

 

Chaps, did I misread something here ?

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Deadcenter - Now I'm confused.

 

You either have or have not got permission for expanding as you quote:-

 

Page 2 of my fac, part 2 - "Ammunition including expanding ammunition and expanding missiles" - among other calibres states .17 HMR. purchase 500, keep 600.

 

As my understanding goes having permission for a specific calibre is one thing. Specifics on ammunition type (expanding / non expanding) are another irrespective of retailer.

 

Chaps, did I misread something here ?

Not confusing, just reading more into it. Said entry on page 2 refers to what can be purchased and held. This refers to whatever has been conditioned on page 1 which is why it gives the option for expanding. Not that you can have it but if you can, how many. Otherwise it just refers to non expanding.

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Well....... called my FLO today. She said that I couldn't buy expanding ammunition (as we know). She knows the guy who origionally sold me the rifle and ammo afterwards and he's been in the game a long time and knows his stuff. Also the second shop was acting correctly as to what is stated on my fac. She's going to look into what's expanding and not in .17 HMR.

 

It's something that needs to be looked at as regards my options. It may be that I'm allowed expanding ammo in this calibre only for target shooting if approved by the ranges at which I shoot, or if I must have land permissions for vermin control to posses it.

Depends on what is home office guideline and subject to police force conditions, and what is law.

 

In the meantime I'll look into the CCI stuff, if it is non expanding, and if it's readily available.

 

Got to call back middle of next week, so I'll do a bit of homework till then and see how this pans out.

 

My FLO hasn't come accross this problem before so I hope I haven't opened a can of worms for other fac holders in my area. Beginning to wish I hadn't started this.

 

If this threads still of interest to anyone I'll post the outcome.

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I had a visit from my FAO today to discuss my various requested FAC variations. During the discussion I asked if he was willing to include a .17 HMR Barrel in addition to .22LR slot, as was considering a Sako Quad. He willingly included, but with intention of target shooting only it will be interest to see how it's written up given this thread suggests Target ammo for this calibre may be limited

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  • 2 weeks later...

Well, got an answer from my FLO.

 

As expected, I can't purchase any expanding ammo for target shooting, no exceptions. So it's either non expanding, which I believe CCI do, or gain land permission.

 

I was also advised that it was unlikely that I should have been allowed to shoot this ammo at the range. I'll have a quiet look at that as quite a few do with .17.

 

Amazing that I have been sold it for the last year.

 

Anyway, thanks for your input folks. It probably panned out just as everyone expected it to.

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You are allowed to use exp ammo on mod ranges 'with permission', but, it's is illegal to use exp for any competition. Quite what the differences are between zeroing and counting points is, but hey ho

Surely there is somebody on here, local to you, who can put you in touch with somebody with a bit of land you can shoot over, anybody ????

(On that note, where are you ? )

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Well, got an answer from my FLO.

 

As expected, I can't purchase any expanding ammo for target shooting, no exceptions. So it's either non expanding, which I believe CCI do, or gain land permission.

 

I was also advised that it was unlikely that I should have been allowed to shoot this ammo at the range. I'll have a quiet look at that as quite a few do with .17.

 

Amazing that I have been sold it for the last year.

 

Anyway, thanks for your input folks. It probably panned out just as everyone expected it to.

 

I suspect the reference to being 'unlikely that I should have been allowed to shoot this ammo at the range' is not about 'expanding' ammo per se, rather the HMR's ballistics. Most rimfire ranges are certified with .22LR ballistics in mind and .17HMR exceeds both maximum allowed energy and velocity criteria.

 

This isn't just bureacracy. Most indoor rimfire ranges have relatively thin / fragile backstops and if outdoor are of the 'no danger area' variety behind the backstop. The HMR has much higher retained energy levels at 25 / 50 / 100 metres than .22LR that will wear backstops out quickly and on an outdoor range, its bullet will cover a much greater distance if there is an ND that misses the backstop. It will also retain a life-threatening level of retained energy out to a longer distance.

 

Club officials need to be quite clear on this issue. If they allow 17s to be used on a range where they're outside of the certification requirements, the club would likely not be covered by its insurance in the event of an accident, and the club officers might find themselves personally liable for any damages. If an HMR is used on a fullbore rifle range, there is usually no problem unless the range has been certified for '.22 rimfire plus fullbore pistol calibres only', or as happens occasionally any rimfire cartridge is explicitly excluded. The rimfire exclusion is down to the perceived ricochet danger from lead bullet .22s, but will normally include the 17s in this catch-all phrase. (So, you get the anomolous situation of .17 Hornet / Remington being OK, but not .17HMR / HM2!)

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Hi Laurie,

 

Unless I end up with the permission to buying exp it's a bit redundent to me at the moment, but I'm going to have a quiet enquire about it next time I'm at the range.

 

It does state each of the ranges limits as "any .17 or .22 rimfire, .22 cal being limited to 2200 fps and 1610 ft lbs, and and sub .22 cal rimfire ie .17 hmr limited to 2600 fps and 1610 ft lbs".

 

The HV range is 4000 fps and 3000 ft lbs.

 

Doesn't say anything about exp though. I'll find out.

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Hi swamp donkey,

 

I'm in Mansfield. I'd be happy to discuss the possibility of land permission with anyone locally.

 

I don't have the time to commit to a strict vermin control service which is why I never really bothered with looking much before. There seems to be plenty of people out there who guard their permissions closely (rightly so) and who work with the land owners to control vermin problems.

 

I wouldn't want to mess anyone about or make any false promisses. I would like the chance to shoot on land though, at both parties conveinience perhaps half a dozen times a year?

 

Not being pickey or lazy, just don't have an awful lot of time. Love to shoot though, as we all do.

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That's exactly what you want to find! The range certification has either been issued for, or revised to allow .17 rimfires. I don't see FMJ or expanding projectiles as an issue there unless the certification or club's / range owner's rules either mandates or bans the use of any particular type. (I have come across it either way although it's not common. In one club I was a member of some years back with a 100 metre no danger area outdoor range, the club management nearly banned the use of FMJ or jacketed match bullets after complaints by a neighbour of the occasional spent round arriving on his property, it was thought through some shots ricocheting over the backstop. It was initially thought that expanding sporting bullets would always break up and would therefore be 'safer'. After consideration, the butts were rebuilt with a canopy and a revised sand trap installed instead and the problem was solved that way.)

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