260,260ack or creedmoor

[Swarovski1]

Hi all, sometime next year my 308 will be having a calibre change, its mainly a range rifle, any advice would be good to help me decide which way to go, regards swaro

[John MH]

.260

[DaveT]

.260

 

Can only agree with this.

[Swarovski1]

Why the 260

[Swarovski1]

Why the 260, thought the creedmoor was improved version, hear say

[John MH]

Simple, well known and used plus the Brass is available from Lapua.

[gbal]

Hi all, sometime next year my 308 will be having a calibre change, its mainly a range rifle, any advice would be good to help me decide which way to go, regards swaro

I'd add 6.5x47 Lapua ,then read the Accurate Shooter review of these contenders-they could not really find any decisive differences,and I very much doubt that we will here. There are small pros/cons but they are very small,and vary across the cartridges,unless you have a very special need,or need to avoid (like slightly pricier/less available brass).The Lapua does seem to often have an edge in accuracy,in custom builds,of course,while the 260 is uber reliable feeder. Individual rifle differences might be just as important,if like is compared with like.As you are rebarrelling, even that does not come into it.It's win,win(win).

Gbal

[Swarovski1]

The 6.5x47 is ment for 120gr or less I was told, I intend using it at 1000yds, surely the 140gr heafs will be better, I am new to 6.5 cal, recently had a 6.5 06 made that shoot really well at 1000yds but its my hunting rifle.

[John MH]

That's why I said .260. There is not much between any of the short action 6.5s.

[jcampbellsmith]

That's why I said .260. There is not much between any of the short action 6.5s.

Agree. http://demigodllc.com/articles/6.5-shootout-260-6.5x47-6.5-creedmoor/ Regards JCS

[gbal]

The 6.5x47 is ment for 120gr or less I was told, I intend using it at 1000yds, surely the 140gr heafs will be better, I am new to 6.5 cal, recently had a 6.5 06 made that shoot really well at 1000yds but its my hunting rifle.

I'm not pushing either-it's a damn close run thing...esp for a range rifle out to 1000y,a 260 would not disappoint,but if you want a good summary of informed opinion,google

 

6.5 shootout: 6.5x47Lapua V 260 rem v 6.5 Creedmore

 

The 6.5 Lapua does shoot 123 scenars exceptionally well,(and was originally designed for 130s) but that does not mean it cannot shoot 140s on a par with the 260...the "shootout' comparison will give you a good and unbiased consensus of (mainly US ) experience,so you can add pinches of salt here and there if less supported opinion is put forward as gospel-not that it has yet,but be prepared.....

 

Gbal

[baldie]

The 47 wont push a 140 fast enough to compete with a 260...it hasn,t got the engine room.

 

The creedmoor will. Its sort of inbetween both cases, size and capacity wise. It also feeds well.

 

I dont honestly see the point in 260 ackley. 9 out of 10 people dont use the standard case capacity of the 260.

 

You really need to decide on your bullet. Its critical to your choice as there is so little in them.

[jcampbellsmith]

...I dont honestly see the point in 260 ackley. 9 out of 10 people dont use the standard case capacity of the 260....

Agree, I 've read a lot about the various 260 Improved options, but it's very little gain versus buying custom dies. I'm just sticking to std 260 Rem.

 

Regards

 

JCS

[gbal]

The 47 wont push a 140 fast enough to compete with a 260...it hasn,t got the engine room.

 

The creedmoor will. Its sort of inbetween both cases, size and capacity wise. It also feeds well.

 

I dont honestly see the point in 260 ackley. 9 out of 10 people dont use the standard case capacity of the 260.

 

You really need to decide on your bullet. Its critical to your choice as there is so little in them.

Thanks Dave,agreed-100 fps is 100fps.I mentioned the 6.5L just for completeness,and perhaps anticipating some posts from UKV users.I don't think there is enough data to answer the very small accuracy differences,if any.My old NF has a dial for a few clicks of windage (5" at 1000?),but not for fine tuning group size.As a guide,how about:

Field (even big ones)-6.5 L ,260

Tactical 260

Range 260,Creedmore,6.5L

Mixed-whatever you fancy,they all do it all pretty well.

 

 

When(IF-how many thousand rounds do these shoot well) my old sako needs a rebarrel,It will be a 260.I like the family.I can probably

neck up 1000 243 to 260 for the cost of a couple of Jones bushings,(£25) and save the cost of up to 1000 Lapua 6.5 brass (pretty close to £1 each),and dies (£200).So the savings will be 'on a near par ' with the Baldie/Kreiger rebarrel cost!(inflation proofed).

Gbal

[terryh]

That's why I said .260. There is not much between any of the short action 6.5s.

Swavorski,

 

This about sums it up.

 

Not a lot of difference between the .260 and the 47 in real terms, do not know what folks are achieving hand loading the .260 but the 47 will push the 139g at 2850fps comfortably out of a 25" barrel.

 

What are you looking for the rifle to do for you? You've posted in the 'Tacticool' section so you are looking for magazine fed, sensible barrel length, non barrel burner, reasonable recoil, consistent accuracy over good round count before cleaning. 260 or 47

 

In theory the .260 should do better, but very good competition results (records) are being achieved with the 47.

 

Compared to your 308 the move to either of the 6.5's mentioned will be a significant advantage, in comparison the 308's a glittery brick

 

Terry

 

Ps did not include the Creedmoor as I cannot see where it actually fits?

[Laurie]

As has been said here, and many times elsewhere, there is not a huge performance difference ballistically between the three in real life, especially when handloaded.

 

The 260 Rem and 6.5mm Hornady Creedmoor have identical case capacities and operate at identical chamber pressures, the 'old' .308 Win PMax of 60,191 psi using the Piezo transducer measuring method. You can therefore expect identical ballistics subject to all the usual caveats such as what particular load / pressure suits the rifle, barrel and chamber dimensions etc.

 

The Creedmoor was developed to match .260 Rem while overcoming its one perceived downside, that its two-inch plus length case sees heavy bullets (greater than 130gn) seated very deep to stay within the nominal 2.800" COAL, and the 2.8-2.95" COAL that most short-action magazine rifles are limited to in repeater mode. The other reason that Hornady developed the cartridge was to introduce an off the shelf match cartridge for non-handloaders, and the company saw US competitors not 'hunters' as its customers, hence two A-Max factory loads and no expanding deer or varmint products initially (SST and GMX bulleted versions now produced too). In practice, it achieved both objectives as the Creedmoor's shorter, less tapered case with a sharper (30-deg angle) shoulder does suit 140gn bullets very well and stays within short actions lengths. It has also been a phenomenal seller in the USA in factory ammo form, and was quickly adopted by field shooters and handloaders.

 

Like the 260, it uses large primers in a 0.473" dia. case-head. Unlike the 260, only Hornady makes brass so far, and it's possible but more work than the Remy design to re-form other cases. For quite a while after Hornady launched the cartridge, brass was difficult to find, often unobtainable for lengthy periods. There were also hints on US forums that early brass was a bit 'soft' leading to expanded primer pockets after three firings. Current thinking is that if this was ever really true, it's been solved. Nevertheless, like similar cartridges (260, 243 etc), load it a bit too warm, and you'll soon have to junk the brass for this reason. My experience with these cases (as with other Hornady brass as in 6.8mm Rem SPC) is that it is extremely variable production quality wise with things like two quite separate weight groups in a box of 50 three or four grains different, likewise large neck thickness variations - so measuring / batching is a good idea if you want to use the cartridge in anything other than short-range competition. I'd also advise deburring flash-holes as essential. Two of one box of 50 cases that I've used had the entire piece of displaced metal from the punching operation still in situ and partially blocking the flash-holes - coming out as figure 6s or 8s when reamed.

 

It is a very nice cartridge though and does what it says on the tin. The shorter, less tapered, sharper shoulder design is much more modern than those based on the .308 case and it still feeds well being used in many US High-Power or tactical disciplines including in AR-10, SR-25 type semi-auto rifles. Whether it does anything better than the 260 is a moot point and the sort of thing that can have shooters arguing over endlessly. What the 260 DOES have going for it is availability and brass choice, especially with really, really good Lapua brass.

 

So far as the current people's darling, 6.5-47L, goes, it's another very modern short design that allows the bullet to be less deeply seated than in 260 Rem, a good thing as it has somewhere around 10-12% less case capacity than the other two. The rule of thumb is that all other things being equal, a case capacity change in % terms is divided by 4 to get the actual effect on MV / ME. So, this cartridge should produce velocities around 2.5-3% less than its two bigger rivals, ie around 70-80 fps less if 2,800 fps is the guideline figure. All things aren't equal though as this cartridge is rated by CIP at 63,091 fps PMax compared to the 260's / Creedmoor's 60,190 psi. This is no doubt one reason why Lapua adopted the small primer form of the 0.473" case-head as it puts a lot more metal into this crucial area giving a very strong component that will take a lot of abuse from handloaders.

 

And ... IMO, the 6.5X47L DOES get a LOT of abuse. I'm afraid I cringe when I see quotes as in the previous post that the cartridge 'comfortably' pushes the 139gn bullet out of a 25-inch barrel at 2,850 fps. It will do so, but at CIP PMax + pressures. I suspect a lot of people are running their 6.5X47Ls at 65,000 psi and more, and they'll get away with it because it's such a well designed and made case with a very hard case-head as well as lots of thick metal. Do that with 260 Rem / Creedmoor and the primer pockets will slacken very quickly.

 

The downside of the small primer design is that it may not perform well in seriously sub-zero temperatures, not an issue for me, but maybe for some deerstalkers in what would be extreme conditions for a normal Scottish or northern English winter. More important to people like me is that small primer, high-pressure designs crater primers worse than LR types if the firing pin is a slightly slack fit in the bolt face and/or the mainspring is weak. This can make the cartridge marginally useful for many factory actions such as the Remy 700 as primers will pierce before full pressures are obtained. I suspect this is one reason why few manufacturers offer the cartridge as a standard chambering - it needs higher quality control than they can guarantee in this respect.

[baldie]

Superb post as always Laurie.

 

Thank you.

[John MH]

So the answer is get a .260.

[Laurie]

So the answer is get a .260.

 

 

:)

 

Could be. I've got all three, but only had the chance to explore the .260 properly so far. And it does perform much better than it has any right to. I shot 99.8v in an 800 yard F-Class match at Diggle yesterday for 4th place overall behind 100.14v (.308 Win), 99.13v (.284 Win) and 99.13v (another 284 Win, or something large, fearsome and 1,000 yard competitive F-Openish as it was John Campbell using it). That was with the piddling little 123gn Scenar and in a rebarrelled factory rifle (FN Special Police Rifle with a heavy Bartlein stuck on).

 

To be fair, the winds were very light by Diggle standards (especially for the last day of November) and as one competitor said, a good 6BR rifle would have been ideal for the conditions. The 260 and its little bullet held superb elevation throughout - as it always does. This was in a pretty standard 260 Rem chamber (I think - The Gun Pimp will know exactly as it's his reamer) throated such that cartridges end up over-length for the FN's magazine which barely accepts 2.800" COAL, but was used by Vince in his McQueens rifle in magazine form.

[bradders]

So the answer is get a .260.

Yep.....at least until another cartridge comes along that does the same thing as the other 3.....then get that

[6.5shooter]

For outright inherent accuracy get 6.5x47.

If in a tactical rifle both will work.

[Laurie]

Yep.....at least until another cartridge comes along that does the same thing as the other 3.....then get that

 

 

Nah - like Weetabix, three is enough for any man!

[John MH]

For outright inherent accuracy get 6.5x47.

If in a tactical rifle both will work.

 

Unless you want to shoot heavy bullets at higher velocity of course.

[Laurie]

 

Unless you want to shoot heavy bullets at higher velocity of course.

 

 

That's what God helped by the Swedes made 6.5X55mm for!

[terryh]

So the answer is get a .260.

Along with 8 tracks, Betamax tapes and platform shoes

 

Basically, and as always, run with what you're happy with.

 

As tactical matches are/should be based around a 308 capabilities then either gives you an edge.

 

Terry