tikka 223 Posted March 1, 2008 Report Share Posted March 1, 2008 Right could be in for some stick here . Its the time of year the vixens will be down with cubs and my personal feelings are to lay off them unless the farmer has problems then they will be sorted but will try to find the den and sort cubs out as well . Like i said these are my personal feelings and was wondering if anybody else backs off them for a bit ? Keep it nice boys Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6mmBR Posted March 1, 2008 Report Share Posted March 1, 2008 We carry one as we are in a big sheep area and the farmers lamb from the second week of March on. As you say I think this is self limiting in a way as the vixens are holed up. This perhaps is proven by us by only shooting dogs for the last 3 weeks. Cheers Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tikka 223 Posted March 1, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 1, 2008 Thanks for the reply im lucky i guess as there are no sheep around my area Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigyboy Posted March 2, 2008 Report Share Posted March 2, 2008 I am pretty much the same Tikka, I would love to keep on shooting them as there is loads of movement at this time of year from the dogs but i would like to give them a chance in life. I have a mixture of cattle,crop and sheep land to shoot over so I lay off the crop and cattle completely and only shoot on the sheep ground when there is a problem I had none last year and didnt shoot a fox for ages but I had to go out this week and shoot a dog fox that had taken one of those fancy lambs, cant remeber the make of it. Hopefully that will be the only one, the lambing has been real early this year and most sheep farms around here are about half way through lambing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shrek Posted March 2, 2008 Report Share Posted March 2, 2008 Never any harm layin off for a while i agree with tikka 223, i would prefer to shoot the vixen in june/july (and test my own skills out as a stalker/varminter as the vixens are always more wary when the cubs are out) Once the cubs are out and big enough to fend for themselves than shoot a vixen at this time of year and well .. we all know what would happen to the cubs down a hole at this time of year. Although they are out prey of choice and we all enjoy going after them at silly hours of the night they still deserve out utmost respect and a chance at gettin away! Good call tikka 223 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tulkyuk Posted March 2, 2008 Report Share Posted March 2, 2008 Its only fine to leave them if they dont bother you that much, - but if your ground has anything that the fox likes eat, IE if your ground has sheep, chickens, pheasants etc, then you have to shoot them at any time of year remember most of our shooting is by way of a gift from farmers / Gamekeepers and i dont think they would be happy if they knew we were leaving foxes on the ground to kill thier stock, just so we could get a few more shots later on in the year!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigun Posted March 2, 2008 Report Share Posted March 2, 2008 most of the farms i go on leave it up to me but if they get and lambs being taken they are soon on my case to get them gone ,and if i dont theres other blokes out there just waiting to take my place, plus take the shooting land of me ..my old shooting buddy would stop shooting foxs as soon as we had shot a vixon full of cubs..said it was shooting your own sport for next year i can see were he is coming from ..i enjoy my shooting and like to do a good job for the farmer thats why iv got so much land to go on .. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tikka 223 Posted March 2, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 2, 2008 remember most of our shooting is by way of a gift from farmers / Gamekeepers and i dont think they would be happy if they knew we were leaving foxes on the ground to kill thier stock, just so we could get a few more shots later on in the year!! A few of the farms i shoot on like to see a few about but leaves it to me how many and says he still likes to see a few about . Agreed if there taking livestock you have to do your part , but should also follow up with the cubs i feel . just so we could get a few more shots later on in the year! hand on heart if i never shot another fox it would not worrie me as long as there not taking livestock Im there to do a service not just for my own pleasure having watched them through a scope and not pulled the trigger . Try it one day you might be surprised Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redfox Posted March 2, 2008 Report Share Posted March 2, 2008 Tikka223 and shrek have it right, once the lambs are up and away, I leave it for a couple of months, there are plenty of crows and other vermin to shoot. Chickens should be locked up at night, a fox will travel several miles to get at them, so you can shoot all you want, but if not locked up they will go. ( sure as eggs are eggs or is that chickens to go!). I had a fox taking chickens in one place and it had a extra long white end to its tail so it stood out, farmer dropped the lamp so it got away. Went out a couple of nights later and it looked like the same one three and a half miles away, but not able ot shoot. was working around to the farm mentioned and saw it again a couple of miles nearer, finally shot it about 50 yds fom the chicken huts at the farm, he was delighted and left the huts open, four nights later he rang me, " you didnt get the right fox !! its in the big shed killing them now" . Its near by so I said keep out Im there in five mins. Grabbed shottie and dashed round, caught it coming out with a chicken and gave it a good dose of no6 shot, full choke, it actually knocked it back in the door. It was a another big dog with black tail. Like I said to John the farmer, these sheds smell like a chinese takeaway to charlie and they can smell it miles away, you have to shut the doors, simple, he has done for years now never lost any more but I killl 20-30 foxes every year on his patch Redfox Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
menial 1 Posted March 2, 2008 Report Share Posted March 2, 2008 Right could be in for some stick here . Its the time of year the vixens will be down with cubs and my personal feelings are to lay off them unless the farmer has problems then they will be sorted but will try to find the den and sort cubs out as well . Like i said these are my personal feelings and was wondering if anybody else backs off them for a bit ? Keep it nice boys Sorry ,but if you shoot fox for sport then you are priviliged, where I shoot, sporting estate and sheep farms, fox are vermin and are to be shot on sight. Do you fret if you shoot pregnant rabbits , crows with young in their nests, rats with young, don't ever lose sight of the reason we have permission to shoot fox and other vermin . You can have respect for your chosen quarry but if you start thinking this way it's time to take up paper punching and leave vermin control to those who will carry on getting the job done regardless of the time of year. As I've had to pick up 267 poults in a release pen where a fox has broken in I will never miss a chance when offered. Cubs perish from cold and dehydration in a very short time span . Fox have been persecuted for hundreds of years and still surprise us with the sheer numbers that reappear each year despite the fact that there are more people shooting them with better equipment than could ever have imagined possible 30 yrs ago. If you want seasons placed on vermin ,this is the kind of thinking that will bring more silly restrictions to the already end less hoops we have to jump through to go shooting with C/F's. Don't take this personally but just step back and think about what you are saying before making posts such as this. Pete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redfox Posted March 2, 2008 Report Share Posted March 2, 2008 I hear what your saying Menial, but the people who have the power to stop you shooting do not agree with your approach, I have had many release pens over the last 40 odd yrs and never since electric fencers came at a reasonable price have I lost poults to a fox. Apart from the fencer I always have snares set around the pens and create a guide to take them into the snare. I know plenty of keepers who do just the same and with other methods to prevent owls and raptors taking poults, only lose stock to bad weather and disease, certianly not to charlie. Redfox Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigyboy Posted March 2, 2008 Report Share Posted March 2, 2008 I dont see the point in hammering the that which promotes growth and vigour out of the buggers on cattle ground or crop ground there is no need for it you may as well give them a chance when they are breeding. I shoot on 3 dairy farms mostly rabbits but they ask me to keep the foxes under control but say they still like a few around Fair enough on sheep/game ground they do need constant work but personally I try to do most of it before they start breeding. You have to show some compassion and respect for the animal. Just out of interest menial1 what would have happedned to those 267 poults had the fox not have got them? I know its not nice to lose them that way but most of them would have been shot anyhow so your shooting the fox to save your poults which wil be shot anyhow, in a way your shooting foxes to preserve your pheasant sport so your shooting foxes for sport in my eyes, maybe I am wrong just how I see it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigyboy Posted March 2, 2008 Report Share Posted March 2, 2008 Also I will agree with redfox, keeping foxes out of pens is easy I dont rear poults but being a joiner and knwoing alot of shooting men I have put up a few pens for people and I always dig the wire about 8 inches under ground and put up electric fences, never had any problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest northernchris Posted March 2, 2008 Report Share Posted March 2, 2008 Craigy Lost poults means lost money simple really,on shoot day each bird shot will bring into the estate around £20-£25.The price of running a shoot nowadays has gone through the roof,margins are tighter than ever, so "control" of vermin is a BIG MUST.Like Pete said do we think about rats,rabbit etc with dependents when we shoot all year round?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
menial 1 Posted March 2, 2008 Report Share Posted March 2, 2008 I hear what your saying Menial, but the people who have the power to stop you shooting do not agree with your approach, I have had many release pens over the last 40 odd yrs and never since electric fencers came at a reasonable price have I lost poults to a fox. Apart from the fencer I always have snares set around the pens and create a guide to take them into the snare. I know plenty of keepers who do just the same and with other methods to prevent owls and raptors taking poults, only lose stock to bad weather and disease, certianly not to charlie. Redfox Unfortunately we have trees with preservation orders on and Toby has become adept at climbing. We use electric fence and snares but are still impressed at Charlies ingenuity but the tree huggers won't hear of having them pruned back despite the financial losses incurred. Fox has an amazing instinct for survival despite man's best attempt to eradicate them . For the record I have a large number of prints and paintings of fox at home and I have the greatest respect and admiration for fox both as an intelligent creature and adversary. Pete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigyboy Posted March 2, 2008 Report Share Posted March 2, 2008 I see where youre coming from Chris, I had thought of that but I was looking at it from a smaller syndicate point of view, fair enough its still money lost but you aint making money on that type of shoot however as said it isnt really that hard to keep them out but I suppose when they are out on the ground they are very vunerable. now mink they are a different kettle of fish to keep out, wee freggers get in everywhere, the smallest gap and there in there and they make a shocking hand of things. I suppose we all just look at it different I dont shoot for any big estate game shoots so I dont know what its like or the pressure to bring out as many birds as possible for the paying shooter. I suppose I am lucky I dont have any major problems with them I just chip away at them a few everynow and again and things seem to work out. To be honest my big problem is ravens, buzzards and greybacks, when the ewes are heavy pregnant sometimes they roll over and cant get off there backs the greybacks and ravens will be straight down as soon as there in distress first thing they do is go for the eyes, then the magpies come in after, they literally eat the ewe alive. This also happens with just born lambs. I can sort the greybacks and magpies but cant touch the ravens and buzzards the sheep farmer put more emphasise on sorting the crows and magpies than anything else they dont seem as concerned with the foxes though I did have to deal with one during the week that killed a lamb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alycidon Posted March 2, 2008 Report Share Posted March 2, 2008 With feed and wheat prices going through the roof last year most commercial shoots should be charging getting on for £30. My two semi DIY shoots costs without ground rent and minimal keeper costs were around £22/£23 a bird. . A Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest northernchris Posted March 2, 2008 Report Share Posted March 2, 2008 On my old estate one of our biggest problems was "martins" they make EVERYTHING else vermin wise look tame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigyboy Posted March 2, 2008 Report Share Posted March 2, 2008 On my old estate one of our biggest problems was "martins" they make EVERYTHING else vermin wise look tame. I know chris and everyone thinks they look cute they dont realise what they are like, I dont think we get pine martins here but they are pretty similar to mink/stoat weasel etc, nasty buggers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
menial 1 Posted March 2, 2008 Report Share Posted March 2, 2008 I dont see the point in hammering the that which promotes growth and vigour out of the buggers on cattle ground or crop ground there is no need for it you may as well give them a chance when they are breeding. I shoot on 3 dairy farms mostly rabbits but they ask me to keep the foxes under control but say they still like a few around Fair enough on sheep/game ground they do need constant work but personally I try to do most of it before they start breeding. You have to show some compassion and respect for the animal. Just out of interest menial1 what would have happedned to those 267 poults had the fox not have got them? I know its not nice to lose them that way but most of them would have been shot anyhow so your shooting the fox to save your poults which wil be shot anyhow, in a way your shooting foxes to preserve your pheasant sport so your shooting foxes for sport in my eyes, maybe I am wrong just how I see it. Pheasant poults are no different to chickens, they are a product that has to arrive at the customer to achieve their financial value. 267 poults was a for instance, ground nesting bird species also take a hammering when fox is not controlled. With the climatic changes we now have, the time that vixens may have dependent young has lengthened considerably, we had signs of death above earths as early as early February, as they don't have name tags on how could you possibly tell which earth which fox has come from when you still see lactating vixens as late as May . We've been through this same crap with munty/chinks, unwanted ,non indigenous species that some would have seasons enforced even though doe munties seem to be constantly carrying young. Pete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigyboy Posted March 2, 2008 Report Share Posted March 2, 2008 Pheasant poults are no different to chickens, they are a product that has to arrive at the customer to achieve their financial value. 267 poults was a for instance, ground nesting bird species also take a hammering when fox is not controlled. With the climatic changes we now have, the time that vixens may have dependent young has lengthened considerably, we had signs of death above earths as early as early February, as they don't have name tags on how could you possibly tell which earth which fox has come from when you still see lactating vixens as late as May . We've been through this same crap with munty/chinks, unwanted ,non indigenous species that some would have seasons enforced even though doe munties seem to be constantly carrying young. Pete. I see and respect your point Menial1. As a side about foxes breeding all year I shot a fox just after christmas that I would bet my life on was not long from leaving the earth, it was tiny and completely stupid came into hardly any calling, also last march I shot one that was definatley a very small young cub, they do seem to be breeding alot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
menial 1 Posted March 2, 2008 Report Share Posted March 2, 2008 I see and respect your point Menial1. As a side about foxes breeding all year I shot a fox just after christmas that I would bet my life on was not long from leaving the earth, it was tiny and completely stupid came into hardly any calling, also last march I shot one that was definatley a very small young cub, they do seem to be breeding alot. Cheers Craigy, the times when I'm bouncing around on the back of a pickup at stupid o'clock and -3 degrees it certainly doesn't feel like sport and regardless of size, gender or time of year we've put the time and effort in and will take the shot the moment it presents itself. It's just the way it is on estate/commercial shoots, no place for remorse or sympathy I'm afraid. This year the season on fallow does has been extended by a month and I'll bet there will be an awful of sad stalkers when they open them up and find fully formed large young inside, still wriggling and alive as they begin the gralloch. I'm sure this will cause more than a few to bring their doe season to an earlier self imposed end next year. I have to admit it's not particularly tasteful to myself either but I won't let sentiment stop me from continuing their management while we have such large numbers of deer. Pete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigyboy Posted March 2, 2008 Report Share Posted March 2, 2008 Cheers Craigy, the times when I'm bouncing around on the back of a pickup at stupid o'clock and -3 degrees it certainly doesn't feel like sport and regardless of size, gender or time of year we've put the time and effort in and will take the shot the moment it presents itself. It's just the way it is on estate/commercial shoots, no place for remorse or sympathy I'm afraid. This year the season on fallow does has been extended by a month and I'll bet there will be an awful of sad stalkers when they open them up and find fully formed large young inside, still wriggling and alive as they begin the gralloch. I'm sure this will cause more than a few to bring their doe season to an earlier self imposed end next year. I have to admit it's not particularly tasteful to myself either but I won't let sentiment stop me from continuing their management while we have such large numbers of deer. Pete. Pete that would be rough opening up a deer to find that, I am not all that soft myself but I think that would annoy me badly, but as you say in some cases it just has to be done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tulkyuk Posted March 2, 2008 Report Share Posted March 2, 2008 Im there to do a service not just for my own pleasure having watched them through a scope and not pulled the trigger . Try it one day you might be surprised. See thats were we differ - the places i shoot are the same as Menai, its not done for sport and cant be just looked at in a scope - you go and ask any gamekeeper and he/she will probably tell you the same part time foxing is no good, a fox is vermin , a very very good killer and will kill your pheasants, ducks, chicken etc. all year and even more so when they have young cubs to feed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tikka 223 Posted March 3, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 3, 2008 Good Pionts made from both side,s and have no problem with both sides . just like i said the farmer likes to see the odd one about and on one farm if i shoot a fox im off Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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