.223 loads for a Tikka T3 TAC 1:8 TWIST

[gbal]

Not for the first time, I've got to disagree with GBal and Bradders on this issue.

 

First, .223 Rem is perfectly compatible with 90gn bullets provided the chamber is designed to handle them, likewise rifling twist rate (1-7" to 1-7.25" needed, not the commonly stated 1-6.5" which is too fast). That makes the rifle rather specialised as it'll only sensibly handle 80s and 90s thanks to the large amount of freebore. However, that's no different from many cartridges - for instance .284 Win as used in competition rifles or many custom sporters is loaded way longer than its nominal SAAMI length and should never be used in a standard SAAMI chamber. With a resulting COAL of ~ 2.7 inches compared to the 223's standard 2.25-2.26", it is of course totally unsuited to magazine rifles built around the standard 223R / 5.56mm cartridges lengths and in particular is useless for the AR15 platform and similar designs. (It can however be used in standard 'short-action' bolt-action rifles in 'tactical' form that accept the .223 Rem AI magazine.)

 

Secondly, so .223 Rem won't match 6.5-284 ballistically? Well, there's a surprise! But neither will lots of great cartridges that are used in competition. For that matter, .338 Lapua will pee all over 6.5-284 in external ballistics .... and if you want to play stupid, let's advocate 20mm Oerlikon as it'll outperform any rifle cartridge I can think of! The reason for developing .223 Rem with heavies and 'super-heavies' is to make it competitive in restricted cartridge disciplines, that is the ICFRA regulated 'fullbore' prone rifle disciplines - Target Rifle, Palma Rifle, and F/TR which are restricted to .223 Rem and .308 Win.

 

In fact ICFRA rules limit .308 Win to bullets of 'less than 156gn weight', and .223 Rem to bullets of 'less than 81gn weight', but most national administrations allow any bullet weight for F/TR. There is a move to allow an extra 10gn latitude for .223 Rem in TR / Palma to make it more competitive in 'Target Rifle' with .308 Win allied to 155gn / 155.5gn bullets as most 80gn loads are not competitive at 1,000 yards.

 

Where 81gn + bullets are allowed (F/TR most countries, Canada in TR too), the 223/90 combination has shown itself to be the equal of a heavily loaded .308/155 combination. This particularly applies to TR in Canada which has many successful 223 users, Bob Pitcairn using it with great results in international events both as an individual and national team competitor.

 

Potential MVs? JLK and Berger 90gn VLDs can be driven easily to 2,850 fps plus in a 28-inch or longer barrel with a suitable chamber. When I used the Berger VLD in GB F/TR, my long-range match load produced 2,907 fps with an ES in the low teens and single-figure SD. It would shoot 0.25-0.35-MOA 100 yard groups and got me several national league stage medals, a 4th F/TR league round at Blair Atholl, 7th place in the GB F-Class Assoc league F/TR championship, and 17th F/TR in the F-Class European Championship all in 2011 when 185-210gn bullets were being widely used in .308 Win F/TR loads.

 

Also in 2011, I was a member of a 4-shooter scratch Scotland team put together by Paul Crosbie (who has just won the 2013 F/TR league championship incidentally) in a coached team shoot against US F/TR team members who came across to Scotland after beating Ireland in the revived Creedmoor Match on the then new Tullamore ranges. That was 2+15 each at 900, 1,000, and 1,100 yards coached by Hamish Hunter. Under his expert wind reading I got the 2nd highest aggregate score just behind Paul who was shooting .308 Win with 210s at a substantial MV over Viht N550. During the same long weekend, I won a 1,000 yard individual F/TR match in the preceding SRA Scottish Long Range meeting, the US national team shooters also entered alongside domestic competitors. In a 1,200 yard 'fun shoot' beforehand (actually 1,224 yards at Blair), the 223 kept every one of 10 consecutive shots within the 1,000 yard F-Class target 'four' ring, equivalent to less than 1.5-MOA all in a tight elevation pattern bar one three-quarter MOA low shot!

 

Here's how the two 90gn VLDs at 2,900 fps compare to .308 Win with 155s at 3,100 fps

 

90gn 0.224 VLD, G7 BC 0.281 (~0.295 if 'pointed') at 2,900 fps and 1,000 yards

 

out of the box - 1,454 fps at 1K, 7.2-MOA (75 inches) drift in a 10 mph crosswind

Pointed - 1,512 fps at 1K, 6.7-MOA (70 inches) drift in a 10 mph crosswind

 

 

155.5gn Berger BT Fullbore, G7 BC 0.237 (~0.245 if pointed)

 

out of the box - 1,371 fps at 1K, 8.2-MOA (86 inches) drift in a 10 mph crosswind

Pointed - 1,416 fps at 1K, 7.8-MOA (82 inches) drift in a 10 mph crosswind

 

 

The upsides using .223 Rem in these applications? Very easy to shoot in a heavy rifle due to negligible recoil. No need for 'big-foot' F/TR bi-pods due to much reduced recoil and torque. Reduced powder and bullet costs compared to .308 Win.

 

Downsides? very hard work to get the accuracy allied to MV and small spreads. Needs powder charge weight spreads under plus or minus 0.5gn. Everything has to be perfect requiring fully prepped brass, very consistent neck tension .... etc, etc. Some people cannot get it to work at all. Barrel must suit the bullet perfectly. Very limited bullet range - JLK and Berger VLD. 90gn Sierra MK is unsuitable for this application and the 90gn Berger LR BT produces more pressure so cannot be loaded to the same MVs. Berger has stopped production of this bullet anyway.

 

.308 Win is far less work. Moreover, if you must have the ultimate F/TR external ballistics, you can now load bullets weighing up to 230gn in the cartridge although the 200gn Berger Hybrid is increasingly seen as the ballistically optimal choice for the cartridge by US F/TR shooters.

 

Just to finish this off, have people heard of bullet design 'scaling'? That is, take an optimal design in one calibre and scale it up or down to other calibres? This is a standard reference tool for professional ballisticians. In rifle bullets, the first optimised match models in widespread production and use were the 139-142gn 0.264" models for 6.5mm calibre cartridges and their existence played a large part in 6.5-284 Norma becoming the cartridge to use in long-range prone rifle disciplines some 10 to 15 years ago.

 

Here are Bryan Litz's calculated optimal weights for scaled bullets starting with the 6.5mm 142gn Sierra MatchKing, US shooters' favourite long-range bullet in the 6.5-284 and similar:

 

.224" ~90gn

.243" - 112gn

.264" - 142gn (base design)

.284" - 177gn

.308" - 228gn

Laurie,the issue is not what to use if restricted -rather artificially-to 223 or 308.

Nor is it that some shooters-yourself preeminently-cannot do very well indeed,with these-and other ,cartridges,and have done.

 

All of what I said is entirely consistent with your final point from Briian Litz work,and why I didn't redo the math (s)-,but I also added the MVs that are needed for those bullet weight-the 308 needs to be doing some 2640 fps,and thats a lot of recoil (needing some 23+ lbs weight.compared to the 6.5 shooter at 16lb.No doubt some competitions would not allow that much weight.The 223 is similarly embarrassed-the 90 grain bullet needs 3270 fps,which I did give,and suggested was not something the newbie,or indeed casual club shooter etc should attempt to achieve...

 

That is the point-though some success might be achieved by exceptional shooters/wind readers,those skills would almost certainly have been more successfully deployed with something like a 6.5/142/2950,which is achievable without much downside.(or 7/175/2800) or 6/115/3065.

 

So anyone casually-or more seriously-wanting to push the 223 (and others) might as well be aware of these nettles,asI am sure you were.While a good big 'un (30)might have a chance,a good little 'un(223) will just have to give best to the very good middle 'un(6/6.5/7). Laws of physics and ballistics,as best known at the current time,simply can't be ignored.Of course,there is satisfaction to be gained from good performance from the 223,but it's relative to it's lesser potential.

As long as shooters know all this,fine-go play and enjoy.Heck,try the 17 for a real challenge,and you won't need a thousand yards.:-)

Gbal

[Laurie]

Hmmm ..... !!!

 

A rifle is a tool like any other and can only be judged in relation to the task it's to be used for not against other tools irrespective of what they're intended for. So, anybody contemplating a rifle and cartridge choice obviously has to take the purpose or discipline into account and formulate a response to it within a narrowly defined concept.

 

It's no good saying that the mandatory use of nominated cartridges is 'artificially restricted'. If you want to shoot TR or F/TR, and a lot of people do, you use .223 Rem or .308 Win. Equally, a lot of people like using a small, light recoiling cartridge rather than a more ballistically efficient 'big un' because it's more fun for them, or they shoot better with it. (A big issue in F/TR as even with an 8.25Kg all up weight, many people just cannot shoot .308 Win really well with heavies. It's why I and many others have returned to 155s although on paper they're inferior in the wind.)

 

I'm confused as to why you recommend a 6.5 shooting 139-142s. For general range use and anything goes club matches at shorter distances, many 6.5s are good choices, although the 6.5-284 and its ballistic equivalents needed to get 2,950 fps may not be the best. In fact for the typical club shooter who shoots a lot and shoot a lot of rounds each outing, it's a rather poor choice unless he or she contemplates regular barrel changes. On the other hand, 6.5-284 makes a very nice 600 and 1,000 yard Bench Rest round, but competitors' annual round counts are 300, 400 at most and there are only a couple of ranges in the UK that offer the facility. At shorter distances, a good smaller 6mm or 6.5 will give as good or better results and a loit better barrel life as well as being cheaper to feed in powder costs - hence the large number of people on this forum (Myself included) who've acquired a 6.5X47 Lapua cal rifle in the last couple of years. If it's a combination of long-range and anything goes, the 6.5's big brother, .284 Win is a better bet as the small increase in recoil is outweighed by the improvements in ballistics and barrel life, the .284 giving 2,000 rounds or more virtually doubling that of the 6.5mm version. If only performance counts, then the bigger sevens beat almost everything else in a mixed bag of conditions - hence the popularity of .284 Shehane, 7mm Rem SAUM and 7WSM in F-Class league rounds.

 

So far as recoil energy goes, I'm not sure you're taking powder charge weight into account as that's an integral part of the equation. Here's how it looks for .223 Rem v .308 Win v 6.5X55mm all using actual loads I've worked up and in an 18lb rifle:

 

.223 Rem (90gn bullet, 25.2gn charge weight, 2,907 fps MV) ............ 2.7 ft/lb

.308 Win (155gn bullet, 46.4gn charge weight, 3,054 fps MV) ........... 9.2 ft/lb

.308 win (185gn bullet, 46.3gn charge weight, 2,825 fps MV) ............ 10.0 ft/lb

6.5X55mm (139gn bullet, 48.2gn charge weight, 2,772 fps MV) ......... 6.8 ft/lb

 

As the 6.5-284 is significantly less efficient than the 6.5X55mm in straight internal ballistic / heat engine terms, it has a lower ft/lb ME produced per 1.0gn charge weight figure so will produce relatively more recoil than the extra 100-200 fps MV it will give would suggest. While it and other 6.5s are moderate recoil producers, it's still running at well over double that of the .223 with 90s.

 

(All of the above figures were produced by the Sierra Infinity program's recoil calculator function.)

 

For those who shoot off a bi-pod, it's not just the recoil values in ft/lbs or free recoil velocity that matter, but the torque produced. This is one reason why 223 Rem has its adherents in TR and F/TR as heavier recoiling / torquing cartridges are harder to control. Soembody was just commenting on this feature as a bunch of us watched a heavy bullet .308 shooter in the F-Class European Championship meeting last weekend. One bi-pod foot dug in noticeably on each shot and the other almost lifted off the turf. Where 'Open' shooters don't have their front-rests set up properly with correct bag-filling / hardness etc, one can often see a bounce / twist movement too despite the use of 22lb rifles.

[henryo]

I have to agree that the 90gr (Berger VLD or JLK only) are considerably better than the 80gr at long range but you need a really specialist setup (throat, barrel length, preferably a strong bolt gun with a tightly fitting firing pin, strong brass etc) to do them justice. They can be a royal PITA to get to shoot though especially with low enough ES (you pretty much have to weigh to the kernel).

 

Up to 600 yards I roughly use 25gr N140 or 26gr Varget for with 80MK/A-Max/VLD at about 2900fps. They are loaded to about 2.6".

 

Beyond that I go to 90JLKs (I found them more accurate than the bergers) with roughly 27gr N550 again at about 2900fps. They end up a bit longer (about 2.65"?). I reckon the G7 BC is about .27 from range data for the 90 JLKs - not quite as good as the bergers.

 

This is with a 30" Lilja 3 groove 7 twist. I reckon the barrel is starting to go downhill after (currently) about 1300 of these kinds of rounds.

[Laurie]

Henry,

 

I quite agree - why I've returned to .308 Win with 155s. I actually advise AGAINST 223 / 90 especially for those who aren't fanatical handloaders when I'm asked about it.

 

My point in response to previous opinions is twofold - that 90gn IS viable (and potentially worthwhile), although it must be in a properly set up and hence specialist rig. (But, aren't a lot of rifles and their uses described on this forum just that?) and that (2) if people want to try heavy bullet 223 at long ranges, don't knock it or discourage them as long as they know what they're potentially getting into.

 

So far as 'sensible' long-range 223 Rem choices are concerned, have a look at the 80.5gn Berger BT Fullbore, the 308 155.5's little brother. It can be driven to 3,100 fps or above in a good long-barrel target rifle and can give stunning accuracy. It's still a viable long-range bullet at anything over 3,000 fps.

 

Incidentally George,

 

I reckon your equivalent MVs for .224/90 are too pessimistic. Using Bryan Litz's G7 BCs and his program, the 224/90 VLD equivalent to your 0.264" Sierra MK at 2,950 fps is 3,130 fps.

 

Not that this is particularly viable or even desirable for the mouse gun cartridge, but is feasible in .22-250 Rem or .22 BR. The Canadians tried heavies in .22-250 for range use and got very good results at 1,000 yards, but only for ~1,000 rounds before the barrel throat wore out. (But ... that's pretty well what 6.5-284 Norma with 142 gives!)

[gbal]

Henry,

 

I quite agree - why I've returned to .308 Win with 155s. I actually advise AGAINST 223 / 90 especially for those who aren't fanatical handloaders when I'm asked about it.

 

My point in response to previous opinions is twofold - that 90gn IS viable (and potentially worthwhile), although it must be in a properly set up and hence specialist rig. (But, aren't a lot of rifles and their uses described on this forum just that?) and that (2) if people want to try heavy bullet 223 at long ranges, don't knock it or discourage them as long as they know what they're potentially getting into.

 

So far as 'sensible' long-range 223 Rem choices are concerned, have a look at the 80.5gn Berger BT Fullbore, the 308 155.5's little brother. It can be driven to 3,100 fps or above in a good long-barrel target rifle and can give stunning accuracy. It's still a viable long-range bullet at anything over 3,000 fps.

 

Incidentally George,

 

I reckon your equivalent MVs for .224/90 are too pessimistic. Using Bryan Litz's G7 BCs and his program, the 224/90 VLD equivalent to your 0.264" Sierra MK at 2,950 fps is 3,130 fps.

 

Not that this is particularly viable or even desirable for the mouse gun cartridge, but is feasible in .22-250 Rem or .22 BR. The Canadians tried heavies in .22-250 for range use and got very good results at 1,000 yards, but only for ~1,000 rounds before the barrel throat wore out. (But ... that's pretty well what 6.5-284 Norma with 142 gives!)

 

Laurie,just a couple of points-the Mvs etc I quoted are from Brian Litz publications.Whatever BCand therefore MV,we take for the 223 90g,as you say,above,even 3130 ('cf 'my' 3270) "is not particularly viable,or even desirable for the mouse gun"-(223 is so misdescribed).Is that not pretty well exactly what I'm saying? The discussion started in the context of (newbie) shooters wondering about 223 at 1000y.Your advice is therfore the same as mine,it will disappoint,unless it's a club barn door shoot-with typical equipment-and still isn't really on with more specialised gear.

As you say,there are a host of individual shooter variables-of course,butin a couple of paragraphs I was initially concerned mainly with external ballistics.In general,it's a bit easier to achieve higher BCs with the larger calibres.But of course BCs alon do not win matches,however modest,or put smiles on faces for the pure pleasure shooter.The actual performance difference between rifles typically used might be only 5%,probably more like 2% for more specialised rifles. Such things can be bought.But wind reading skill cannot.If such skills(and include recoil tolerance,etc etc) are equal ,the 2% or 5% advantage will show up aggregated over a season,but not necessarily every time shots are fired.

But if the skills are unequal,the lower (5 or 2%) ballistic performance rifle and shooter may come out ahead,if his/her skills are correspondingly bette than the other shooters,despite the latter's better equipment..That surely is just a given-money etc buys equipment,not skill,and there are individual skill differences in addition to. equipment .

One minor point,though I am sure Mark can make it for himself-indeed he already has-'compatible' is not the same as 'optimal'-I have no view on 80/90g etc-55g is compatible too,but not equal as a performance bullet,in this context.

The 6.5 /142/2950 is just a reference point.If the 6.5x47 Lapua can get 2950 fps with the same bullets,it will run the 6.5x284 very close in external ballistic terms-the whole point of doing the maths etc,with of course virtually identical pros and cons.The 3270(or even 31200)fps 223 will of course,burn out barrels even faster than the 6.5,another fact for the non competitive fun shooter to be aware,that is not usually emphasised....

 

Gbal

[That bald headed Geordie]

Not demeaning the fascinating comments from Gbal and Laurie on this subject, but on a lighter note.

Has anyone used a 'mouse gun' to shoot them pesky mices to pieces?

Do 'Cheese eating surrender monkies' use mouse guns at all?

However, I have witnessed Laurie shooting the .223 at Blair alongside Les Holgate with his straight 284 at 1000yds in difficult to read wind conditions. Laurie's wind reading skills and his mouse gun gave Mr Holgate a damned good thrashing and his ability to keep the bullet in the 4 ring was impresssive.

Now should I go for a new barrel for my Shehane, or build a .223 mousetrap?

[Laurie]

My sole concern on this issue, apart from trying to provoke a friendly argument being an awkward sod, is simply to ensure that the .223 is not 'written off' too lightly. Although I don't use the cartridge as often as I once did, I'm still very fond of the little beggar and feel pained when I hear people tell newcomers that it's OK for 300 or maybe 500 yards at most, or similar words and that what they really need is a 'proper cartridge' (by which the 'expert' usually means .308 with 168s or similar). After all, it's not that many years ago that the pioneers of US High-Power Service Rifle with thye .223 were being mocked and told that the AR15 would never compete with the 7.62mm M1 / M1A. (I noticed recently that some American clubs have introduced a semi-historic class for M1As so they can be shot competitively again!)

 

Incidentally, one needn't think of .223/90 as a purely long-range tool. As part of my 'affordable F/TR rifle' journalism project, The Gun Pimp put a Bartlein 1-7.5 inch twist barrel onto a formerly .204 Ruger cal Savage 12 LRPV right bolt / left port varmint rifle for me. This was a barrel I'd ordered long before and took 18 months to arrive, so came too late for my 'main rifle'. It's fairly light profile by F/TR rifle standards (standard Palma or similar). To avoid the LRPV being over-barrelled / nose heavy in the H-S Precison synthetic sporter stock we cropped it at 26 inches. It was chambered for 90s using the reamer that did my long-range 223 F/TR rifle, so it'll shoot both 80s and 90s. It shoots a dream with Berger 90gn LRBTs - really accurate, no recoil, and is shot off a Versa-Pod folding bi-pod. This uses a modest load of Viht N150 giving around 2,650 fps if I remember right. Very untemperamental, modest pressures, and it should give excellent case and barrel life. It should shoot out to 800 yards competitively, but I've only shot it from 200 to 600 in Diggle comps and got 1st to 3rd F/TR places with it. Even at that modest velocity, it'll better or at worst match 308 ballistics with 155s in all but out and out maxi-pressure long-range F/TR rifle loads.

 

Les

 

I think the cheese eating surrender monkeys do use the mouse gun cartridge since their FAMAS assault rifle is 5.56X45mm. Whether they shoot mice with it is more debatable. (Old and bad taste Historic Arms shooters' joke. Q: Why are all French military rifles so ugly? A: So the user doesn't feel bad about denting / scratching it when he drops the rifle on the ground on surrendering.)

[gbal]

My sole concern on this issue, apart from trying to provoke a friendly argument being an awkward sod, is simply to ensure that the .223 is not 'written off' too lightly. Although I don't use the cartridge as often as I once did, I'm still very fond of the little beggar and feel pained when I hear people tell newcomers that it's OK for 300 or maybe 500 yards at most, or similar words and that what they really need is a 'proper cartridge' (by which the 'expert' usually means .308 with 168s or similar). After all, it's not that many years ago that the pioneers of US High-Power Service Rifle with thye .223 were being mocked and told that the AR15 would never compete with the 7.62mm M1 / M1A. (I noticed recently that some American clubs have introduced a semi-historic class for M1As so they can be shot competitively again!)

 

Incidentally, one needn't think of .223/90 as a purely long-range tool. As part of my 'affordable F/TR rifle' journalism project, The Gun Pimp put a Bartlein 1-7.5 inch twist barrel onto a formerly .204 Ruger cal Savage 12 LRPV right bolt / left port varmint rifle for me. This was a barrel I'd ordered long before and took 18 months to arrive, so came too late for my 'main rifle'. It's fairly light profile by F/TR rifle standards (standard Palma or similar). To avoid the LRPV being over-barrelled / nose heavy in the H-S Precison synthetic sporter stock we cropped it at 26 inches. It was chambered for 90s using the reamer that did my long-range 223 F/TR rifle, so it'll shoot both 80s and 90s. It shoots a dream with Berger 90gn LRBTs - really accurate, no recoil, and is shot off a Versa-Pod folding bi-pod. This uses a modest load of Viht N150 giving around 2,650 fps if I remember right. Very untemperamental, modest pressures, and it should give excellent case and barrel life. It should shoot out to 800 yards competitively, but I've only shot it from 200 to 600 in Diggle comps and got 1st to 3rd F/TR places with it. Even at that modest velocity, it'll better or at worst match 308 ballistics with 155s in all but out and out maxi-pressure long-range F/TR rifle loads.

 

Les

 

I think the cheese eating surrender monkeys do use the mouse gun cartridge since their FAMAS assault rifle is 5.56X45mm. Whether they shoot mice with it is more debatable. (Old and bad taste Historic Arms shooters' joke. Q: Why are all French military rifles so ugly? A: So the user doesn't feel bad about denting / scratching it when he drops the rifle on the ground on surrendering.)

 

 

Les,get a better mousetrap-the 6BR-I'll show you mine,if you show me yours,though I''m keeping my 223s.

 

Not sure about this Lebel libel-it would take Somme proving!

 

Now,to less serious points,and perhaps a resolution of differences ,Laurie.

I don't see any 300...maybe 500 y being mentioned...I put the 223s performance at 750,given twist/bullets etc,attainable by the so so shooter (me) so long as the targets were not smaller than footballs,I think-and confessed to pretty successful knocking down of falling men targets even in a fairy stiff wind,wwith several 223s(light sporter,Aug,remington and sako varminters-with modest ammo too-radway green and woff).I have an enhanced respect for it-wish I could get the 222 so barreled to see what it would do-a bit less,of course. Y concern was to avoid generalising what an expert shooter and wind reader with a reasonably developed load and non standard rifle could do,from what the tyro new club shooter could reasonably hope for -and I think that acceptable accurate performance in wind at 1000y is asking too much of both components here.....

I understand Laurie's view too-the 223 is more capable than just a 400 y rifle,but that wasn't ever the issue here...we might just agree to differ as to which advice is the most reasonable -I see it as a good shootable mid range cartridge,say 750,but not at very small sentient targets,but more likely to disappoint if pushed to 1000y,if we want say 2moa accuracy,from the sort of rifles likely to be used.

I think we both accept the Litz type external ballistics-and agree that individual shooter differences can come into play.I don't accept that the 308 with 168s is THE tool of choice,either,nor is it very pleasant to shoot,compared too eg 6BR,but it is likely to do a bit better in average hands than the 223.

But let those who want to find out for themselves go forth and shoot.Barn doors will be hit,and holes will be in the black too.Twas ever thus......it's just the ratios that change and vary.....Bon Chance,messeurs!

 

Gbal

[henryo]

Shot sticks the day before (Sunday) the "storm" at 900 yards and managed to keep the vast majority of 50 shots within a 2MOA square. Windage was anywhere from 8 to 12MOA. When the wind got up you could see the flag poles bending. Interesting how you get "vertical wind" too where your elevation changes over time because the ground is not at all flat.

 

As a side note I did actually pick up some .22-250 AI competition dies off of a fella on here. When I get the money to do something silly I intend to have a rifle put together for the 90s. Should get 3200fps easily with single base powders (I imagine something like H4831/N160/N165). I just hope the bullets hold together!

[Laurie]

I should have made it plain I wasn't referring to you George or your post, rather the sort of advice that is regularly given out on firing points and in range houses. Even amongst very sensible and knowledgeable shooters, there is often a serious and sincere disbelief that the 223 can be competitive at longer ranges.

 

Forget 90s and their potential problems. Berger has fairly recently introduced the 0.224" 80.5gn LRBTHP 'Fullbore' bullet specifically designed for long-range performance for Palma, Target Rifle and F/TR etc .223 Rem shooters who are affected by the 'Less than 81gn' rule. It has a G7 BC of 0.234 according to Berger Bullets which in effect means Mr. Litz since he works for them nowadays.

 

That's the same BC in all but a marginal 0.001 point or two as the best of the 0.308" dia. 155s - the 155.5gn Berger BT, 155gn Berger Hybrid, Lapua Scenar and Dyer HBC. It beats the two Sierra MatchKings old and new, the latter by a little, the older model by a lot. So, with similar BCs, the issue is (1) velocity, (2) getting it to shoot well. People I know who use the bullet claim it's as untemperamental and easy to tune as its bigger 155.5gn 308 stablemate. I was with Adam Bagnall a year or two back when he tested loads in an RPA .223 Rem that gave not too far short of 3,200 fps MVs, but that's not a level I'd contemplate aiming for. In a 28-inch or longer barrel match rifle, I'd expect the same as I wish to achieve with 308 Win 155.5gn LR loads, around the 3,050 fps mark.

 

Adam, who is an EXCEPTIONAL F/TR competitor - he has won league rounds at every GB F-Class venue at least once and has been GB F/TR champion more than once - told me he shot a 20 round 1,000 yard 'possible' at Bisley with this bullet at around 3,100 fps in a practice session and I've every reason to believe him. Adam doesn't like 90s in the cartridge, but reckons it's great little long-range performer with the 80.5gn model. Adam is also not a fan of case preparation - buy Lapua, chamfer the mouth and load it is his philosophy - and generally uses charges straight from an RCBS 1500 Charge Master, so it's not a get the charges consistent to the last couple of kernels job either. (I'd still want to do this with 1,000 yard 223 Rem. ammo though as a 0.1gn variance equals around 10 fps MV change, so a typical 0.20-0.25gn charge range throws 20-25 fps spreads in before you get into case neck tension and other variables. This hassle factor is one reason I've moved back to .308 Win.)

 

The chamber has to be matched to the bullet, but being shorter than the 90s, will be much more flexible allowing 69s to 75s to work well too if desired.

[henryo]

Interesting will certainly be giving that bullet a go (80.5gr Berger). I have managed to get over 3100fps out of the 80gr bullets with a compressed load of N550 - about 28gr at modest pressures.

[gbal]

Shot sticks the day before (Sunday) the "storm" at 900 yards and managed to keep the vast majority of 50 shots within a 2MOA square. Windage was anywhere from 8 to 12MOA. When the wind got up you could see the flag poles bending. Interesting how you get "vertical wind" too where your elevation changes over time because the ground is not at all flat.

 

As a side note I did actually pick up some .22-250 AI competition dies off of a fella on here. When I get the money to do something silly I intend to have a rifle put together for the 90s. Should get 3200fps easily with single base powders (I imagine something like H4831/N160/N165). I just hope the bullets hold together!

Thanks for some shooting data/results,Henryo. That's not too shabby at all-wonder where the minority of other shots went. To be really fair we have to include them all....but I note your 2moa at 900, which is not too far from my general ballpark estimate,of 2 moa at 1000,as being realistic.

Good luck with the 22/250AI if you eventually go that route-but have a look at some others on Accurate Shooter -eg 6BR.

 

Gbal

[gbal]

OK,thanks for clarification,Laurie-though I was pretty sure that since we both use the Brian Litz bible,we were not in any ballistic jehad!!Far from it-as I said,just coming in from somewhat different ends of the pendulum swing.

Shooting two very different-well same 1/8-223s has changed my view,somewhat-I daresay the 222 etc would perform so much better too,with fast twists and so on-and the better bullets now available.Some clubhouse dis no doubt derives from experience in the old 22cf days,and even early military history.Youngsters of course have no such inhibitions or experiences-as I've said before,my lifetime search for a 22 middlestead is now just nostalgia driven,as even an old twist 243 with 58 g will do it,with no fuss.(let alone 1000y with fast twist a 115s).

Your informative news about the new Berger just reinforces this-and closes the 'gap' with bradders'74g Berger comments-ballistic performance is moving ahead all the time.Wind reading skills for most remain,relatively,in the doldrums,as it were,though some are way ahead of the rest here-and win much more often,with similar-if state of the art-gear.

There is much satisfaction to be gained for most-esp newer shooter-at club/informal level downing falling men type/size targets at say 700yards,and this is realistically attainable,and the club house poo-poo pundits will just have to accept the evidence of their eyes....when some whippersnapper shoots 10" groups at that sort of range,maybe better. A shooter made of the right stuff(another more psychologically slanted discussion!) should be able to move on to 1000,and not be too phased by his/her 223 being edged out by other calibres,even out of the box 308Remingtons shooting 1moa,sometimes half that in benign conditions.They of course will be similarly well behind the serious stuff.

But at more likely club shooter,and for the fortunate field shooter,1000y is not the modal distance,and the 223 is such an easy cartridge to handle,it is to be encouraged,for all its simple ,but sometimes surprsing,virtues.Good fun is to be had,for many of us,with rifles that can hit golf balls at 200,tennis balls at 400,and footballs at ...700-or rather targets of that general size,otherwise it gets a little expensive! A decent 223 can do that,not as well as,say,the 6BR,but one can't buy them in the way 223 choices are available in local gun shops. It's way better than some think,and in expert hands-or rather wind reading eyes,it can be as good as those experts have demonstrated.

Vive le vingt vingt six,as our Nato allies say (and yes,I know its not identical,it's just a sly way of hinting that the ammo for 5.56 seldom exploits the full potential of the 223 for accuracy,at 1000y-or 700...but some detractors still use the 55g versions,so education..as well as liberty/egality/fraternity!,mes amis.);-)

 

Gbal

[Laurie]

.222 Rem is used at mid ranges in some European countries with heavy fast-twist barrels. This stems from bans on the civilian use of 'military cartridges'. It's very difficult to own a .223 or .308 in Spain, very easy by our standards to own a rifle in a 'sporting calibre'.

[bradders]

This thread is starting to drift away somewhat from the original topic.

My experience with shooting 80's has always been with SMK's and JLK's.

I also base my theories and findings around real world barrel lengths, and not some impractical, overly long scaffold tube!

 

As I have said before, if you compare a 80 SMK to a 90 SMK, you can not get enough speed out of the 90 in a service rifle length barrel to gain any ballistic advantage over an 80.

I've never compared them to a 6.5 cal bullet, so I don't know where that one has come from.

 

One last thing, I personally think the cheese eating surrender stuff should stop.

This isn't the place for ridiculous phrases such as you would find on some American websites.

Even on those it is looked down on these days, especially as the French have been fighting and dying alongside our allies in Afghanistan for several years, and are in fact taking the lead in the war in Mali.

[Laurie]

I also base my theories and findings around real world barrel lengths, and not some impractical, overly long scaffold tube!

 

As I have said before, if you compare a 80 SMK to a 90 SMK, you can not get enough speed out of the 90 in a service rifle length barrel to gain any ballistic advantage over an 80.

I've never compared them to a 6.5 cal bullet, so I don't know where that one has come from.

 

 

Mark,

 

there's a subjective judgement (barrel length) How do you define 'practical' or 'impractical'. I'm very happy and willing to accept your judgements on what specifications suit your discipline(s) which involve service type rifles that need to be handy in vari-positional shooting, but there are others with very different needs. I know you were on Century Range on Sunday for CSR, but less than three quarters of a mile away were around 150 guys and the occasional woman on Stickledown competing in an international comp (with GB winning three 'Golds') and not a barrel length under 28 inches in sight. Neither spec is 'right' or 'wrong' in abstract as it's the contexct that's important.

 

As I've said before, the 90gn Sierra is a near waste of space and metal. It's no good as long-range bullet as it can't be driven fast, and in a 16 or 20-inch AR barrel it offers no improvement over an 80. The 90s worth using amount to a mere three models, one of which was recently withdrawn, so it's a very small pool. There is more use of very heavy and/or very long-range use of the little cartridge in both the US and Canada where 308 Win is not automatically seen as the only cartridge of choice for 'restricted' disciplines, so there is a good market for the best of the 80s, which really means the 80.5gn Berger and some for the two 90gn VLDs in this context. In your shoes, I wouldn't be buying the 80.5 - a superb bullet but unlikely to offer any huge (or maybe even small) benefits over the 80gn SMK out to 600 yards and costing twice as much. I was long an 80gn Sierra user myself and started F-Class shooting maybe 10 or 12 years ago in the very early days on big TR size targets when F was F was F with no restricted F/TR class. I once had a bunch of Diggle guys who'd just come out of the butts for the lunch break in a 1,000 yard match come up and ask if it was really true that I'd been shooting a 223 on their target - they just couldn't believe you could reliably hit the black at this distance with the cartridge. (That was with an AR straight-pull too, albeit with a 26-inch barrel.) The 80 Sierras behaved magnificently even though they were subsonic at 1,000, so you had to keep asking for the target to be pulled.

 

having found 'CSR crowds' twice at Bisley in recent months while there to practice to practice or compete with the GB F/TR team, my sole view is that it's great that there are two such successful and growing disciplines living side by side. We have to respect each other's disciplines and the equipment each uses even if it's not necessarily what we'd currently choose or buy, not that there's no crossover between them anyway. (The previous time I was at Bisley alongside lots of CSR shooters was just before the Imperial when I bumped into Phil Gibbons there for the CSR weekend who I know / think of as a Diggle F/TR and Bench rest competitor, but has recently 'defected' to your side he says.)

 

My sole point in this debate is to ensure that people don't unecessarily write the 223 off for longer range precision shooting. I've converted the Gun Pimp who told me I was wasting my time with a 223 F/TR rifle until it shot a five point something inch group in one of his 1,000 yard Diggle BR comps and won a few GB F League stage medals for me. It's a challenge to make it work well - much more so than 308 - but that's part of the fun for silly, awkward old beggars like myself.

[dannywayoflife]

Laurie is the 80 Amax not worth using? As it has a litz BC of .231

[Laurie]

Danny,

 

perfectly as long as your barrel likes it. I've maybe been unlucky with this bullet, but while I've had great results in several rifles with the 75gn A-Max ( a great short to mid-range performer and it can be driven VERY fast), I've yet to own a barrel that really performs with the 80gn model. I used to think it was maybe that a 1-8" twist was marginal for the bullet, but two 1-7s haven't liked it either. So, I've largely given up on it.

 

There are few 'bad' match bullets around these days, but I have a growing conviction that every few (sometimes many) years an outstanding model arrives that's somehow has an edge over the others - easy to tune, performs better than the BC suggests, copes with trans and subsonic speeds at long ranges ......... etc, etc.

 

The 80gn 224 SMK falls into that category, likewise the original 308 155 Palma SMK (not such a fan of its #2156 successor). The 308 Berger 155.5 and 185 BTs are definitely in it (not sure about Hybrids ... not convinced). I think, can't say more than that, that the 80.5gn Berger may end up in this special pedrformance category.

 

That's solely for long-range precision shooting of course. Bradders and Baldie would likely add the 224 69gn SMK to the list for their kind of competition as well as others. (I'm increasingly reckoning the .264 123gn Lapua Scenar might be in there for smaller 6.5mm cartridges.)

[dannywayoflife]

I've yet to try the 80's but know someone who launches them very fast in a savage 1-7" I use the 75's at present but mean to try the 80's at some point.

 

Oh I've tested the ramshot wildbore in the 223 now and I've got to say its a great powder. I developed several loads yesterday at the Carlton moor tunnel with ease the best group was about .25-.3" (not had the calipers on it yet. And should be very fast as its a stout charge