triggersqueezer Posted October 18, 2013 Report Share Posted October 18, 2013 i'm looking for a bit of advice please guys.currently i full length size,i read somewhere that by full length sizing all my cases are pushed back to the same dimensions and there for more consistant.the theory being if you only neck size some may expand more than others giving different preasure from case to case (allthough very minor). the more i mooch around the net trying to learn i often find the norm to be to neck size and bump the shoulder back say 1 thou at each firing.now my thinking is if i do this my first firing fireforms my brass then i get say 2-3 shots before i need to full length so the round will chamber.now surley you first fire form shot and your 5th fl sized shot are not going to have the advantage of your 2nd and 3rd making your rounds less consistanr ?or am i missing something? or to put it another way by fl sizing therefor fireforming each time am i missing a link to better accuracy? any thoughts and advice would be much appreciated. mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1967spud Posted October 18, 2013 Report Share Posted October 18, 2013 give us a ring mike and well have a chat as there are many issues there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GarethM Posted October 18, 2013 Report Share Posted October 18, 2013 Mike, After a lot of years, I am at the same point as you. There is quite a lot of debate on AccurateShooter, for example: http://forum.accurateshooter.com/index.php?topic=3743466.msg35841339#msg35841339 which Laurie contributed to. This might help http://www.sinclairintl.com/.aspx/lid=16134/GunTechdetail/Setting-up-a-Full-Length-Sizing-Die- Personally, I have asked Les to anneal some cases. I will re-prep them and put 10 to one side. These will be fired then neck-sized only for the next two outings. They will become my baseline for measurement. Good luck Gareth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcampbellsmith Posted October 18, 2013 Report Share Posted October 18, 2013 Mike, After a lot of years, I am at the same point as you. There is quite a lot of debate on AccurateShooter, for example: http://forum.accurateshooter.com/index.php?topic=3743466.msg35841339#msg35841339 which Laurie contributed to. This might help http://www.sinclairintl.com/.aspx/lid=16134/GunTechdetail/Setting-up-a-Full-Length-Sizing-Die- Personally, I have asked Les to anneal some cases. I will re-prep them and put 10 to one side. These will be fired then neck-sized only for the next two outings. They will become my baseline for measurement. Good luck Gareth Gareth. Won't you be comparing apples with pears? Surely you need to develop a load for each sizing approach? Regards JCS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
triggersqueezer Posted October 18, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 18, 2013 thanks to all so far spud your a gent and allways helpfull.gareth i looked at your links bud very usefull,as i'm a hunter and its only a 223 so at lr wind will make all the difference ,it looks like full length bushing dies (as i'm doing)is the best way to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pork chop Posted October 18, 2013 Report Share Posted October 18, 2013 mike all i do is fl size bump them back two thou.neck size/fl don't mean a thing if you don't call that wind correctly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbal Posted October 18, 2013 Report Share Posted October 18, 2013 mike all i do is fl size bump them back two thou.neck size/fl don't mean a thing if you don't call that wind correctly Absolutely-Fl/neck is more about case life,though neck might have a very slight accuracy advantage(like .1moa),and FL might feed a bit more smoothly-both under field conditions.Any diffs swamped by wind errors,as for most other factors! Gbal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gun Pimp Posted October 18, 2013 Report Share Posted October 18, 2013 thanks to all so far spud your a gent and allways helpfull.gareth i looked at your links bud very usefull,as i'm a hunter and its only a 223 so at lr wind will make all the difference ,it looks like full length bushing dies (as i'm doing)is the best way to go. Wow - I can't believe how obsessed you guys are with your reloading! I've shot benchrest for 20 years and shoot 100, 600 and 1000 yards. I always full-length size. The main reason - I want my guns to run slick - no stiff bolt-opening etc. If you lay out the money for a custom rifle - built to benchrest standards - there will be zero run-out on the chamber. If you have a factory rifle, the run-out will likely be 'unacceptable' - to put it kindly (by benchrest standards). This is what you pay for when you have a custom rifle built. So, when you fire your brass in a factory rifle, the case will be distorted. By how much it's distorted will depend on the chamber run-out. If you just neck-size, you will be now using a distorted case - obviously not good for accuracy. Ever heard of 'indexing'? This was a method some shooters used at one time to put the distorted case back in the chamber the same way it came out. When I made my first foray into benchrest with a factory rifle many years ago, I tried it. Not easy. At that time a few of us were exploring accuracy with neck-sizing dies and factory rifles. We eventually discovered full-length sizing gave better results. Bushing-dies are another benchrest spin-off. We use bushing-dies because we neck-turn. So that the brass in the case-neck is absolutely concentric. When we 'neck' the brass with a bushing die, we know that the resulting hole will be consistent case to case and bullet-grip will be consistent and perfectly concentric in the chamber-neck. If you don't neck-turn your brass and you use a bushing-die the 'resulting hole' will vary slightly - obviously. The best way to prep. your brass if you aren't neck-turning (and don't neck-turn with a standard chamber - it will be counter-productive) is to full-length-size but REMOVE the expander-ball from your die. Then, set your neck diameter using a neck-expander mandrel (Spud'll have 'em). That way, you'll get your necks as good as you can for consistent bullet seating/grip and your full-length sized case will be as true as it can be. But don't expect to fully 'straighten your brass - the force used to distort it will not be reversed with your hand-press! I just wish a few of you guys who are interested in accuracy would come and shoot benchrest occasionally - you'll find out just how good your rifle and reloads really are. More importantly you'll find out how to make it better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
triggersqueezer Posted October 18, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 18, 2013 thanks vince my pet load was good enough at one point but it has opened a tad and i'm just starting to find out why.when it is back on i would love to try benchrest just for the experience.i dont ever mind coming last providing i dont embaress myself this was my 100 yard group since then it has opened and i know it is my home loading.if i get it back i'll try benchrest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
triggersqueezer Posted October 18, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 18, 2013 thanks vince my pet load was good enough at one point but it has opened a tad and i'm just starting to find out why.when it is back on i would love to try benchrest just for the experience.i dont ever mind coming last providing i dont embaress myself this was my 100 yard group since then it has opened and i know it is my home loading.if i get it back i'll try benchrest. mike all i do is fl size bump them back two thou.neck size/fl don't mean a thing if you don't call that wind correctly pork chop no offence but i have seen your home loads and i'm looking to go forwards not backwards.i wanted advice from more experienced members thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
triggersqueezer Posted October 18, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 18, 2013 thanks vince my pet load was good enough at one point but it has opened a tad and i'm just starting to find out why.when it is back on i would love to try benchrest just for the experience.i dont ever mind coming last providing i dont embarass myself this was my 100 yard group since then it has opened and i know it is my home loading.if i get it back i'll try benchrest. mike all i do is fl size bump them back two thou.neck size/fl don't mean a thing if you don't call that wind correctly pork chop no offence but i have seen your home loads and i'm looking to go forwards not backwards.i wanted advice from more experienced members thanks Absolutely-Fl/neck is more about case life,though neck might have a very slight accuracy advantage(like .1moa),and FL might feed a bit more smoothly-both under field conditions.Any diffs swamped by wind errors,as for most other factors!Gbal gbal thanks mate could not agree more Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pork chop Posted October 18, 2013 Report Share Posted October 18, 2013 just for that i,m going to destroy you on sunday Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
triggersqueezer Posted October 18, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 18, 2013 just for that i,m going to destroy you on sunday ok but then can we do some shooting .can i gauge how much i bump back with a bushing die? also it might rain sunday so i'll look on i'm as gay as the day is long .com for your message saying your not going Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1967spud Posted October 18, 2013 Report Share Posted October 18, 2013 only with a headspace gauge mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
triggersqueezer Posted October 18, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 18, 2013 looks like i need to speak to you again later mark,cheers buddy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gun Pimp Posted October 18, 2013 Report Share Posted October 18, 2013 triggersqueezer - no one would argue with that group and the guys who are currently in Australia at the World Benchrest Championships would kill for 20, five-shot groups like that. Occasionally, we all have exceptionally good groups - and exceptionally bad. It happens to us all in benchrest competition but, the last thing I would look at is my reloading technique - for it will be the one thing that HASN'T changed. However, lots of things can and do change - with every shot sometimes. Wind-reading errors are always the most common - and, if you don't have wind-flags when you test then you are in the lap of the gods - how do you know if it was you, your equipment or the wind? I've seen shooters blame all sorts for 'that flyer' but it's almost always THE WIND! The other great variables are consistent set-up - shot to shot, trigger-release, tired brass, dirty barrel. But, that's what shooting benchrest does for you - eliminates the variables - so it's just you and the wind! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
triggersqueezer Posted October 18, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 18, 2013 vince i have a very light trigger and my cleaning is after every outing.i choose still days if i can to min the wind effect.at the egg shoot this year i went for the head shot with 100% confidence but the errors were vertical at 100 i have had much better vertical at 3 and 5 ??my gut instinct is fps variable through home loads or neck tension.on the 100 i saw the hole and made a .25 moa down but at the end of the day they should have all been in at that range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
triggersqueezer Posted October 18, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 18, 2013 don't ask about the 500 wind call Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gun Pimp Posted October 18, 2013 Report Share Posted October 18, 2013 don't ask about the 500 wind call Three shots on paper at 500 yds is good enough! You wind call error is not much more than a half MOA - don't know many (any?) who can call it better than half MOA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
triggersqueezer Posted October 18, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 18, 2013 thanks vince when i shot the 600 a few weeks ago in 15-20 mph winds i came 2nd from bottom so much to learn.trigger time needed at diggle . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
triggersqueezer Posted October 18, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 18, 2013 i have been working on some hornady brass this week and i have done as much as i can.i'm thinking short range sub 400 it would do.i had a flyer at 200 .the group was sub " but the flyer was out side this.the flash holes on hornady brass seem off centre and the de burr too just locates in the hole that is there.would an off center flash hole cause this? normally i use lapua for longer ranges but was just experimenting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GarethM Posted October 18, 2013 Report Share Posted October 18, 2013 Gareth. Won't you be comparing apples with pears? Surely you need to develop a load for each sizing approach? Regards JCS I don't think so, but could be wrong... 3 firings with a good load, then neck sizing only should push the shoulders as far forward as they can go. If I then measure these cases, I can set the die to bump the shoulders back appropriately If I have got this wrong, please advise. In the past I have just screwed the full-length die as per the manufacturers instructions, this is all new to me. Gareth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pork chop Posted October 18, 2013 Report Share Posted October 18, 2013 ok but then can we do some shooting .can i gauge how much i bump back with a bushing die? also it might rain sunday so i'll look on i'm as gay as the day is long .com for your message saying your not going don't worry buddy im going its just to much fun out shooting you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pork chop Posted October 18, 2013 Report Share Posted October 18, 2013 mike,i take it you have a comparator body for your vernier as i have a spare bump gauge you can use Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
triggersqueezer Posted October 18, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 18, 2013 mike,i take it you have a comparator body for your vernier as i have a spare bump gauge you can usecheers bud but i dont have a shoulder comparator just oal so time to chat to spud. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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