Shootist Posted July 19, 2013 Report Share Posted July 19, 2013 New to me but previously owned Savage Model 12 F/TR .308. I've been down the range a couple of times now with some reloads trying it out at 110 yards just for the set up. Of the admittedly limited number of loads I've tried, it refuses to shoot any much under an inch, although it seems to shoot pretty much anything under an inch! This seems to me to be a little bit poor.Here's the list of loads:150 grain Sierra MK - 40grains N140 - 44gn N140155 grain Scenar - 44gn N140 - 46.2gn N140168 grain Sierra MK - 41 gn N140 - 42gn N140155 grain Sierra Palma (2156) 46.2 N140COL varies according to bullet, measured with Hornady COL measure, but never exceeds 2.8", which seems a little short.Some knowledgeable input would be appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dustyman Posted July 19, 2013 Report Share Posted July 19, 2013 Have you tried it with any lap factory to see if it shoots on those to check consistency ? Lap 168 grains factory shot very well in my savage . Other than that I have to bow to the knowledge of others on here but can only say that 168 gr shot very well over h4895 . Cheers Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gun Pimp Posted July 19, 2013 Report Share Posted July 19, 2013 I'd work with the 155 Lapua Scenar and Vit 140. If you can afford 'em - use the 'L' version bullet. You need to find out the max. load then step back about half a grain and look for your accuracy load. Seat just off the rifling - about ten thou. I assume you're using Lapua brass........ I've tested a few of these rifles and they'll usually shoot around half an inch with good handloads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin jalland Posted July 19, 2013 Report Share Posted July 19, 2013 I used to use RL15 46gr berger 155.5 and had some vert good results . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foxing2night Posted July 19, 2013 Report Share Posted July 19, 2013 Your loads seem to be a bit on the low side?? Follow what Vince has said, but work up slowly My 308 likes 46g of 140 with a 155g bullet, high end load running at 2950fps 45g of varget was a lot nicer to shoot and deadly accurate Darrel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunnery Posted July 20, 2013 Report Share Posted July 20, 2013 24" accuracy international 308 46.6 tr140 same as vit 140 155grn sierra matchking 2156 col 2800 loves them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1066 Posted July 20, 2013 Report Share Posted July 20, 2013 I have a couple of the F 12's with the 3 screw target action and find the torque of the rear action quite critical. My Savages are 6br and 6.5x284 so can't help on the loads. You may find this article interesting. http://www.accurateshooter.com/technical-articles/savage-action-screw-torque-tuning/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveT Posted July 20, 2013 Report Share Posted July 20, 2013 I would also look at other factors... Is your barrel 'floating' or is it touching the stock at points it should not ( no knowledge of Savage design factors but assume its intended to have a floated barrel?) ...if it touches it can 'throw' shots off centre. Are you confident that you are breaking the shot without flinching or jerking the trigger ? Is the trigger smooth or too heavy? If you are shooting from a bipod are you forward loading it consistently? Wind conditions making consistency problematic? For initial accuracy checks are you shooting to a consistent POA and focused only on grouping wherever it actually impacts OR 'fiddling' with scope dials to compensate for off-centre shots? None of teh above intended as criticism....just suggesting what else could be a factor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Posted July 22, 2013 Report Share Posted July 22, 2013 Have you run your loads across a chronograph to see how consistent they are? I crimp my 308 loads (Lee FCD) and it helps with accuracy. Not a popular practice on your side of the pond, but I have found it beneficial wth most cartridges. Reduced my standard deviation in some cases by over 40% comparing loads that are identical (brass LOT, bullets, etc) and only differing in the application of a crimp.~Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brillo Posted July 22, 2013 Report Share Posted July 22, 2013 My 308 is a Sako TRG-22 and at 100 yards its easily shoots sub 0.3moa groups at speeds anywhere between 2650 - 2850fps. Best groups were obtained with 155 SMK's with 44.0 grains of Vit N140 and 46.9 grain TR140 with the bullet seated 0.030" off the lands...... That is, until I tried Lapua Scenar heads in an attempt to increase velocity without increasing loads. It all went pear shaped and my groups opened up. It took some time to find that the Lapua bullet preferred being seated closer to the lands by 10 thou. I mention this because you might find that your Savage is COAL sensitive. To add weight to this; I have the same model Savage in 6mm BR. I ran it in the usual prescribed way before even attempting groups and it shot like a pig. I had some good advice from Vince and it turns out that my 6BR is COAL sensitive with certain bullets. I started getting better groups by picking the best group I had from a given load and then loaded batches of rounds starting at just off the lands, going back to 0.070" in 0.015" intervals. Once I had a sweet spot I refined that further by 0.005" either side of the sweet spot and then started playing with powder weights. It was a long process but I'm convinced that some guns are quick to tune and others difficult. Maybe your Savage is one of the latter. HTH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oaken Posted July 22, 2013 Report Share Posted July 22, 2013 I had an Ftr for a while and I have to say it was a pig to start with. It was a while before realising that the stock was the wrong shape for me. I found that I had very poor trigger control due to the angle of the grip. I got a Choate Varmint stock which has a near vertical grip and with a little bit of packing at the base of my trigger finger got the blade to sit nicely on the ball of my finger. Strait away it easily halved my group sizes and I was able to shoot it with confidence. If you are all out for accuracy at 1K regardless of expense and barrel life, try the 155.5 bergers driven fast and seated 10thou off the lands. I used varget but can't remember how much. Something about the chamber enabled really hot loads, way hotter than I would dare try in any other .308. Obviously work up carefully. It also shot the new hybrid 155SMK really well but they were a compromise against the bergers. I ran them at pedestrian speeds too,to save barrel wear. Never got it to shoot anywhere near well with Scenars, don't waste your money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nomis Posted July 22, 2013 Report Share Posted July 22, 2013 Oakens load with the 155.5 Bergers was 45 gr Varget, I now have this rifle and find it very accurate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oaken Posted July 22, 2013 Report Share Posted July 22, 2013 Oakens load with the 155.5 Bergers was 45 gr Varget, I now have this rifle and find it very accurate. Glad its performing for you, have you tried warming up the loads yet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nomis Posted July 23, 2013 Report Share Posted July 23, 2013 No not yet, didn't have enough powder or bullets to start playing, I have chrono'd it now and getting 2950 so a bit faster than was thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brown dog Posted July 23, 2013 Report Share Posted July 23, 2013 I had an Ftr for a while and I have to say it was a pig to start with. It was a while before realising that the stock was the wrong shape for me. I found that I had very poor trigger control due to the angle of the grip. I got a Choate Varmint stock which has a near vertical grip and with a little bit of packing at the base of my trigger finger got the blade to sit nicely on the ball of my finger. Strait away it easily halved my group sizes and I was able to shoot it with confidence. That's a really useful observation. My first question in answer to the OP would be (and meant helpfully, not being rude) -how well do you group with other rifles? With a rifle that's putting everything into under an inch; my first instinct would be think it's a wildly accurate rifle that's being shot with inconsistent (for whatever reason -poor fit, inexperience whatever) position and hold. I'd want to know that that wasn't the cause before I started tinkering with loads: Years ago I had an SSG 69 that I used to cuss because I couldn't get it to group below 0.75MOA; one day a pal of mine lifted the rifle out of my hands and shot -without changing anything- a series of 0.5MOA groups; then gave it back to me .......and it went straight back to 0.75MOA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shootist Posted July 23, 2013 Author Report Share Posted July 23, 2013 That's a really useful observation. My first question in answer to the OP would be (and meant helpfully, not being rude) -how well do you group with other rifles? With a rifle that's putting everything into under an inch; my first instinct would be think it's a wildly accurate rifle that's being shot with inconsistent (for whatever reason -poor fit, inexperience whatever) position and hold. I'd want to know that that wasn't the cause before I started tinkering with loads: Years ago I had an SSG 69 that I used to cuss because I couldn't get it to group below 0.75MOA; one day a pal of mine lifted the rifle out of my hands and shot -without changing anything- a series of 0.5MOA groups; then gave it back to me .......and it went straight back to 0.75MOA. I could, with the right load, get .75" at 185 yards with my .223 Steyr Scout. My 6.5 Swedish Mauser will do around 1.25" at 110 yards. My K31 will do about 2" with GP!! (Both rifles scoped BTW.) But what you say is always good advice. First thing with a new rifle that has accuracy issues is always to get another shooter, a good one, to try it. I've not done that yet, but I will. Just got to get some rounds loaded up (and fix the ejector which has gone none functional!). The one thing that bothers me is quite why on a dedicated long range rifle the lead into the rifling seems so short. Some of the rounds I made up were below 2.8", and the max COL measured with a Hornady gauge were as follows: Scenar 155 - 2.825 Sierra 155 (2155) - 2.807 Sierra 168 - 2.811 Sierra 150 - 2.771 Sierra 155 Palma (2156) - 2.884 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gun Pimp Posted July 23, 2013 Report Share Posted July 23, 2013 I could, with the right load, get .75" at 185 yards with my .223 Steyr Scout. My 6.5 Swedish Mauser will do around 1.25" at 110 yards. My K31 will do about 2" with GP!! (Both rifles scoped BTW.) But what you say is always good advice. First thing with a new rifle that has accuracy issues is always to get another shooter, a good one, to try it. I've not done that yet, but I will. Just got to get some rounds loaded up (and fix the ejector which has gone none functional!). The one thing that bothers me is quite why on a dedicated long range rifle the lead into the rifling seems so short. Some of the rounds I made up were below 2.8", and the max COL measured with a Hornady gauge were as follows: Scenar 155 - 2.825 Sierra 155 (2155) - 2.807 Sierra 168 - 2.811 Sierra 150 - 2.771 Sierra 155 Palma (2156) - 2.884 It may be that the manufacturer assumed that the owner may want to shoot factory ammunition - which is probably a fair assumption in the USA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swamp Donkey Posted July 24, 2013 Report Share Posted July 24, 2013 I used to cuss because I couldn't get it to group below 0.75MOA; one day a pal of mine lifted the rifle out of my hands and shot -without changing anything- a series of 0.5MOA groups; then gave it back to me .......and it went straight back to 0.75MOA. You were shooting at your best that day then Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6.5Grendel Posted July 25, 2013 Report Share Posted July 25, 2013 I could, with the right load, get .75" at 185 yards with my .223 Steyr Scout. My 6.5 Swedish Mauser will do around 1.25" at 110 yards. My K31 will do about 2" with GP!! (Both rifles scoped BTW.) But what you say is always good advice. First thing with a new rifle that has accuracy issues is always to get another shooter, a good one, to try it. I've not done that yet, but I will. Just got to get some rounds loaded up (and fix the ejector which has gone none functional!). The one thing that bothers me is quite why on a dedicated long range rifle the lead into the rifling seems so short. Some of the rounds I made up were below 2.8", and the max COL measured with a Hornady gauge were as follows: Scenar 155 - 2.825 Sierra 155 (2155) - 2.807 Sierra 168 - 2.811 Sierra 150 - 2.771 Sierra 155 Palma (2156) - 2.884 Re your ejector , my FTR action (it wears a different 1-11 32" barrel) will only eject newish brass , after a couple of firings it stops ejecting them. Mine is left port , right bolt and not an issue to get brass out easily . I full length size every time. Probably not relevant as I have a different twist and non std chamber but I run 185g scenars with 46.8g N550 at around 2830fps COL 2.830 , berger 185g long range COL at 2.900 with the same N550 load Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AckImp Posted July 25, 2013 Report Share Posted July 25, 2013 I'd stick with either of the 155s and N140. You say you're surprised by the OAL. I take this to mean you're loading them out to the rifling? We've found that working back from the rifling (on advice from Callum Ferguson) gave better accuracy, and from memory we ended up as much as .030" away from the rifling. This gun (a Krieger Barreled, Blurprinted Remington 700) shoots honest 1/2MOA groups with a stout load of 140 and 155 Scenars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1066 Posted July 25, 2013 Report Share Posted July 25, 2013 I had the same ejector/extractor problems with both my Savages - A very easy fix is to replace the detent ball under the extractor plate with one slightly bigger. (I used a 3.5mm Here's and explanation taken from the Savage shooters site:- ********** Since I have been receiving many calls with this problem, I began to study it closer. I have done many different things on various guns to remedy the problem, which included: making custom extractors, opening up smaller bolt faces to the correct diameter(.223 to .308) , making larger ejector pins,and I even bushed a bolt face to reduce the diameter to correct size. Then I tried something yesterday that made sense, and it is very simple. First let me explain... The spring pocket diameter in the bolt head (under the extractor plate) measures .150". The extractor spring measures .145", but the detent ball only measures .125". When the detent ball is centered in the detent of the extractor by spring pressure, it has .025" clearance between it and the hole dia. This make for side to side slop that will not compress the detent ball and spring. When a cartridge is pressed in the bolt face, the extractor,ball and spring can be deflected approx. .0125" before the detent ball compresses the spring. The result is that amount of movement will not spring back to center, essentially leaving the extractor claw not grabbing that much of the case. Is everyone following me on this? The fix is simple - use a bigger ball. I have some in stock, they measure .140", thus reducing the non-returning slop. I have tried this on several here in the shop and had 100% success rate, although there may be a combination of factors out there on a rifle that it may not help, but it sure as heck won't hurt. *********** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shootist Posted July 25, 2013 Author Report Share Posted July 25, 2013 The ejector problem with mine is the ejector. It's stuck in the rear position offering no encouragement to shift the case. The extractor seems fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1066 Posted July 25, 2013 Report Share Posted July 25, 2013 The ejector is pretty basic - If you have a look at the bolt you will see a small cross pin retains the ejector plunger. The pin easily drifts out and you should then be able to remove the plunger. May just need a clean/de-burr/polish or the small spring has collapsed. http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=i&source=images&cd=&docid=yMsgWHM74sx4ZM&tbnid=WymWWxUTgAVZZM:&ved=0CAUQjBwwADhG&url=http%3A%2F%2Fi927.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fad111%2FRocketmanOU%2FDSC06011Small.jpg&ei=zJHxUeG0AoX6PPSEgIgO&psig=AFQjCNFL0hKiaJDEjhDx9fFQMhL_pmhK0g&ust=1374872396072527 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1066 Posted July 25, 2013 Report Share Posted July 25, 2013 The ejector is pretty basic - If you have a look at the bolt you will see a small cross pin retains the ejector plunger. The pin easily drifts out and you should then be able to remove the plunger. May just need a clean/de-burr/polish or the small spring has collapsed. http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=i&source=images&cd=&docid=yMsgWHM74sx4ZM&tbnid=WymWWxUTgAVZZM:&ved=0CAUQjBwwADhG&url=http%3A%2F%2Fi927.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fad111%2FRocketmanOU%2FDSC06011Small.jpg&ei=zJHxUeG0AoX6PPSEgIgO&psig=AFQjCNFL0hKiaJDEjhDx9fFQMhL_pmhK0g&ust=1374872396072527 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shootist Posted July 25, 2013 Author Report Share Posted July 25, 2013 I'm guessing that you don't need to dismantle the whole bolt to get the ejector out then? The video I have just shows stripping the whole bolt, although it doesn't suggest anything other than the pin needs removing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.