Testing .22LR ammunition - Fiocchi HP sub-sonic

[1066]

Thought you might be interested in the initial results of my.22LR ammo test.

 

 

[nitewatch]

I reckon you could do even better if your target wasn't getting blown about! atb tony

[kent]

.22 lr subs hp can actually shoot a whole lot better than that. the vertical dispersion seems quite poor at said range, I cannot comment on conditions as there are hills and all I see is the grass before the camera

[1066]

.22 lr subs hp can actually shoot a whole lot better than that. the vertical dispersion seems quite poor at said range, I cannot comment on conditions as there are hills and all I see is the grass before the camera

I quite agree Kent, I was disappointed with the vertical spread too. I usually use Eley HP subs with reasonable results, however, always looking for the perfect round (accurate, expands well, cycles the semi-auto, quiet, cheap, available etc.) I though the Fiocchi's were worth a try.

 

By making the video I wanted to show a bit of "real world" shooting rather than "internet shooting" . How many times do you see "my 10/22 shoots cloverleaves all day long" - I feel a "group" should be 5 shots (no flyers or pulled shots discounted), from a known distance and measured accurately, preferably a series of groups shot consecutively on the same sheet of paper. Only then can any sort of comparison be made.

 

And, of course, many .22's are ammo sensitive, what works for one may not work for another.

 

I really don't think the conditions had any bearing on the results. -I'll try a few different HP subs to see how they compare under the same conditions.

 

It would have been a good group apart from the one I pulled and the flyer

[triggersqueezer]

i shot yogi bears 22lr after slating the cal for years'it gave .50 at 75 with subs.it was a finfire?? i have had annie and weirauch and the lr's i had shot about 4" at 100 .if i could find one like his fin i would get one for sure. if i'm honest i have had air rifles that can shoot 1.5 " at 75

[Sausage Warrior]

Well done 1066. Few of 'us' are brave enough to stick our heads above the parapet for fear of being judged. Keep up the good work! As you say this calibre of rifles are very sensitive to brands/manufacturer. We understand that this is what you find in your rifle and will most likely be different in ours. But I for one approve.

[Sausage Warrior]

One (or two) thing though: keep your range and the range (see what I did there ) the same and if possible, similar conditions too please.

[Andrew]

I get hired to test rimfire ammunition on a consulting basis. I often get sent an entire 5000 round case of ammunition from a suspect production LOT to be evaluated so I have some experience with this. I'm also an avid rimfire hunter and spend a lot of time in the field. That said, I'd like to offer some suggestions.

 

Beg, borrow, or steal a chronograph. You are flying blind without one.

 

Find a course of fire that doesn't involve shooting across such varied terrain. We all have to deal with the wind but you can minimize it's effects by giving it less terrain (like gullies and hills) to bounce over while it plays with your bullet.

 

I never dis someone's shooting ability but a solid rest is always best. I am not that good off of a bipod, myself, so I could never use one for accuracy testing.

 

Lastly. Shoot more. I will shoot a 1000 round sample from a case of 5000 rounds and it is considered a small sample. If you wish to represent a "test" a larger sample is a must. If you wish to just say, "I shot this ammo and this is how it went" then any sample size you want is just fine.

 

One last note and it's not a variable anyone can control. Some guns don't like some ammunition and it can be especially true in rimfires. This is where the chronograph data (velocity, extreme spread, standard deviation) come into value. If all the numbers are very good, and everything else is good, then poor accuracy might be traced to the gun or some other 'external' rather than the quality of the ammunition.

 

Good video work. (I have no skills for such things!) I hope to see more.

~Andrew

 

PS: I recieved 7 cases of ammunition yesterday from a manufacturer for evaluation... this is the point where it becomes work!

[1066]

Thanks for detailed reply Andrew. I fully accept all your points, however, "needs must". I was out very early last Sunday morning, just having a stroll round a small patch I regularly shoot, I'd just taken a couple of longish rabbits for the pot using my usual Eley HP subs.

 

As it was such a beautiful morning and still only about 07.00 with nothing pressing for the next hour or two, I thought I would try the Fiocchi HP's. I'd only picked up a couple of boxed the day before and, having never tried them before, I though I'd give them a go and at the same time record the results.

 

So - A spur of the minute thing, yes, I have a chrony and yes I have a solid rest and rear bags but I really wanted to see what they would shoot like as I would usually shoot them, off a bi-pod with that rifle. That initial test tells me that they are not better than the Eley I usually use so I won't be buying a brick for further testing.

If the group didn't show the vertical error and had gone into .4 inch at 65 yds I would have been quite pleased, although knowing a single good group doesn't prove anything it would certainly been a basis for more exhaustive tests. Next time I have a go I'll take some decent match ammunition with me and shoot a control group at the same time - I know it would be better to clean and foul the barrel between brands but I don't want to waste time and money with rounds that don't make the cut.

[Sausage Warrior]

I get hired to test rimfire ammunition on a consulting basis. I often get sent an entire 5000 round case of ammunition from a suspect production LOT to be evaluated so I have some experience with this. I'm also an avid rimfire hunter and spend a lot of time in the field. That said, I'd like to offer some suggestions.

 

Beg, borrow, or steal a chronograph. You are flying blind without one.

 

Find a course of fire that doesn't involve shooting across such varied terrain. We all have to deal with the wind but you can minimize it's effects by giving it less terrain (like gullies and hills) to bounce over while it plays with your bullet.

 

I never dis someone's shooting ability but a solid rest is always best. I am not that good off of a bipod, myself, so I could never use one for accuracy testing.

 

Lastly. Shoot more. I will shoot a 1000 round sample from a case of 5000 rounds and it is considered a small sample. If you wish to represent a "test" a larger sample is a must. If you wish to just say, "I shot this ammo and this is how it went" then any sample size you want is just fine.

 

One last note and it's not a variable anyone can control. Some guns don't like some ammunition and it can be especially true in rimfires. This is where the chronograph data (velocity, extreme spread, standard deviation) come into value. If all the numbers are very good, and everything else is good, then poor accuracy might be traced to the gun or some other 'external' rather than the quality of the ammunition.

 

Good video work. (I have no skills for such things!) I hope to see more.

~Andrew

 

PS: I recieved 7 cases of ammunition yesterday from a manufacturer for evaluation... this is the point where it becomes work!

 

If you are looking for someone to test in various shitty conditions - send a few thousand rounds over this way I'll do my best.

[Andrew]

If you are looking for someone to test in various shitty conditions - send a few thousand rounds over this way I'll do my best.

It sounds like it's a bit of fun but it is pretty tedious work shooting thousands of rounds and recording the data; and the paperwork afterwards is a chore (reports, etc) The worst part is that after the testing, the remaining ammo is left behind. They don't want it back. I have a place in my ammo storage that has partial cases of crap/dangerous ammunition, and SAAMI marked test ammo that is deliberately over loaded. What the heck do you do with that? Can't give it away (liability)and it's not worth shooting. You have to be very careful that it doesn't inadvertently get used.

 

I do get to test prototype ammo and generally, that is much better than the regular production runs so I do have quantities of ammo that I kind of keep as a bench mark against later production runs so it's not all bad.

 

I tell you what though. You come over and give me six weeks of your time and I'll let you shoot it for me! ~Andrew

[Andrew]

Thanks for detailed reply Andrew. I fully accept all your points, however, "needs must". I was out very early last Sunday morning, just having a stroll round a small patch I regularly shoot, I'd just taken a couple of longish rabbits for the pot using my usual Eley HP subs.

 

As it was such a beautiful morning and still only about 07.00 with nothing pressing for the next hour or two, I thought I would try the Fiocchi HP's. I'd only picked up a couple of boxed the day before and, having never tried them before, I though I'd give them a go and at the same time record the results.

 

So - A spur of the minute thing, yes, I have a chrony and yes I have a solid rest and rear bags but I really wanted to see what they would shoot like as I would usually shoot them, off a bi-pod with that rifle. That initial test tells me that they are not better than the Eley I usually use so I won't be buying a brick for further testing.

If the group didn't show the vertical error and had gone into .4 inch at 65 yds I would have been quite pleased, although knowing a single good group doesn't prove anything it would certainly been a basis for more exhaustive tests. Next time I have a go I'll take some decent match ammunition with me and shoot a control group at the same time - I know it would be better to clean and foul the barrel between brands but I don't want to waste time and money with rounds that don't make the cut.

Ok. I can see that it was a spur of the moment thing but, and this the point I was trying to make, you make assmptions about the quality of the ammo with no data. It may not be bad. It may be an ammo that will never do well in your .22 regardless of how well it was made. I have shot a SAKO Finnfire that shoots one particular kind of ammo into a single hole at 25M but none of my dozens of .22LR weapons will shoot the same stuff into an inch at that distance. The performance from the Finnfire is meaningless as a judge of the ammo quality because I can show hundreds of groups fired with an bevy of rifles that would indicate just the opposite.

 

And adding to the problem, quality made ammunition may not be good ammuniton. One particularly problematic Hyper Velocity ammo tossed fliers no matter what. Test rounds were literlly hand made to assure quality of manufacture and they still shot badly. A slight re-engineering of the bullet cured much of the problem.

 

Some years back I was asked to write a review of a book dedicated to rimfire ammuntition. It was an Ok work but the biggest and baddest complaint I had was that quality of the ammo was not established with data other than the accuracy from one or two very high-dollar match rifles. The author looked at the color of the priming and powder, and then shot some groups. What he really had was an entire book which related to how his two rifles liked or disliked various kinds of rimfire ammo; not a treatise on the quality of the ammo itself.~Andrew

[kent]

I thought you were testing through a single shot? Semi auto selection is a peculiar thing, like has been said 1. some stuff shoots better through certain guns 2. chrono is very useful 3. pick good ground on the best day.

 

Recently I compared a large amount of different ammo subs through HV etc. I thought I might find something special but in the end I stuck with SK subs I have used for ages now (previously branded as Lapua). Some rounds were better in wind than SK though. testing was at 50- 100 yds. Fun was as far as I could get them. RWS subs gave very consistent groups at all ranges but were only doing 900 fps

[CRD]

I get hired to test rimfire ammunition on a consulting basis. I often get sent an entire 5000 round case of ammunition from a suspect production LOT to be evaluated so I have some experience with this. I'm also an avid rimfire hunter and spend a lot of time in the field. That said, I'd like to offer some suggestions.

 

Beg, borrow, or steal a chronograph. You are flying blind without one.

 

Find a course of fire that doesn't involve shooting across such varied terrain. We all have to deal with the wind but you can minimize it's effects by giving it less terrain (like gullies and hills) to bounce over while it plays with your bullet.

 

I never dis someone's shooting ability but a solid rest is always best. I am not that good off of a bipod, myself, so I could never use one for accuracy testing.

 

Lastly. Shoot more. I will shoot a 1000 round sample from a case of 5000 rounds and it is considered a small sample. If you wish to represent a "test" a larger sample is a must. If you wish to just say, "I shot this ammo and this is how it went" then any sample size you want is just fine.

 

One last note and it's not a variable anyone can control. Some guns don't like some ammunition and it can be especially true in rimfires. This is where the chronograph data (velocity, extreme spread, standard deviation) come into value. If all the numbers are very good, and everything else is good, then poor accuracy might be traced to the gun or some other 'external' rather than the quality of the ammunition.

 

Good video work. (I have no skills for such things!) I hope to see more.

~Andrew

 

PS: I recieved 7 cases of ammunition yesterday from a manufacturer for evaluation... this is the point where it becomes work!

A great deal of sense you have written there. Just to reiterate the gun must be "bolted down" as nearly all guns and ammunition are accurate but shooters aren't.

Just work out what a deviation of 0.025mm at the muzzle corresponds to at 60 metres!

[Sausage Warrior]

It sounds like it's a bit of fun but it is pretty tedious work shooting thousands of rounds and recording the data; and the paperwork afterwards is a chore (reports, etc) The worst part is that after the testing, the remaining ammo is left behind. They don't want it back. I have a place in my ammo storage that has partial cases of crap/dangerous ammunition, and SAAMI marked test ammo that is deliberately over loaded. What the heck do you do with that? Can't give it away (liability)and it's not worth shooting. You have to be very careful that it doesn't inadvertently get used.

 

I do get to test prototype ammo and generally, that is much better than the regular production runs so I do have quantities of ammo that I kind of keep as a bench mark against later production runs so it's not all bad.

 

I tell you what though. You come over and give me six weeks of your time and I'll let you shoot it for me! ~Andrew

 

If only,,,,,,,

[Andrew]

Well. The temps are around 100 degrees F right now and it wouldn't be much fun for you, anyhow. Nothing like spending 8 hours in the sun shooting to make you say to heck with the manly crack of a rifle and hello to the seductive hum of an air conditoner! I got positively baked today! ~Andrew

[1066]

A great deal of sense you have written there. Just to reiterate the gun must be "bolted down" as nearly all guns and ammunition are accurate but shooters aren't.

Just work out what a deviation of 0.025mm at the muzzle corresponds to at 60 metres!

I'm not trying to re-invent the wheel - I think one of the definitive .22lr accuracy tests is this one:-

http://www.accurateshooter.com/guns-of-week/22lr-rimfire-ammo-comparison-test/

 

Perfect conditions, top equipment etc. What I wanted to see was what accuracy to expect under common rabbit shooting conditions using pretty basic kit. As expected the Eley tennex came out on top for accuracy with about .9 moa, not bad considering the conditions, but too expensive to even think about. My usual sub-sonic HP round for rabbits is the Eley HP's - not a stunning group but very predictable, they chronograph at about 1030 through my rifle, they seem to kill rabbits well, they're available locally at a reasonable price, and having found nothing better yet so I'll stick with them - But I'll keep looking

 

This is six types compared.

 

[achosenman]

It's so nice to see someone else taking time to sort a 22lr.

Sometimes though, the problem is the rifle...as I found out.

 

I recently got a second hand Sako Varmint Finnfire. I got it unseen since the asking price was only £450 and the stock looked in good shape from the photo. The barrel had been hacked off to 14 inches by some Muppet, but since the only other example offered was £600 I thought it worth a punt. I knew I could always re-barrel if it turned out to be a dog. I also picked up an A-Tec cmm4 moderator.

 

Anyway, the rifle was as I thought with damage to the bore by indifferent cleaning rod use, revealed all to clearly by the bore scope, but the crown looked ok. The wood was in very nice shape.

 

I tested Win HP sub-sonic CCI segmented, Eley Club, Eley Tenex, RWS R50, RWS sub-sonic HP and Eley HP. Target ammo shoots well and was sub-sonic. The bullets are a bit harder than HP, so I thought I'd leave them for 100+ yd/plinking etc. The results of the hunting ammo were mediocre at best...definitely sub 50yd use.

 

I thought I'd try tuning the rifle since I had nothing to lose. I stripped the rifle completely and replaced the trigger spring with one from Baldie and set it to a tad over 1lb. I changed out the action screws for hex drive heads and I also replaced the worn out firing pin spring since it barely made an indentation in the cases.

 

I started with tuning the action screw torque. I fired a five round group at each torque setting going up in 5inlbs from 20-35inlbs That made a vast difference, the rifle liked 30inlbs. I then tuned the barrel with the moderator. I did this by dropping out one segment of the moderator at a time then shooting a group. After several test groups I decided on one segment out and a group size reduced by 50% . There seems to be no discernable difference to the muzzle report using the mark one ear, until you get down to one segment remaining.

 

I then re-fired the test groups with the hunting ammo. These are the results at 50yds, The CCI dropped a round that opened up the first group to 1.624 and 1.11 with Winchester. The QC from CCI/Win is poor IMHO. I am pleased I didn't give up. I use On Target to measure the groups.

 

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I have since had Neil Mckillop install some pillars. This has shown yet more consistency and smaller groups. I have yet to run a proper re-test but indications are promising. I have also sorted the ammo by rim thickness. This does wonders for long range group size and consistency, again I have not re run this test due time, but it seems flyers become a rare event from the several groups I have fired so far. I am now awaiting the new 18inch barrel from Lilja.

 

ATB

[kent]

I like three types of test to sort good .22 lr from bad 50 yds, 100 yds and finally wind comparisoms. HV types fair poorly in the wind and loose out on accuracy to high grade subs at 100 yds. To be fair its hard to sort the better ammo at 50 yds on a good day with a good rifle but switch to 100 and things become somewhat clearer.

taken to single shot fired at multiple small dots over groups recently and measuring the max, min and average distance from point of aim. I am slowly becoming convinced by this being better than groups

[achosenman]

I like three types of test to sort good .22 lr from bad 50 yds, 100 yds and finally wind comparisoms. HV types fair poorly in the wind and loose out on accuracy to high grade subs at 100 yds. To be fair its hard to sort the better ammo at 50 yds on a good day with a good rifle but switch to 100 and things become somewhat clearer.

taken to single shot fired at multiple small dots over groups recently and measuring the max, min and average distance from point of aim. I am slowly becoming convinced by this being better than groups

Good point. I move to 100 when I get an acceptable brand at 50yds. The RWS HP has proven to be far better at 100 than any other hunting brand tested so far. By that I mean it will consistently punch the centre out of the 1 inch target spot without breaking the edge. Not only that but I don't need to sort the ammo since their QC is very good. The only downside for me is tha it is the slowest ammo I have tested...kills rabbits though.

[kent]

Good point. I move to 100 when I get an acceptable brand at 50yds. The RWS HP has proven to be far better at 100 than any other hunting brand tested so far. By that I mean it will consistently punch the centre out of the 1 inch target spot without breaking the edge. Not only that but I don't need to sort the ammo since their QC is very good. The only downside for me is tha it is the slowest ammo I have tested...kills rabbits though.

 

Yes I have found them second on accuracy to the favoured SK subs, they don't half drop more though a good 1 1/2" - 2" lower @ 100 but hold quite well in the wind

[achosenman]

 

Yes I have found them second on accuracy to the favoured SK subs, they don't half drop more though a good 1 1/2" - 2" lower @ 100 but hold quite well in the wind

I've not tried SK subs. They don't seem to stock them around this part of the World. I must keep an eye out and give them a go.

 

ATB

[kent]

I've not tried SK subs. They don't seem to stock them around this part of the World. I must keep an eye out and give them a go.

 

ATB

They might stock them as Lapua subsonic (they have a picture of a rat on the box), one of the dealers I buy them off still lists them as Lapua even though they are now braded SK and come in a gold coloured box

[achosenman]

Thanks for that, I'll have a ring round and see what I can find.

 

ATB