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changing HMR for?


gunner

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I use the lighter bullets for the most part. I do use a 46 grain Winchester HP when I get in the mood. I get 2870 fps IIRC and it shoots about 5/8 inch. I shoot them largely because I have almost 2K of them. At one time they were silly cheap so I bought 2000. I think it cost me $136 for the lot. That bullet aside, I sometimes load the Sierra 40 grain HP that I use in the 218 Bee but, like the 40 grain V-Max, it's a single shot proposition. The Winchesters, oddly, do fit the magazine.

 

Accuracy from the 33 grain VM, the 34 grain Dog town, and the 35 grain VM is very good. Any of these will shoot 1/2 MOA. Prairiedogs are small targets and very light skinned. A hit with one of these generates explosive results and no screamers bouncing off the prairie towards livestock. The Winchesters will ruin a PD's day just as well as the lighter bullets but tends to carry through.~Andrew

 

Yes, like I say I realise why light and more frangible bullets are the choice on flat hard prairie. Is the 33 grain VM you refer to another v-max? I am not familiar with it

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The hand loaded Hornet is like a different gun to the factory offering. The advent of powders like LilGun actually produce more speed for far less pressure . Nothing changed to the design of the Hornet to prompt SAMMI to reduce maximum pressure in more recent times, it was more a case of old spec .223 bores rather than .224 and old decrepit rifles. Few Hornet owners in the UK rely on factory ammo which work out at parrelel cost to .223 rem factory plus 5 rounds a box ie 25 rounds for the price of 20. Or use old guns from the 1930's and 40's, if they did I credit them with enough intellect to not push towards hotter / faster loads without the intervention of convention

 

LilGun seems to top out around 2900 fps and dropping from 45 towards a 40 grain makes little difference in terms of speed. factory loaded rounds using the 35 v-max run at 3080 fps max in my CZ but offer similar ballistics to a HMR and firing strings over the chrono produced some horrendous variations (to be fair there is an issue with hand loads in this in the fact that I occasionally get an odd ploppy one). What I can say is primers help with deviation in its normal format but do not remove the odd freaky plopper, currently I suspect over worked brass. Many re-loading manuals state head separation issues with hornet cases and cracking, with the tight chamber of the CZ and LilGun powder all I can say is appears a total non-issue.

 

As and when this ammo and components famine ends I shall do some more experimenting but for now I am being careful and slightly more frugal with supplies

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Hi Kent, sorry 'my tables' came out less spread sheet neat than i typed in,but the data is there and your Cz with factory 35vmax is giving pretty much the published fps 3100/3080,and this does indeed equate near enough to the 17HRMdrift (10mph) at 200y.The drop might be a little less,and energy considerably more.

The rf data of course is given for 100 zero and out to 200,whke the CF is 200 zero and out further-though it slows comparison,it's really just summarising the 'sensible' envelopes for these cartridges.One important issue is the range at which performance drops of dramatically-and that happens a lot earlier for the rf,evenif ok at the shorter distances,and with wind drift estimation error of 20% (+ or -,of course) that gets critical,perhaps with drift above 15" (=6 inch error)?

 

So far so good.If Lilgun speed tops out about 2900 for the 40 g (as well as the 45,as you say),how will that compare to the Hornady loading 35@3100/3080-the 35 BC is a very modest .11,so is the 40g bullet a higher BC,such as the SBK(.287) or vmax(.275).These two are not commercially loaded,so I could not include them,but it would not be hard to get ballistics on them-you might have that already?Then the advantages of the Hornet will be a lot clearer,perhaps up there with the 221 Fireball commercial loading Nosler 40 BT@3200 BC221 which gives 8/13 300yard drop/drift,though presumably better when handloaded too.)

I agree that better BC and powder has improved the Hornet.Just how much will be interesting-when the stuff is available again!

 

Gbal

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Yes, like I say I realise why light and more frangible bullets are the choice on flat hard prairie. Is the 33 grain VM you refer to another v-max? I am not familiar with it

 

Kent,

This is the 33 grain V-Max made for the Remington Premier 22WMR round. Very explosive at 3240 fps from my Hornet and a charge of H-110. Unfortunately, at that speed the BC is worse than the 35 grain VM. It's like it tossed out a drag chute. It is very accurate from a couple of the CZ's I have loaded for and in areas where the shooting is going to be short, it is a good one to use. Remington lists the BC of that bullet at .120 but that is at 2100 fps. At 3240 it drops to .097 by actual field calculation@ 3300 ft elevation. The 35 grain VM runs about .110 and the Midway 34 is in thr .140's depending on the weather. I don't bother much with bullets that won't fit the magazine of my rifle, and I won't alter my magazines to accept them, either. I have other rifles. When the Hornet is clearly not an option, the other rifles are available. One of the things that appeals to me about the 34 grain Midway bullet is that it seems to have been designed for the CZ Hornet. With the parallel sides of the bullet almost completely seated in the neck, it clears the magazine by .010 inch. Seat it deeper and you're on the ogive, seat it shallower and it's too long. It's a perfect fit. A relatively high BC doesn't hurt it's appeal, either.

 

As to pressure and the Hornet. I talked to the folks at Hodgdon's while at the SHOT Show one year and asked one of the reps why they dropped the max charge of Lil Gun for the 40 grain bullet from 14 grains to 13 grains. The answer was that there were darned few hornet cases that would hold 14 grains. Remington was the only one. People were worried because 14 grains would spill out of a Winchester case. It is a very tolerant, low pressure powder that delivers very high velocities which is why it is #1 with Hornet shooters. A rancher buddy of mine is an avid shooter and reolader. His pretty young wife likes to shoot prairiedogs and used a CZ Hornet. She shoots so much that her husband couldn't keep up reloading for her and still have time to reload for himself. To speed up the process, he'd use sized and primed Hornet cases and simply scoop the case full of Lil Gun from a large bowl, shake off a tiny bit, and seat the bullet. No loss in accuracy. No complaints from the Missus.

 

You're right. Priming makes a big difference in SD in the Hornet case. On the recommendation of my Marine buddy I switched to small pistol primers years ago and never looked back. SD and groups tightened, then crimping improved on that even more.~Andrew

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Yes, like I say I realise why light and more frangible bullets are the choice on flat hard prairie. Is the 33 grain VM you refer to another v-max? I am not familiar with it

 

Kent,

This is the 33 grain V-Max made for the Remington Premier 22WMR round. Very explosive at 3240 fps from my Hornet and a charge of H-110. Unfortunately, at that speed the BC is worse than the 35 grain VM. It's like it tossed out a drag chute. It is very accurate from a couple of the CZ's I have loaded for and in areas where the shooting is going to be short, it is a good one to use. Remington lists the BC of that bullet at .120 but that is at 2100 fps. At 3240 it drops to .097 by actual field calculation@ 3300 ft elevation. The 35 grain VM runs about .110 and the Midway 34 is in thr .140's depending on the weather. I don't bother much with bullets that won't fit the magazine of my rifle, and I won't alter my magazines to accept them, either. I have other rifles. When the Hornet is clearly not an option, the other rifles are available. One of the things that appeals to me about the 34 grain Midway bullet is that it seems to have been designed for the CZ Hornet. With the parallel sides of the bullet almost completely seated in the neck, it clears the magazine by .010 inch. Seat it deeper and you're on the ogive, seat it shallower and it's too long. It's a perfect fit. A relatively high BC doesn't hurt it's appeal, either.

 

As to pressure and the Hornet. I talked to the folks at Hodgdon's while at the SHOT Show one year and asked one of the reps why they dropped the max charge of Lil Gun for the 40 grain bullet from 14 grains to 13 grains. The answer was that there were darned few hornet cases that would hold 14 grains. Remington was the only one. People were worried because 14 grains would spill out of a Winchester case. It is a very tolerant, low pressure powder that delivers very high velocities which is why it is #1 with Hornet shooters. A rancher buddy of mine is an avid shooter and reolader. His pretty young wife likes to shoot prairiedogs and used a CZ Hornet. She shoots so much that her husband couldn't keep up reloading for her and still have time to reload for himself. To speed up the process, he'd use sized and primed Hornet cases and simply scoop the case full of Lil Gun from a large bowl, shake off a tiny bit, and seat the bullet. No loss in accuracy. No complaints from the Missus.

 

You're right. Priming makes a big difference in SD in the Hornet case. On the recommendation of my Marine buddy I switched to small pistol primers years ago and never looked back. SD and groups tightened, then crimping improved on that even more.~Andrew

 

Hi Kent, sorry 'my tables' came out less spread sheet neat than i typed in,but the data is there and your Cz with factory 35vmax is giving pretty much the published fps 3100/3080,and this does indeed equate near enough to the 17HRMdrift (10mph) at 200y.The drop might be a little less,and energy considerably more.

The rf data of course is given for 100 zero and out to 200,whke the CF is 200 zero and out further-though it slows comparison,it's really just summarising the 'sensible' envelopes for these cartridges.One important issue is the range at which performance drops of dramatically-and that happens a lot earlier for the rf,evenif ok at the shorter distances,and with wind drift estimation error of 20% (+ or -,of course) that gets critical,perhaps with drift above 15" (=6 inch error)?

 

So far so good.If Lilgun speed tops out about 2900 for the 40 g (as well as the 45,as you say),how will that compare to the Hornady loading 35@3100/3080-the 35 BC is a very modest .11,so is the 40g bullet a higher BC,such as the SBK(.287) or vmax(.275).These two are not commercially loaded,so I could not include them,but it would not be hard to get ballistics on them-you might have that already?Then the advantages of the Hornet will be a lot clearer,perhaps up there with the 221 Fireball commercial loading Nosler 40 BT@3200 BC221 which gives 8/13 300yard drop/drift,though presumably better when handloaded too.)

I agree that better BC and powder has improved the Hornet.Just how much will be interesting-when the stuff is available again!

 

Gbal

 

Gbal: I think it's time for you to get a Hornet! Put that coffee in a thermos, and get out and shoot through that breeze! Get out my way and we'll go dust the fleas off of a few dozen sod rats so you'll have first hand experience with the round! I have always loved the Hornet but for many years was disappointed with it. Not so now.

 

As to the OP. The Hornet is a good next step up for the someone wishing to move from the 17HMR to a centerfire. If they don't reload then Hornady 35 grain factory loads are OK. All the other stuff is loaded light for the variety of dubiously strong actions made over the years and still floating around out there. ~Andrew

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This is exactly what the little gun is capable of doing without pushing it to its limits a woodpigeon head shot

at 150 yards and a rabbit head shot at 210 yards with 8 mph wind using rem 71/2 primers and 13gr of HODGDON

LILGUN and 40gr v-max bullets :) .....rem

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Andrew,

My thoughts were going towards crimping, I suffered necks relaxing using std bushing sizing ways so opted for the 2nd 2 tho' extra pinch variant I tend to order out of course. I have considered developing a light very fragile round, its just that such a thing is a bit of a niche thing here on the moorland- generally I just avoid shooting at times when fields are full of stock or pick up a scatter gun. Its good to hear from other genuine users.

 

To the OP,

I tend to dismiss the 35 grn v-max factory but its quite possible to get it to 1" @ 100 yds in my CZ, when I stretch things though it falls to bits at extended ranges. RWS 46 grn TMS hornet factory will however keep a 1" group at 200 yds in my gun - as long as I haven't over done the coffee that morning :lol: The RWS yields some cracking brass for hand loads so don't work out too costly this factor taken into account

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Andrew,

My thoughts were going towards crimping, I suffered necks relaxing using std bushing sizing ways so opted for the 2nd 2 tho' extra pinch variant I tend to order out of course. I have considered developing a light very fragile round, its just that such a thing is a bit of a niche thing here on the moorland- generally I just avoid shooting at times when fields are full of stock or pick up a scatter gun. Its good to hear from other genuine users.

 

To the OP,

I tend to dismiss the 35 grn v-max factory but its quite possible to get it to 1" @ 100 yds in my CZ, when I stretch things though it falls to bits at extended ranges. RWS 46 grn TMS hornet factory will however keep a 1" group at 200 yds in my gun - as long as I haven't over done the coffee that morning :lol: The RWS yields some cracking brass for hand loads so don't work out too costly this factor taken into account

good to know about the factory RWS! what do you recon on reloading the 35 Vmax factory load ? if you replicated it in your reloads , do you think youd better that 1"@100 ??

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Andrew,

My thoughts were going towards crimping, I suffered necks relaxing using std bushing sizing ways so opted for the 2nd 2 tho' extra pinch variant I tend to order out of course. I have considered developing a light very fragile round, its just that such a thing is a bit of a niche thing here on the moorland- generally I just avoid shooting at times when fields are full of stock or pick up a scatter gun. Its good to hear from other genuine users.

 

To the OP,

I tend to dismiss the 35 grn v-max factory but its quite possible to get it to 1" @ 100 yds in my CZ, when I stretch things though it falls to bits at extended ranges. RWS 46 grn TMS hornet factory will however keep a 1" group at 200 yds in my gun - as long as I haven't over done the coffee that morning :lol: The RWS yields some cracking brass for hand loads so don't work out too costly this factor taken into account

 

Kent,

I have posted this before but I will put it down again. When I reload Hornet I do the following:

Neck size (optional. FL sizing seems to be OK in the CZ)

Trim all cases to the same length. Lightly chamfer. Just enough to take off trimming burr.

Expand the case mouths to just accept the bullet base.

Prime.

Charge.

Seat bullet. (You'll notice that they bullets seat easier with no faint bulging on one side of the neck)

Crimp. I use the Lee FCD. This was the last item we came up with and it snugged SD's down to a very enviable level.

 

This procedure, combined with small pistol primers, has shrunk group by 50% on the whole.**

 

Gunner: 13.5 grains of Lil Gun, Hornady 35 grain VM, Crimp it. That will do it.~Andrew

 

(** Five CZ's, one Anny, and one Savage.)

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good to know about the factory RWS! what do you recon on reloading the 35 Vmax factory load ? if you replicated it in your reloads , do you think youd better that 1"@100 ??

Unknown in my gun but according to Andrew yes! I got really great accuracy with them at 50yds (bullet on bullet) 1" steady away at 100 yds yet at 150 or so poor, 200 not worth aiming! Based on near perfect conditions. As it equates to "roughly" HMR ballistics with increased energy I just never pursued it further as I was getting great results with other 40-46 grain things. I really do suffer a lot of wind issues here, dips / dives, turns and hills send the direction round in circles at times and the norm is perhaps 10 mph, often a lot more. I like the idea of having a more fragible option but like the HMR ( that I did have a few bouncers with) just a little unsure if discresion is better than valour when the ground is hard ( hard ground happens only rarely, normally sinking up to your knees is more common)

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Unknown in my gun but according to Andrew yes! I got really great accuracy with them at 50yds (bullet on bullet) 1" steady away at 100 yds yet at 150 or so poor, 200 not worth aiming! Based on near perfect conditions. As it equates to "roughly" HMR ballistics with increased energy I just never pursued it further as I was getting great results with other 40-46 grain things. I really do suffer a lot of wind issues here, dips / dives, turns and hills send the direction round in circles at times and the norm is perhaps 10 mph, often a lot more. I like the idea of having a more fragible option but like the HMR ( that I did have a few bouncers with) just a little unsure if discresion is better than valour when the ground is hard ( hard ground happens only rarely, normally sinking up to your knees is more common)

sounds like you got your own weather front there , lol , . one of my favourite shoots is one big valley . wind and cosine angle are the enemy there . but at the same time , it keeps you on your toes and is never easy , its the challenge i like that puts your shooting skill to the test , otherwise i think it would be a little boring ! iv been watching the wind recently flowing over barley , over a field with dips and rises like your place , interesting the least .

 

hmr iv had ricochets ! mostly after passing thru quarry even at 150y and heard it ! iv also seen the evidence but at the time didn't hear the ricochet .. a little groove in the mud after passing thru a squirrel 143m .. there was another field behind probably 500y long plus two more after , no danger there ,im allways wary of what behind targets! when shooting when livstock is around ill never shoot if there's at least 45 degrees clear left and right , behind . i did tests to acertain what angles bullets can change direction after ricochets . in my experience (using bullet catchers ) they never went more than 15 - 20 degrees after target ! im sure they could tho .. cheers kent

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sounds like you got your own weather front there , lol , . one of my favourite shoots is one big valley . wind and cosine angle are the enemy there . but at the same time , it keeps you on your toes and is never easy , its the challenge i like that puts your shooting skill to the test , otherwise i think it would be a little boring ! iv been watching the wind recently flowing over barley , over a field with dips and rises like your place , interesting the least .

 

hmr iv had ricochets ! mostly after passing thru quarry even at 150y and heard it ! iv also seen the evidence but at the time didn't hear the ricochet .. a little groove in the mud after passing thru a squirrel 143m .. there was another field behind probably 500y long plus two more after , no danger there ,im allways wary of what behind targets! when shooting when livstock is around ill never shoot if there's at least 45 degrees clear left and right , behind . i did tests to acertain what angles bullets can change direction after ricochets . in my experience (using bullet catchers ) they never went more than 15 - 20 degrees after target ! im sure they could tho .. cheers kent

 

Nothing weird about the weather front, just the topography. Wind acts a little like water and just like in a river flow directions alter with structure. I am very exposed if the local forecast says x miles an hour, we generally double it.

 

You are certainly not alone with HMR ricochets, it worries me that so many see it as free of these occurances

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Pork chop

do you think hornet moderates with centerfire mod, as quiet,as hmr with rimfire mod ?

 

I run the same mod on my HMR, WMR and .222

the .222 is quieter......

 

not shot a hornet but would say on cost alone if rabbits are much more numerous than the intended foxes then it would be the one to go for

 

22gr of whatever is still double a hornet load

 

i don't use the .222 for rabbits much but it is confidence inspiring on corvids and foxes at further than I would expect to shoot them

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I run the same mod on my HMR, WMR and .222

the .222 is quieter......

 

not shot a hornet but would say on cost alone if rabbits are much more numerous than the intended foxes then it would be the one to go for

 

22gr of whatever is still double a hornet load

 

i don't use the .222 for rabbits much but it is confidence inspiring on corvids and foxes at further than I would expect to shoot them

 

You can also run that .222 at WMR levels. Look at some of the Data for reduced or turkey loads. That's one gun rather than two and WMR ammo aint too cheap either

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  • 1 month later...

swapped my hmr for a 22 hornet and all was good till i tried my -'s 17 fireball :wub: ,OMG the hornet was sold a week later :lol:

Sometimes the ballistic facts just can't be faked/overlooked.The Fireball case really does make any Hornet even more obsolete; if anyone wants to use the Hornet,fine-but side by side....you said it all. To be fair,the Fireball might suffer the same fate if compared with the 222rem.But the cartridge that should occupy premier position between the rfs and 222/3 is the Fireball,rather than the Hornet.Anything-that's anything-done by the Hornet,would be somewhat better done by the Fireball,and in a better,modern case.

Gbal

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  • 1 month later...

CZ 527, I had mine for 2 years with Hornady factory 35gn vmax, 0.5 moa all day long, Then had it re chambered to .22 K Hornet, no better accuracy but just something a bit different to reload, and you can get 40 gn vmaxes flying at 3150 fps with lilgun powder,

Regards AJ

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