groups and dope

[minkstone]

An instructor once wrote “xxx sets himself low standards that he consistently fails to achieve”

 

All this talk of statistics ignores the fact that there are many examples of shots being successful at ranges far in excess of 250m. Can it be done every time? No, we are all human and all fluff a shot. I have personally witnessed shooting that was quite frankly was astounding, and I don’t mean I saw a lucky shot once.

 

The man who taught me how to shoot a handgun was a Texan. He used to carry a pistol in his belt every day on his ranch just outside Houston Tx. I watched him shoot balloons at 200yds with a revolver. He shot six for six for 18 consecutive shots to prove to me that a pistol was accurate.

 

On a separate occasion I was down on the Trinity River bottom shooting Neutra rats from an airboat. We were using 22 semi autos. I pulled off a lucky long shot on a running rat at 200yds after observing where my first shot fall had struck the mud. I hit it in the head with my next shot. It was pure luck. Tom (my Texan friend) started to rib our guide. (A real life hillbilly type that live in an old shack down there) Inevitably he rose to the bait and a challenge was issued. I kid you not; he picked up his old 22 Remington and started to shoot small birds as they flew by. I never saw him miss. We picked up 34 birds that day. Me? I can't do that plain and simple. I have never seen shooting like it and I was fresh out of the Army where I was a successful member of the shooting team.

 

My point is there are shooters out there that do not compete and have no interest in that world, but whose skill with firearms is awe-inspiring.

 

I’ve been lucky enough to meet a few over the years and just because I can’t do it, doesn’t mean it can’t be done.

 

ATB

 

Exactly right!

 

Regards.

[kent]

http://www.oceanmedix.com/?_siteid=oceanmedix&_sessid=ef5e29090878344288f1efe0a2d023d3&action=sku&sku=dOM-racers_edge

 

What are you selling?

 

Only 90k in $ and 18lb in weight, I bet the gun shops cant wait to stock them things. Are they available in cammo?

[brown dog]

 

Exactly right!

 

Regards.

 

Well, yes and no. All those examples are short range instinct shooting.

 

Long range is a different game. Yes you can shape your 'luck', but the bottom line is that it's a numerically quantifiable probability game (for all the error budget reasons outlined earlier) - even for a hillbilly who can put every bullet through one hole at 100m!

[Crosshair]

I must admit, I was shooting all my crows with my .243 but the FLO said that if I didn't fill the .223 slot, I obviously didn't need one so it would be rude not to

 

Also, I feel much less guilty handing in receipts for £1 a bullet than £42 a box for the federal .243's!

 

I've had my fair share of sporting genius moments but also plenty of misses. Best one was clearing up Cock pheasants at the end of the season to prevent them scratching up all next years maize plots.Five pheasants at distances from 35-80 yards. First four all fell to head shots from the .22lr. One bullet left and the last one had enough and flew across my front at 35 degrees to me. Up goes the gun, down comes the pheasant with a shot right through his right eye!!!

First time my now wife saw me shoot was on a beaters day. I had four Cock pheasants in my left hand and my mobile wedged under my ear defenders. Another pheasant broke back and without breaking my conversation, I shot it one handed

Another time, I was lamping with a load of students. I was driving the mule whilst they shot and lamped. Eventually, they talked me ino having a go. A rabbit was spotted at about 80 yards. Just as I'm finding it in the scope, it bolts towards the wood absolutely flat out. A good swing, plenty of lead and it tumbled over stone dead.

Another time, I was just lining up on a rabbit at roughly 100yards when it bolted for the wood, mantain the hold over, bit of extra lead and over she went.

To be honest, if I'd looked at all those shots with a clear head and an ethical stance, I should never have taken any if them.

 

'Practice makes perfect' is the reason the best shots are always trigger happy greedy red necks like ones self

[gbal]

Well, yes and no. All those examples are short range instinct shooting.

Long range is a different game. Yes you can shape your 'luck', but the bottom line is that it's a numerically quantifiable probability game (for all the error budget reasons outlined earlier) - even for a hillbilly who can put every bullet through one hole at 100m!

Absolutely.There are some very good shooters,and the Texan and hillbilly in the examples are two such.The 6 inch balloon and small birds are clearly larger that the shot dispersal at the ranges fired,but it is impressive shooting none the less.Not really the point-world class clayshooters can go 1000 straight,but they accept that once in many thousands of shots a miss might occur because of a probability hole in the shot pattern,not an error by them.They minimise it by top quality loads.They will of course never know which miss was due to pattern hole.
Almost every Bench Rest shooter can put shot after shot into the same very small hole at 100 yards.The same shooters can' t quite replicate this performance out at 300 yards or further,even pro rata.The data is extensive and there for anyone to see-Bruce puts it on this site too.Why not-the dispersal factors have to be part of the reason.I don' t know of any remotely comparable set of data from hillbillies etc,but I'm sure if a demonstration could be set up,there would be quite a crowd of interested target shooters,and varminters.I would not be surprised if the hillbilly did well,but I would be if he shot inside the parameters of physics,consistently more than the best other shooters. If he wasn' t clearly better,what does that tell you?We could even use one of them that bolluckstics books as a target,and if he hit it much more often,that would prove all the theory is well...bolluckstics.Would'nt it??

Of course there are some very good shooters,but they don't disproove the basic laws of ballistics- they have much reduced their shooter error.Some can do so at long distance,and for (Kentucky ?) windage.Crows beware!

Gbal

[kent]

No actually BR shooters can maintain a heck of a group even at substantial range. Placement of the group is a whole different ball game. It only needs to be together and on the paper and sighting shots are allowed to achieve this aim

[gbal]

No actually BR shooters can maintain a heck of a group even at substantial range. Placement of the group is a whole different ball game. It only needs to be together and on the paper and sighting shots are allowed to achieve this aim

Yes of course,you are right-essentially BR is about precision,not accuracy.My point though is that their groups,and they are very very good,which is why I used them,are better than these hillbilly performances are implied to be,as range increases.To get the accuracy,just substitute F class for BR,and the same conclusion is quite clear for accuracy.Some good comparative data will be available from the Diggle gopher and Egg shoot this weekend,with hillbilly like targets too,but at extended ranges.These guys are good,but I don't think the hillbilly would beat them consistently.However that might be,such competitions just very clearly indicate thar regular and consistent performance in the field which claims a very high percentage of first,or sevond,shot hits have to be done by shooters who are very much better than these competition shooters,who do it publically.Possible,but about as likely as hitting the egg with a similar consistency,ie not.Remember,we are talking about small targets,sub moa,at considerable distances in typical conditions for field shooting.Even with sighters,the Fclass/BR show how difficult it is.There is simply no really comparable set of data for our hillbillies etc,other than sparse and sometimes anecdotal examples,most of which have no real measurements,or when they do,are evidence of good shooting,but not in the same class for precision and accuracy,and very few,if any, seem to be long range.

I'd be very interested to see the Hillbilly Shootout Championship,but it's not going to happen -nor have I heard of many former hillbillies on the quite lucrative-by hillbilly standards- US competition circuit.If there is respect and admiration to be given,the best of our Fclass and BR shooters are deserving of it.

 

Gbal

[achosenman]

How do I get into F class or BR?

 

Do I just buy the gear and start shooting or do I get selected?

 

ATB

[kent]

How do I get into F class or BR?

 

Do I just buy the gear and start shooting or do I get selected?

 

ATB

 

Join a club that shoots it regular to decent ranges. There are not that many and some sort of play at it, shooting only very limited ranges due to facilities.

[achosenman]

So it's a self select discipline then.

 

ATB

[kent]

So it's a self select discipline then.

 

ATB

yep, in as far as shooting the discipline goes. Winning and selection for further stuff is performance lead.

[kent]

 

guys,

Count your rounds fired to kills, this is mandatory in one of the wildfowling clubs of which I am a member. Decide were the "acceptable" lies for you, one miss in a hundred or one bad shot in five. I have just personally had a string of unexplained and unexpected misses but last night I got it in the words of Farther Ted " these are small, those are far away" been mis-ranging little bunnies from what I saw through the scope! They have recently appeared and in the low light on the fell I have been missing noticing the rounded head and stubby little ears

[achosenman]

I always count the misses mate. That will give you a clue as to how the home load is performing.

 

I do vermin control. I take the guess work out and range the target with Zeiss RF bins. I also use a BT Kestrel talking to my Ballistic App. I set up and clear a problem area over several hours over a few days. I need results for the landowner not days sat out playing the sportsman.

 

That's why I know that kills beyond 250m are an everyday occurrence, but then I don't try to do it with factory loads in a factory rifle with inadequate optics.

 

ATB

[gbal]

I always count the misses mate. That will give you a clue as to how the home load is performing.

 

I do vermin control. I take the guess work out and range the target with Zeiss RF bins. I also use a BT Kestrel talking to my Ballistic App. I set up and clear a problem area over several hours over a few days. I need results for the landowner not days sat out playing the sportsman.

 

That's why I know that kills beyond 250m are an everyday occurrence, but then I don't try to do it with factory loads in a factory rifle with inadequate optics .

 

Fine.I can see why you might be interested in Fclass and BR type shooting.

I,m sure that eg Vince from Diggle will give you information on it.They do some at Bisley too,these two being long range.

 

Have a look at the results from the coming Diggle Egg shoot,usually posted on this site.It's shot at three distances out to 500 yards at a gopher size target.The results are interesting,and a reality check,bearing in mind these are very good shooters,with the best equipment.

Gbal

 

 

 

 

 

 

[minkstone]

If it's classed as an "egg shoot" then why not shoot at egg sized targets?....Iv'e seen a good friend hit "chicken eggs" 3 in fact 0ne after another sat on sticks at 500 yds after just dialling in with NO sighters using a "factory" Tikka 595 .223 and a bipod!.....so why don't the target boys do it using their bigger calibre target rifles?.....or is my friend just one of those "exceptionally talented" shooters that prefers to let his shooting do the talking in the field rather than on the internet?

 

Regards.

[Crosshair]

If it's classed as an "egg shoot" then why not shoot at egg sized targets?....Iv'e seen a good friend hit "chicken eggs" 3 in fact 0ne after another sat on sticks at 500 yds after just dialling in with NO sighters using a "factory" Tikka 595 .223 and a bipod!.....so why don't the target boys do it using their bigger calibre target rifles?.....or is my friend just one of those "exceptionally talented" shooters that prefers to let his shooting do the talking in the field rather than on the internet?Regards.

He was either in a 500y long tunnel or shooting on the one day of the year with no wind

 

For me, as a keeper, every shot counts. I usually start off early spring with the .22 potting off the crows. Trouble is, every time you shoot one, its mate learns the game. So they sit further away. That stage is usually reached about the same time I start catching more regularly in Larsens so in previous years I've resorted to the .243 for stragglers. This year, with my .223, it's basically enabled me to extend the time I can shoot them on the fields. This morning, I caught one in my four Larsen traps and shot 3, a magpie and a pigeon with the .223. The furthest was about 160 yards so definitely out of .22 range. I missed one 260 yard magpie which, judging by the cloud of dirt, had a very lucky escape! And I missed another attempt at a 300 yard crow which I couldn't detect in the longer grass.

 

For me, I need to be killing 95% at < 200 yards, 50% at 200-250 yards and after that I know I'm taking a punt on the wind. The only good thing about the longer range shots is that they don't tend to associate it with the vehicle.

For foxes, I've never shot at one past 280 yards (that was with the new .223 and I only took it on with a 12o'clock wind and the convenient fact I had range-findered the field earlier in the day ) and out of my last 60 shots at foxes, I shot 51.

I do not need a lamp shy fox so I tend to make very sure with those although I don't mind taking a punt in daylight if there's no way of getting closer.

[achosenman]

_{I think the shooting talent pool is deeper than just F class and BR.}

 

_{I do not denigrate or suggest that there is a lack of extremely talented shooters competing, it's just that all the competitions are by their very nature self selecting. The selectors' will only choose the best on offer. For me that reduces the value of the statistics so far offered as corroboration to any particular POV.}

 

_{I have competed (a long time ago) and I know what it means to win. It is however tempered by the fact that the win only means that you did the best on the day...nothing more.}

 

_{I have been fortunate enough to witness some fine marksmen/women at work in many shooting discipline's. I thought the skill level was remarkable. What some might find more remarkable, is that they had no interest in competitive shooting. They just enjoyed what they did...and did it.}

 

_ATB

[gbal]

If it's classed as an "egg shoot" then why not shoot at egg sized targets?....Iv'e seen a good friend hit "chicken eggs" 3 in fact 0ne after another sat on sticks at 500 yds after just dialling in with NO sighters using a "factory" Tikka 595 .223 and a bipod!.....so why don't the target boys do it using their bigger calibre target rifles?.....or is my friend just one of those "exceptionally talented" shooters that prefers to let his shooting do the talking in the field rather than on the internet?Regards.

 

The Egg shoot ends with a shot at a hen's egg at 500 yards.But it's preceeded by three shots at the gopher target

,at each of 100,300and 500 yards.

The egg does not get hit very often,and a lot of shots miss the gopher at 500 .

This of course is usually with rifles that are considerably more accurate than most factory riles.

Your friend should try it.The comment about (internetshooters) is not warranted,the egg shoot etc is for real,and done in front of other shooters,and measured and verified.There are also quite a lot of shots fired ,say ten by each of maybe forty shooters.Quite a reasonable sample,and it's done each year.

None of this means your friend is not an outstanding shooter,indeed if he does such egg shooting regularly,then it rather argues that he is.

 

Gbal

 

 

 

[gbal]

_{I think the shooting talent pool is deeper than just F class and BR.}

 

_{I do not denigrate or suggest that there is a lack of extremely talented shooters competing, it's just that all the competitions are by their very nature self selecting. The selectors' will only choose the best on offer. For me that reduces the value of the statistics so far offered as corroboration to any particular POV.}

 

_{I have competed (a long time ago) and I know what it means to win. It is however tempered by the fact that the win only means that you did the best on the day...nothing more.}

 

_{I have been fortunate enough to witness some fine marksmen/women at work in many shooting discipline's. I thought the skill level was remarkable. What some might find more remarkable, is that they had no interest in competitive shooting. They just enjoyed what they did...and did it.}

 

_ATB

 

 

Hi-i think you misunderstand both BR and Fclas competitions.Anyone can take part,given their equipment is within the rules.There is no selection of only the good shots,though I daresay those who know they cannot shoot sensibly decide not to turn up.There is nonetheless a fair ability range present.

The egg shoot is also a very good example of similar to field condition shooting,and many entering are field shooters too.As are some top competition shooters.

The essential point is simply reinforced though,insofar as such disciplines do not produce consistent perfect performance,how much less likely is it that (m) any field shooters will.The BR and Fclass performances are impressive but remain a substantial data base attesting just how difficult long range shooting is,for all but the very best,some of whom will never shoot in these competitions or disciplines,of course.

Gbal

[MJR]

Ronny, comparing a long range military snipers exploits in a theatre of war has very little cross over to conventional civvies 'varminting'. The range let alone everything else is just incomparable, in the magnitude of 10x before,you even consider environmental effects.

Regarding your comments regarding BD's experience, well you could not be more wrong if you tried. I am not going into personal details but be advised he is extremely well qualified, an extremely good shot and yes I have had the pleasure of witnessing him shoot. It would be extreme folly on your part to question his ballistic knowledge and advise.

[minkstone]

He was either in a 500y long tunnel or shooting on the one day of the year with no wind

 

For me, as a keeper, every shot counts. I usually start off early spring with the .22 potting off the crows. Trouble is, every time you shoot one, its mate learns the game. So they sit further away. That stage is usually reached about the same time I start catching more regularly in Larsens so in previous years I've resorted to the .243 for stragglers. This year, with my .223, it's basically enabled me to extend the time I can shoot them on the fields. This morning, I caught one in my four Larsen traps and shot 3, a magpie and a pigeon with the .223. The furthest was about 160 yards so definitely out of .22 range. I missed one 260 yard magpie which, judging by the cloud of dirt, had a very lucky escape! And I missed another attempt at a 300 yard crow which I couldn't detect in the longer grass.

 

For me, I need to be killing 95% at < 200 yards, 50% at 200-250 yards and after that I know I'm taking a punt on the wind. The only good thing about the longer range shots is that they don't tend to associate it with the vehicle.

For foxes, I've never shot at one past 280 yards (that was with the new .223 and I only took it on with a 12o'clock wind and the convenient fact I had range-findered the field earlier in the day ) and out of my last 60 shots at foxes, I shot 51.

I do not need a lamp shy fox so I tend to make very sure with those although I don't mind taking a punt in daylight if there's no way of getting closer.

 

No he wasn't in a 500yd tunnel, and yes the weather was pretty favourable Crosshair,... however you choose to look at it it's pretty damn fine shooting by anyones standards that i and a few others have personally witnessed over the years, all down to practice, practice, practice!

The fella in question has made plenty of video's that were on "you tube" showing some of his remarkable shooting, and yes he does have his fair share of misses, mainly due to the wind, yet again pulling off shots in conditions that the average shooter would never dream of attempting.

 

However as is always the case, shooters of his ability always have "doubters" and "knockers"

 

 

Regards.

[minkstone]

The Egg shoot ends with a shot at a hen's egg at 500 yards.But it's preceeded by three shots at the gopher target ,at each of 100,300and 500 yards. The egg does not get hit very often,and a lot of shots miss the gopher at 500 . This of course is usually with rifles that are considerably more accurate than most factory riles. Your friend should try it.The comment about (internetshooters) is not warranted,the egg shoot etc is for real,and done in front of other shooters,and measured and verified.There are also quite a lot of shots fired ,say ten by each of maybe forty shooters.Quite a reasonable sample,and it's done each year. None of this means your friend is not an outstanding shooter,indeed if he does such egg shooting regularly,then it rather argues that he is. Gbal

 

Gbal, out of curiousity, what sort of calibres are used in this discipline, is it a "bring what you got" shoot or specific calibre and above?

 

Regards.

[Crosshair]

No he wasn't in a 500yd tunnel, and yes the weather was pretty favourable Crosshair,... however you choose to look at it it's pretty damn fine shooting by anyones standards that i and a few others have personally witnessed over the years, all down to practice, practice, practice!The fella in question has made plenty of video's that were on "you tube" showing some of his remarkable shooting, and yes he does have his fair share of misses, mainly due to the wind, yet again pulling off shots in conditions that the average shooter would never dream of attempting.However as is always the case, shooters of his ability always have "doubters" and "knockers"Regards.

I'm neither doubting or knocking him- that is indeed some mighty fine shooting.

 

I remember helping my fellow beatkeeper zero his 22.250 one day, although as a 16 year old know-it-all, I'm not sure I was much help. Anyway, our head keeper heard the shooting and drove over to see what we were doing. With a wry chuckle, he drove away.

He got about 250y away, swung his land rover round, put his (i cant remember what make but it had a heavy barrel and laminated stock) 22.250 on the wing mirror, fired one shot at our target and drove off.

When we walked down the valley to see the result, there was a perfect bull on the tiny air gun target we were hoping to finish up having a pop at.

He had quietly put us in our place

[MJR]

I very much doubt BD has much to learn from a 'simple minded hillbilly'. But I do agree you would learn a lot...

[achosenman]

Ronny "One shot one kill" is Hollywood hype. Don't get taken in.

 

Snipers work in pairs and one of the spotters job, is to call the shot.

 

Don't be fooled by the CH story. He might have needed to make adjustments but he was engaging so far out of his rifles effective range this was always going to be the case. What he accomplished was staggering.

 

ATB

 

PS BD is the real deal mate.