Elcho 17 & TR140

[Dooty]

Hi, just wondering if anybody has started playing with these powders yet. With Varget drying up, and it would seem most other popular .308 powders, I have seem these advertised at £55 for a kilo and as i am being led to believe when the supplies of powder resume there could well be an increase to the cost is it worth switching to either of these?

 

Elcho 17 apparently IS Reloader 17 but this seems to be used for heavier bullets in .308, TR140 is similar to N140. I am currently shooting 167 scenars but am going to switch to 175 matchkings so hoping to cut cost's all round really. Has anybody got any load data for these powders? Obviously a load would have to be worked up in my Savage but are they worth switching too ?

[gbal]

Hi, just wondering if anybody has started playing with these powders yet. With Varget drying up, and it would seem most other popular .308 powders, I have seem these advertised at £55 for a kilo and as i am being led to believe when the supplies of powder resume there could well be an increase to the cost is it worth switching to either of these?

 

Elcho 17 apparently IS Reloader 17 but this seems to be used for heavier bullets in .308, TR140 is similar to N140. I am currently shooting 167 scenars but am going to switch to 175 matchkings so hoping to cut cost's all round really. Has anybody got any load data for these powders? Obviously a load would have to be worked up in my Savage but are they worth switching too ?

[Laurie]

Elcho 17 is a slow burner for 308, so is only neeeded and/or works well with heavy bullets (200-230gn), stiff high-pressure loads, and is at its best in Lapua Palma (small primer) brass.

 

TR140 is either Viht N140 or so close a clone it makes no difference in 308 Win. Viht's maximum for the 175gn SMK is an anemic 41.4gn. I'd start at ~40.5gn and work up in 0.3 or 0.4gn steps. You should get good results without excessive pressures somewhere betweeen 42.5 and 43.5gn in Lapua or RWS brass. Norma or Winchester cases allow another 0.5gn easily.

 

Incidentally, Viht N150 works exceptionally well with this bullet in most rifles. If you can afford the outlay, a 3.5 Kg bottle brings the per lb price down a lot and lasts a long time.

[Brillo]

I have used both Elcho 17 and TR140. All the testing I have done with Elcho 17 confirms it is RL17 (at least it confirms it for me). TR140 is very close to Viht 140 but it is definitely not the same powder. One is of Swiss origin and the other Swedish. It's density is slightly different and I spent considerable time calculating an algorithm that enables me to take a Viht 140 load and translate this into one for TR140.

 

IMHO TR140 is better that Viht. Performance is marginally better and it is lot cheaper too.

 

Incidentally both powders work really well in the 6.5x47L cartridge with the 123 and 139 grain Lapua Scenar pills.

[brown dog]

If Elcho 17 really 100% is reloader 17 in a different tin, I don't suppose there's an Elcho 15 with the same read-across?

[Laurie]

Vihtavuori, both the town and the onetime propellant plant 10km outside it that bears its name are in Finland, not Sweden. Moreover, Vihtavuori OY the company as was is a cog in the multinational Eurenco explosives manufacturing machine

 

http://www.eurenco.com/en/index.html

 

Moreover, one that is no longer needed by its owners as the rundown of western government involvement in various recent wars plus the worldwide recession induced squeeze on military expenditure has produced a near catastrophic drop in the demand for milspec smallarms ammunition and hence powder, the main market for any propellant manufacturer. Worse almost, the West's biggest single consumer of smallarms ammunition, the US armed forces has a policy of only using ball form powders, and has done so since the introduction of 7.62X51mm NATO in the late 1950s. There are a few exceptions for special-purpose ammunition like the M118LR sniper round.

 

The upshot is that Eurenco has a factory too many and it looks like Vihtavuori is expendable. It's been for sale for some time and it seems there are no takers. I know people already 'panic-buying' Viht as it's 'about to disappear' in their view. If the Viht plant is eventually sold - now looking extremely unlikely - presumably we get the same range as now. I say 'presumably' as we may very well not depending on the financial robustness of any new structure. If the plant closes, the odds are it'll continue as now with Vihtavuoru branding, but made in one or more Eurenco facilities elsewhere.

 

I strongly suspect this process has started and recent N140 is Swiss made whether it's sold as Viht or Commonside Firearms' TR. Why do I think that? I've tested the pair side by side in both 223 and 308 over a range of charge weights with all other components kept identical. Tests used the same rifles and were carried out in a single session. Group sizes, average MVs and MV spreads were extremely close, so close any differences were smaller than you often find between different production lots of some other makes of powder.

 

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks - it usually IS a duck!

.

[Laurie]

If Elcho 17 really 100% is reloader 17 in a different tin, I don't suppose there's an Elcho 15 with the same read-across?

 

 

No.

 

Re15 is made by Bofors in Sweden and is either sold as a Bofors handloading propellant in its own right which we don't get in the UK or supplied in bulk to the smallarms propellant division of Alliant ATK in the US. Until Re17 came along, all Alliant rifle powders were sourced from Bofors.

 

Re17 is purchased by Alliant from Nitro-Chemie AG, a Swiss manufacturer. It was originally developed for the most recent version of the venerable 7.5X55mm GP31 Swiss military cartridge, which is still in production even though obsolescent as it's still used in Swiss GPMGs and there is a large market from all those Swiss compettive riflemen firing IG and KAR1911, KAR31 straight-pulls, not to mention the StG57 early Swiss service assault rifle. (What a rifle! I'd love to shoot one.)

 

This powder uses a completely different and secret chemical process from conventional double-base powders to infuse the whole grain with the deterrent chemcicals, not just surface-coat them. That's allegedly why it gives such high velocities compared to equivalent conventional powders such as Bofors / Alliant Re19. When Re17 was initially released we were promised a whole range of such super high energy powders, but they don't seem to have surfaced yet.

 

The sole new powder in that bracket is Alliant AR-Comp. It arose from a project to make Re15 more temperature stable. It (re15) is currently loaded in the US 7.62X51mm M118LR 175gn sniper round but is badly temperature affected - bad news if you're using it in Afghanistan in an M21 or M110 semi-auto sniper rifle! AR-Comp is a modified version of Re15 and has achieved the desired temperature stability it's said, but it's not the same powder, burning rather slower. I've asked Derek Edgar if we'll see it here and the answer is 'probably not' as Alliant believe it's a semi-auto rifle propellant and probably won't spend the time and money on CE certification to sell it to what they regard as a small market in Europe. No CE stamp, no legal sale. As best I can learn, it's not linked to Re17 anyway, but is made by Bofors again. Commonside's buying links seems to be rather further south and produces the Swiss made stuff.

[dannywayoflife]

I've just started testing TR140 in 223 with 75 Amax's I'm very new to reloading but some of my initial series seem promising with 1 group (shot at a very windy bisley) measured around .5-.75 MOA no idea on speeds yet but I'm sure that they won't be very high yet as I started pretty low and I'm currently only at 24.4 grains. I'm really hoping I can develop a nice sub .5moa load with this combo.

[Dooty]

Thanks for the replies.

 

Laurie, I gather that was your data published in July's issue of Target Shooter, testing done in March at Diggle? Looks like if I was to ditch Varget the TR140 would be the one to go for, my only concern is that Varget is a known performer so if TR140 is good and the cost is very good is it starting to become more popular?

[brown dog]

No.

 

Re15 is made by Bofors in Sweden and is either sold as a Bofors handloading propellant in its own right which we don't get in the UK or supplied in bulk to the smallarms propellant division of Alliant ATK in the US. Until Re17 came along, all Alliant rifle powders were sourced from Bofors.

 

Re17 is purchased by Alliant from Nitro-Chemie AG, a Swiss manufacturer. It was originally developed for the most recent version of the venerable 7.5X55mm GP31 Swiss military cartridge, which is still in production even though obsolescent as it's still used in Swiss GPMGs and there is a large market from all those Swiss compettive riflemen firing IG and KAR1911, KAR31 straight-pulls, not to mention the StG57 early Swiss service assault rifle. (What a rifle! I'd love to shoot one.)

 

This powder uses a completely different and secret chemical process from conventional double-base powders to infuse the whole grain with the deterrent chemcicals, not just surface-coat them. That's allegedly why it gives such high velocities compared to equivalent conventional powders such as Bofors / Alliant Re19. When Re17 was initially released we were promised a whole range of such super high energy powders, but they don't seem to have surfaced yet.

 

The sole new powder in that bracket is Alliant AR-Comp. It arose from a project to make Re15 more temperature stable. It (re15) is currently loaded in the US 7.62X51mm M118LR 175gn sniper round but is badly temperature affected - bad news if you're using it in Afghanistan in an M21 or M110 semi-auto sniper rifle! AR-Comp is a modified version of Re15 and has achieved the desired temperature stability it's said, but it's not the same powder, burning rather slower. I've asked Derek Edgar if we'll see it here and the answer is 'probably not' as Alliant believe it's a semi-auto rifle propellant and probably won't spend the time and money on CE certification to sell it to what they regard as a small market in Europe. No CE stamp, no legal sale. As best I can learn, it's not linked to Re17 anyway, but is made by Bofors again. Commonside's buying links seems to be rather further south and produces the Swiss made stuff.

Thanks Laurie!

[garyw]

Thanks for the replies.

 

Laurie, I gather that was your data published in July's issue of Target Shooter, testing done in March at Diggle? Looks like if I was to ditch Varget the TR140 would be the one to go for, my only concern is that Varget is a known performer so if TR140 is good and the cost is very good is it starting to become more popular?

i use el 17 in my 6x47 and its very good if a little dirty burning-another member on here-GARYS has been testing TR140 in his 6mm br as a sub for varget if i get hold of him or he sees this post he will pass on the info.

[bradders]

If Elcho 17 really 100% is reloader 17 in a different tin, I don't suppose there's an Elcho 15 with the same read-across?

 

There will be soon,

I spoke to the guy selling it yesterday and he says that he's waiting on CE approval etc before he starts selling it.

He's promised me a sampling to evaluate and I should hopefully get it this weekend.

I will of course only be testing it in .223 for now

[The Gun Pimp]

Hi, just wondering if anybody has started playing with these powders yet. With Varget drying up, and it would seem most other popular .308 powders, I have seem these advertised at £55 for a kilo and as i am being led to believe when the supplies of powder resume there could well be an increase to the cost is it worth switching to either of these?

 

Elcho 17 apparently IS Reloader 17 but this seems to be used for heavier bullets in .308, TR140 is similar to N140. I am currently shooting 167 scenars but am going to switch to 175 matchkings so hoping to cut cost's all round really. Has anybody got any load data for these powders? Obviously a load would have to be worked up in my Savage but are they worth switching too ?

 

Elcho 17 is stunning in the small 'sixes' - 6x47, 6BR, Dasher and the like.

[Laurie]

Thanks for the replies.

 

Laurie, I gather that was your data published in July's issue of Target Shooter, testing done in March at Diggle? Looks like if I was to ditch Varget the TR140 would be the one to go for, my only concern is that Varget is a known performer so if TR140 is good and the cost is very good is it starting to become more popular?

 

 

TR140 has acquired a large following in some clubs as the word has got around - N140 performance at a substantial discount. I don't think people are switching to it from Varget, unless of course they can't get Varget which has pretty well disappeared across the board, likewise H4895.

 

I'd agree with Vince that Re17 / E17 is THE powder for some of the mid size sixes. I use it in 6XC with 105 to 108s and haven't seen anything that comes close so far in its combination of group and MV. Of course, there are no free lunches and you pay for an extra 100 + fps in reduced barrel life.

 

I'm intrigued by Bradders' hint. Is that AR-Comp you're referring to Mark? If so, a slightly slower burning and quite temperature stable 'improved Re15' should be just the ticket for 80-90gn VLDs in a long-throat single-shot 223 F/TR rifle. It'll be more than useful in many other cartridges too including 308 with 175gn and heavier bullets.

[foxing2night]

Laurie your the man

[bradders]

TR140 has acquired a large following in some clubs as the word has got around - N140 performance at a substantial discount. I don't think people are switching to it from Varget, unless of course they can't get Varget which has pretty well disappeared across the board, likewise H4895.

 

I'd agree with Vince that Re17 / E17 is THE powder for some of the mid size sixes. I use it in 6XC with 105 to 108s and haven't seen anything that comes close so far in its combination of group and MV. Of course, there are no free lunches and you pay for an extra 100 + fps in reduced barrel life.

 

I'm intrigued by Bradders' hint. Is that AR-Comp you're referring to Mark? If so, a slightly slower burning and quite temperature stable 'improved Re15' should be just the ticket for 80-90gn VLDs in a long-throat single-shot 223 F/TR rifle. It'll be more than useful in many other cartridges too including 308 with 175gn and heavier bullets.

Laurie,

Nigel (the guy selling it) told me on the phone yesterday that he has a Reloder 15 "clone" and is just awaiting the CE certification before he starts to sell it.

He says he will probably call it Elcho 15, and as I said has a small amount, of which he is willing to let me have some (maybe 1/2 pound or so) that I can try out.

 

I told him that the staple diet for our PR/CSR shooters is RL 15 behind a 77 SMK, but with the non availability, as well as the cost, I am looking for a substitute to offer our gang.

He has also stated that he's looking into producing quality 155 bullets and crusierweight (as I call them) .223 bullets similar to 77's.

This is good as it means more British products and less reliance on the Americans.

 

BTW, Kranks got a shipment of Ramshot powders in last week including Tac and Wild Boar.

I am happy about this because it means that there is a reliable supply of consumables starting to build up for us on this little island.

 

I already have and use Tac but would like to give Wild Boar a try, and at £32.50/lb it's not too unreasonable.

 

I'm also planning on giving TR140 a go too.

[Laurie]

Thanks Mark - very interesting / good news.

 

I've been playing with Ramshot powders too, only in .308W so far and coincidentally was writing an introduction to the 8 grades Henry Krank gets for TargetShooter Online as you posted your mention.

 

Wild Boar which appears to be the same as or similar to the US available Belgian made AA-2520 (not our old version made by Explosia in the Czech Republic and still coming in thanks to Westlander) looks like it may be a very good heavy bullet 223R powder with stunningly high MVs claimed.

 

I liked Ramshot when Minsterley imported / sold them briefly years back so was very pleased to see them back. They're a good alternative to the US supplied powders - Kranks gets them direct from the Belgian manufacturer - and as you say cheaper. They burn MUCH cleaner than the St. Marks manufactured US ball powders sold as Winchester and Hodgdon.

 

One tip - don't use them in an RCBS ChargeMaster or similar auto-dispensing machines. They run too well and will get inside the casing gumming up the works. They're great in older mechanical powder measures.

[brown dog]

Wildly informative thread

 

Great news from Mark on an RL15 clone.

I'm still a 6.5x47 newbie; just gone to RL15 and kept using it.

 

I'm intrigued by Bradders' hint. Is that AR-Comp you're referring to Mark? If so, a slightly slower burning and quite temperature stable 'improved Re15' should be just the ticket for 80-90gn VLDs in a long-throat single-shot 223 F/TR rifle. It'll be more than useful in many other cartridges too including 308 with 175gn and heavier bullets.

 

I'm not sure, if it is a slower RL15 clone (RL16?!) is it likely to still be suitable for 123gr from a 6.5x47?

[dannywayoflife]

It would be great to have a British supply of bullets!

[pc1]

I would"t mind trying some elcho 17 where can i get some from ?

[Laurie]

Brian Fox on Diggle Ranges

 

http://www.foxfirearmsuk.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=47&Itemid=61

 

I think Dolphin Gun Company near Louth, Lincs also stocks TR140 and E17

 

http://www.dolphinguncompany.co.uk/index.php?option=com_contact&view=contact&id=1&Itemid=91

[Brillo]

Dolphin definitely sells them and HPS in Gloucester. That's where I got mine from. HTH

[pc1]

Cheers for the info i might have a couple of kgs all been well and if not i can speak to Brian when i am up there next

[redding]

Hi

Just starting to use TR 140 with Barnes TSX, no results yet but it is "similar" to Vit 140.

I though the PDF below might be useful.

 

TR 140.pdf

[Simon J]

more reloading data now available on the nitrochemie website - Google swiss reload ! I think powder 62 is probably Elcho 17 but that is just a guess.

 

Simon