User thoughts on S&B 3-20 PM2?

[brown dog]

Grateful for opinion on the 3-20 PM2 from users.

 

Watched Thomas's vid (below), I think I detect "Don't like" (Thomas comment?)

 

I'm thinking it's a better size than a 5-25; rather like a 4-16 with a bit of extra magnification. Is that borne out in practice?

 

Thanks

 

[Hatzi]

Optics good, reticle and specification and illumination good. 2nd turn indicator good, clicks good and MTC function is nice. Better field of view on like for like mag setting compared to old 5-25 pmii. Reticle size from 3-20 is perfect with illumination levels spot on.

 

Tuurets are fiddly, they still click qwhen tesetting zero which always makes me nervous lol. Is the locking collar needed?

New lens cap very bulky, require artificially high mounting from the barrel and the back end interferes with the bolt stoke.

 

Butler creeks may break but dont get in the way!

 

2 year warranty is not inspiring to put it mildly

[brown dog]

Optics good, reticle and specification and illumination good. 2nd turn indicator good, clicks good and MTC function is nice. Better field of view on like for like mag setting compared to old 5-25 pmii. Reticle size from 3-20 is perfect with illumination levels spot on.

 

Tuurets are fiddly, they still click qwhen tesetting zero which always makes me nervous lol. Is the locking collar needed?

New lens cap very bulky, require artificially high mounting from the barrel and the back end interferes with the bolt stoke.

 

Butler creeks may break but dont get in the way!

 

2 year warranty is not inspiring to put it mildly

Thanks Chris, great summary.

(The lockable turrets do strike me as a solution for a problem that isn't there- peculiar )

[Hatzi]

i dont dislike the locking collars, i just dont see the need. the scope caps are very durable but they require an extra half inch or barrel clerance which seems like solving a problem (butler creek durability is poor) but creating another. thankfully the oversized objective ring unscrews to reveal a normal parallel tube

[ChrisF]

BD ,

 

I would stick to the older PMIIs , ie ones that are NOT MTC or LT ( locking turrets ) , so put simply the normal ST or yellow window DT knobs .

So until the 3-20 is available as a normal DT knobs , I would not bother , and stick to 4-16x50 or the 5-25x56 models .

 

A lot of talk of the newer gen PMIIs being substandard in quality & durability when compared to the OLD ones , so to me its the TAN models and all the MTC/LT models etc .

 

I have used MTCs knobs on Premiers , and donot like them & thats from actually using them & not reading a flyer etc , and as such will avoid all scopes with this feature .

 

So it woould be quite easy for S&B to virtually destory thier rep as a top Tactical scope builder , so dropping quality & large price increases are potentially going to stop ME from maybe ever buying another new Bender , and ONLY buying the older 2nd hand Benders , its a shame , BUT thats maybe where we are heading .

 

And as Bender are now putting a very high price on their 5-25x , 3-27x PMIIs , ie 5.5K , then thats into the same price point as a new Zeiss/Hensoldt 3.5-26x56 Tact scope , of the 2 , I would get the Zeiss as long as they DROP the expensive & crap MTC knob feature .

 

Not what you wnated to hear .

 

 

Later Chris

[Hatzi]

Not that im suggesting anything......... but i had a premier a couple of years back and its design was spookily heading towards a pmii and now the new pmiis are adopting many of the functions seen on the premier like the mtc and lens caps, atill clicking when resetting primary zero on turrets etc

[Roe]

Funny how scopes develop - I haven't measured, but the gripping surface on the new low S&B turrets (shown IWA 2013) depart radically from established designs and looks identical to my turrets gripping surface.

 

I bought the 3-20x on want of a more compact option than the 5-25x and a little more performance than my 4-16x's. So far the scope hasn't seen life on any of my "important" rifles.

Optics ok, lens covers great improvement, light ok at low settings not nearly good enough for daylight. With proper illumination this scope would be useful at low magnifications for shooting moving targets. At present, it is near useless at low magnification - I'd rather see them use the magnification range at the higher end, say a 5-30 plus x instead of the current configuration.

 

I'm no fan of the new MTC/LT turret for the following reasons:

• The MTC function is cut a little wrong and interferes with rapid dialing.

• The LT collar interfered with the fingers, occasionally causing slippage. The collar is not needed to operate the locking function.

• Only 1 O-ring works against gravity and protects the internal adjustment mechanism against grit. Without hard use I have managed to get debris into the "greasepit", and it is currently assaulting the rubber. I'm sure the scope has been tested, but I doubt the longevity will be as good as the older versions.

I am currently rebuilding this turret and exploring two options:

• Low profile replacement DT turret. Greasepit covered.

• Same profile rebuild, ballistic shims. Greasepit covered.

In this video you catch a view of the internals and can make up your own mind of the construction:

[John MH]

OMG, braver man than I.

[Roe]

No worries, all done for a reason. Incredible how many haters the above video attracted

Much cheaper to use the dremel and a file than contracting a machine shop and engineers at the initial tests.

 

[brown dog]

I bought the 3-20x on want of a more compact option than the 5-25x and a little more performance than my 4-16x's. So far the scope hasn't seen life on any of my "important" rifles.

That's exactly the way I was thinking (albeit intuition and not hands-on!).

 

Ditto on 3-20 being a little 'odd' as a zoom range choice - a bit 'in-between' what might be truly useful.

 

Turrets - your low profile idea sounds spot on (again - intuition not hands-on!)

[brown dog]

 

Just watched that: Wow!

Think that firmly underlines your views on how shite the locking turret and MTC idea is!

[DaveT]

I can see why you did the modification but it was like watching one of those gory surgery programs on TV!.... Fascinating but you tend to wince a bit!

[Roe]

Fascinating but you tend to wince a bit!

 

Yes I caught some flak for my eagerness with the Dremel

 

A short update:

Low profile turret option no-go due internal construction.

 

The work on new turrets will start next weekend:

• No locking function
• No MTC function, allthough I could replace the MTC with a custom cut BDC (tactile click every 100 meter instead of every 10 click).
• The "greasepit" will be covered. I see no reason to work against the natural forces. Gravity, debris and humidity will eventually conquer one O-ring with direct exposure.
• Better grip

[triggersqueezer]

can someone tell me how it ended i fainted

[Sapper811]

With the possibility of being a new S & B purchaser does anyone think that the so called crap new features MTC and LT make the scope a no go for a first major class scope purchase ? Or would a newby notice these issues ? Looking at the 3-20 for a planned .308 mid range set up ( mid range being 500 - 800m ish ) thanks

[terryh]

Sapper,

 

Had a brief fondle of one of the new design S&B's last Saturday.

 

Bottom line - no problem with them, you'd only ask 'why' if you've owned an older model.

 

As folk have said they are giving solutions to problems that did not exist, look at things like the Beast from nightforce or the new Leupolds, horendous great turrets, little sticky out levers etc.

 

All they need to do is make a reliable scope with good glass and some pretty simple features e.g. Simple zero stop.

 

But this is not restricted to optics, new cartridgers i.e. 17 Hornet (as opposed to say 20) or super Winchester rimfires?

 

Terry

[Sapper811]

Sapper,

 

Had a brief fondle of one of the new design S&B's last Saturday.

 

Bottom line - no problem with them, you'd only ask 'why' if you've owned an older model.

 

As folk have said they are giving solutions to problems that did not exist, look at things like the Beast from nightforce or the new Leupolds, horendous great turrets, little sticky out levers etc.

 

All they need to do is make a reliable scope with good glass and some pretty simple features e.g. Simple zero stop.

 

But this is not restricted to optics, new cartridgers i.e. 17 Hornet (as opposed to say 20) or super Winchester rimfires?

 

Terry

Terry, as i thought really. Thanks

[londonhunter]

Just curious

 

So many criticism

 

If the price is in the :,£1500 range

 

Do you think people will still be so critical ?

 

Bottom line

 

It's very very expensive for what it does

[Sapper811]

Terry, as i thought really. Thanks

Will let you know first hand as just ordered one !

[Hatzi]

8/9 weeks and counting on mine, i have lost track now, not even a phonecall or email.

 

If the new 2 year warranty is worrying, don't worry, its 'never-never' in terms of customer contact, or accountability anyway.

[terryh]

8/9 weeks and counting on mine, i have lost track now, not even a phonecall or email.

 

If the new 2 year warranty is worrying, don't worry, its 'never-never' in terms of customer contact, or accountability anyway.

 

Just curious

 

So many criticism

 

If the price is in the :,£1500 range

 

Do you think people will still be so critical ?

 

Bottom line

 

It's very very expensive for what it does

LH, good point, but even at £1000 I would not personally go for a scope with 'extra knobs & levers' and I like slightly lower profile turrets.

 

Terry

[Hatzi]

Glad you think it is funny Terry

[TC]

Sorry, been meaning to post this for a while but have not been near a proper keyboard...

 

I have two 3-20's that I ordered just after SHOT 2011 via a colleague in Germany who works with the factory. They came at a substantial discount from the original 2011 launch price and as such I don't have to feel defensive about having made my choice/spent the money and therefore hope I can give an honest opinion. They showed up last summer as I recall and were some of the earliest produced for civilian sale. I have two 5-25's and a couple of lower mag models to compare to.

 

A few observations:-

 

Size

 

I was expecting a pretty significant size reduction over the 5-25 based on the original SHOT Show videos but it soon became apparent as the details were confirmed the length difference is minor. As previously mentioned the 3-20 comes with large tenabraex (sp?) lens caps. A 3-20 with these caps vs a 5-25 with Butler Creeks is only 2cm shorter. The caps add to the objective diameter as Chris mentioned but as I use the same rings as I use for the 5-25 which has a 6mm larger objective so there is no issue. Of course you could ditch the factory caps but I'm a clumsy sod and break BC caps on a regular basis, the tenabraex are still holding up.

 

So, on paper the size difference is minor although I have put a 3-20 on my Sako 75 6Br Varmint/Sporter(replacing a Zeiss 6-24) and it feels/looks right where as a 5-25 on the same rifle feels like having Hubble sat on top...... can't fully explain it.

 

Turrets

 

I have no need for locking turrets. That said they don't bother me, I just ignore them. I had planned to lock the windage turret when using reticle hold offs but I don't think I have ever bothered... The locking mechanism is stiff, I don't see it coming in to play accidentally. I don't find any problem gripping the turret vs a DT turret.

 

The DT turret including the second turn window is about 3mm higher than the "new" turret, they are the same diameter - I don't know where the impression of them being larger comes from.

 

On delivery the turrets were incredibly stiff, they have eased up somewhat in 9 months or so of use. MTC is handy in low light but dialing to say 5.1 Mils still means going past the mark then back. A less aggressive tactile click may work better and may just need a little filing (but less than Roe's video )

 

In low light the MTC raised indicator for second turn is a smarter idea than the colour change on the DT.

 

The DT turret is so simple to zero, undo two grub screws and reset. Undo the grub screws on the MTC and turn and the damn thing still clicks but no change to the alignment. Took me a while on the first one to work out what was going on but it worked..... I trusted the second one, big mistake, the turret was not disengaging and could not be persuaded to do so. Back to the factory with that one.

 

Glass

 

I have seen posts elsewhere that the 3-20 glass is not up to the same standard as the 5-25. I'm no expert but I have sat the two together at 20 mag, both with MSR reticle and can tell no difference either in good light or at dusk.

 

Reticle

 

The MSR reticle is spot on IMO. A tad thicker than a P4F and not as cluttered in use as I expected from the diagrams. I had a 5-25 P3 which went back to the factory to be upgraded to MSR reticle at the same time as the 3-20 repair - turnaround was circa 4 weeks.

 

 

 

Would I buy a 3-20 over a 5-25 based on the retail price difference? Unlikely, I'd take the extra magnification at the high end vs the low end capability. Massive FoV is not a requirement for me.

 

Would I pay the current retail of either vs looking for a used 5-25 at the right money and upgrading the reticle to MSR? Even more unlikely!

 

Tony

[terryh]

Glad you think it is funny Terry

Chris,

 

I was actually grinning at your responce, not the fact that S&B appear to have gone down the pan giving people poor service.

 

The problem with the internet is the lack of any 'feeling'.

 

Terry

[Hatzi]

No problems terry.

 

I'm going to give them a ring tomorrow and give them some carefully considered comments.