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Is 6.5X55 Suitable for F-Class/BR


Brillo

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I used to own a 6.5x55 Swede target rifle and still have all the reloading dies etc. including 200 cases and about 100 rds of ammo.

I've been toying with having an F-Class/ 1000 yd BR rifle made in this cartridge. What is the consensus opinion?

If no good I'll offer the kit, cases and ammo up for sale.

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I used to use my 6.5x55Ack Imp with the Lapua 139gr Scenar for benchrest and it was very accurate. But since using it for F class at that distance with the GB F class association, It was my experience that the 6.5 was at a slight disadvantage in the wind and was not as good as the 7mm/284 rifles, which had the advantage of using heavier bullets. I think that most f class shooters I know use a 284 calibre (straight 284, 284 Shehane, 7WSM etc).

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I used to own a 6.5x55 Swede target rifle and still have all the reloading dies etc. including 200 cases and about 100 rds of ammo.

I've been toying with having an F-Class/ 1000 yd BR rifle made in this cartridge. What is the consensus opinion?

If no good I'll offer the kit, cases and ammo up for sale.

 

The 6.5 Swede is a remarkably good long range cartridge. At one stage, Peter Wilson held the Factory Sporter 1000 yard group record with his 6.5x55 - group was about five inches if I remember.

 

It's never going to be a winner against more specialised stuff but, if you have one - come and shoot it as it is - get a feel for the discipline.

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I think the implication of the original post is that it involves a new build here. A lot depends on what sort of level of competition and distances you aspire to. if you want to compete at national league level, it's false economy to have a 6.5X55 built because you have cases and dies.

 

If you're going to compete at club level and mostly at up to 600 yards, it's a viable choice although you'll lose out on the margins to people with the likes of .284 Win.

 

The point is that to go to a larger case / powder charge than 6.5X55mm in the 6.5s, and beyond .284 Win in 7mm starts to get expensive in barrel life. A 6.5-284 loaded right up will last ~1,000 rounds, the short magnum sevens 600-900 rounds. So for a new build for mostly club level shooting, I'd say 6.5X55 v .284 Win. If you aspire to national league success, it's .284 Shehane at the minimum and the costs escalate dramatically.

 

So far as 6.5X55 v .284 Win go, here's how the wind effect pans out. The seven is always going to be ballistcally superior, the question is by how much? Let's compare 6.5X55 with a 140gn Berger VLD loaded to 2,850 fps which often provides a sweet spot in 30-inch barrels and the cartridge is quite capable of achieving, and the comparable .284 Win is loaded with a 180gn Berger VLD @ ~2,800 fps. Note we're talking 100% specialised target rifles here, no 24 or 26" barrel tactical rifles or heavy sporters, we're also talking about serioulsy expensive bullets at around 50P each, although there are some good Sierra MKs available at a lot less.

 

If we take 600 yards, and start with the more ballistcally efficient 284, it takes a missed wind change of 3.1 mph / 90-deg angle to move 0.98-MOA laterally. With rings that move out in half-MOA steps, that's the amount that risks losing you 2 points on the F-Class target assuming the bullet strike has perfect elevation, and the rifle is zeroed absolutely spot on.

 

Same wind and switch to the 6.5 and it's 1.01-MOA, hardly different, an increase of 0.03-MOA equating to 0.18-inches.

 

At 1,000 yards, it needs a 1.65 mph / 90-deg wind change to move the 7mm 180 VLD @ 2,800 fps 0.98-MOA.

 

Same wind switch with the 6.5, and it's a 1.05-MOA movement. an increase of 0.07-MOA or just under three-quarters of an inch on the paper.

 

 

These figures look very small, but it's the difference in wind strength / angle between shots and the degree of shooter misreading of the change that's important. I chose the winds that move the 7mm bullet by ~1-MOA as that's the level where a competent Efffer feels he or she has got it really badly wrong when 2 points go awry - many 4 match league shoots finish with the top boys never having shot a 3 all weekend.

 

With such relatively small differences between the cartridges, two factors become crucial:

 

(1) the shooter's skill in reading the wind

(2) rifle / ammunition precision. A really good 6.5 that shoots <0.25-MOA groups in still air at 1K will outperform a ballistically superior 7mm that shoots groups twice the size if the pair are used bys shooters of equal wind-reading ability.

 

So ... some people are going to say, why aren't the F-Class league matches full of 6.5X55mm shooters? Simple answer - the standards are now so high in rifles, ammunition, and shooter skill that a really small ballistics benefit is the difference between maybe 10 places now at the top of the leader boards ......

 

............. and some weekends are ROUGH! If the Diggle shoot had gone ahead last weekend, the forecast winds were to average in the high 20s gusting to 48 mph. In those sorts of wind changes, a good seven will pee all over a good 6.5.

 

Want my opinion FWIW? If you're going for a new rifle build and .....

 

mostly club shooting / 600 yards normally tops and economy / barrel life is important - 6.5X47 Lapua

As above but a bit more performance needed at the expense of barrel life - 6.5X55mm

Taking it seriously and more 800-1K matches - .284 Win

Really taking it seriously for 1K - 284 Shehane or 7-300WSM .... and get a 2nd rifle for club matches.

 

Spending £2-3K on an F-Class rifle and letting the ownership of 200 cases and a set of dies determine the calibre is not a wise move.

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Thanks Laurie. I won't use the quote option for the sake of brevity. Let's just say that you have answered my question most eloquently and given me more information than I could have hoped for.

Quite often shooters buy something that is totally wrong for the intended purpose (I've done it before) and waste money in the process.

The information you have given me now enables me to make an better judgment on what I really want/need. Your last sentence sums it up nicely so I'll not go down the 6.5x55 route. At this stage it looks like it's going to be a .284 based on economics and what I think I'll be shooting.

 

Your advice has been invaluable and I'm sure it's helped others in a similar quandary.

Once again, many thanks.

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I'm not facing this choice myself, but can't help thinking what a fantastic forum UKV is when one can get answers of this calibre (no pun intended).

 

Very impressive and very informative, a good read.

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  • 3 weeks later...
I'm not facing this choice myself, but can't help thinking what a fantastic forum UKV is when one can get answers of this calibre (no pun intended).

 

Very impressive and very informative, a good read.

+ 1. Excellent read indeed.

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mostly club shooting / 600 yards normally tops and economy / barrel life is important - 6.5X47 Lapua

 

Great post Laurie and in total agreement about the 6.5x47 Lapua. Even out to 1000yds it's a hard caliber to beat with wind speeds under 15mph.

 

Unfortunately of course, wind speeds in excess of that are all to frequent :blink:

 

Brian

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Great post Laurie and in total agreement about the 6.5x47 Lapua. Even out to 1000yds it's a hard caliber to beat with wind speeds under 15mph.

 

Unfortunately of course, wind speeds in excess of that are all to frequent :blink:

 

Brian

I have to say that I have seen many 6.5x47's perform fantastic out to 600 yards with the Dorset Riflemen (F class target) only to be completely destroyed at 1000 yards, so much so in fact that many of the users of the 6.5x47 have switched over to the .284.

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Great post Laurie and in total agreement about the 6.5x47 Lapua. Even out to 1000yds it's a hard caliber to beat with wind speeds under 15mph.

 

Unfortunately of course, wind speeds in excess of that are all to frequent :blink:

 

Brian

 

Well almost any 7mm of comparable intrinsic accuracy will have a distrinct edge over most any 6.5 as distance and wind increase,the better ballistics outweigh the somewhat lower "shoot ability" (recoil),though this is even less of a concern in some competitions-eg using a rest,or moderator,or increased weight.

The big 30s tend to go the other way- hard to be shoot able enough,despite ballistic advantages,and remain reasonable weight.

See Laurie's excellent assessment-there is no free lunch,but 7s are the current a la carte choice for good reason,when optimum performance is wanted.Any of several 6.5s might well be a more manageable beastie for many shooters,at club etc level.

Gbal

 

 

 

Ll

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As Laurie said, if you are going to take the F-Class game seriously then the 7mm are the way to go.

 

But as a centrefire club shooter, the lighter recoil, extended barrel life and lower ammunition cost are attractive to me.

 

Regards the 6.5x47 at 1000yds I can tell you last year I loaned my rifle to a current British Army sniper who was shooting with us, he hit the orange marker with four of his five shots, the fifth being about 1” outside, albeit in light conditions. He seemed impressed (as was I)

 

May not even be legal for F-Class, but I don't care :)

 

TubeGun2_zps5c0ab739.jpg

 

Brian

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As Laurie said, if you are going to take the F-Class game seriously then the 7mm are the way to go.

 

But as a centrefire club shooter, the lighter recoil, extended barrel life and lower ammunition cost are attractive to me.

 

Regards the 6.5x47 at 1000yds I can tell you last year I loaned my rifle to a current British Army sniper who was shooting with us, he hit the orange marker with four of his five shots, the fifth being about 1” outside, albeit in light conditions. He seemed impressed (as was I)

 

May not even be legal for F-Class, but I don't care :)

 

[img=http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c24/argoncorp/TubeGun2_zps5c0ab739.jpg]

 

Brian

 

 

Impressed it is,suggests snipers can shoot,and this rile can.We of course don't know what he might have done with 7mm.

Must be reassuring for you Brian,and give you confidence in the rifle.No one use defines shooting skill or pleasure.

 

Gbal

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There has been some interesting discussion on the AccurateShooter Forum recently re actually achieved / achievable elevation spreads at 1,000 as opposed to theoretical ..........

 

 

http://forum.accurateshooter.com/index.php?topic=3810654.0

 

 

http://forum.accurateshooter.com/index.php?topic=3810716.0

 

.............. and the claim has been made that when 6.5-284 was king, this cartridge produced really small verticals, smaller than seen with the sevens. I can't comment on this as I don't shoot either contender, but have been really surprised at how small long-range verticals are with the piddling little 123gn 6.5mm Lapua Scenar fired from the not exactly huge .260 Rem.

 

Anyway ..., the question has now arisen, in this instance PLUS the introduction of the 0.264" Berger 140gn Hybrid whose BC closes the gap with the best of the sevens, should there be a revival of 6.5-284?

 

It seems that real life experience here may be contradicting theoretical ballistics even when improved ones using Bryan Litz's bullet-tested data and G7 values and programs. That is, 7mm still beats 6.5mm convincingly even when the latter holds verticals better and the difference in wind performance has (allegedly) become very small.

 

OR .... is it, that once the top people adopt something new as in moving from .30 to 6.5mm then to 7mm over the last 10 or 15 years, that whatever they use will most likely win and the thundering herd naturally follows behind, making the choice of the current in-thing self-reinforcing?

 

It's an interesting question that some of the F-Open shooters on the forum might constribute to. I can remember that in the early days of the sevens, several Effers brought both new 7mm and older 6.5-284 rifles to league matches saying they'd use the 6.5 if the winds were light. The Team Border Barrels guys used to do this often if I remember right. In the event, they'd either stick with the seven, or if they used the 6.5 in day 1 would move to their severns in day 2 saying it'd been a mistake. After a few such league rounds, almost everybody brought sevens only. I know that Simon Rogers was a great fan of the 6.5 and only moved up to a 7mm short magnum reluctantly and largely because he'd shot the stuffing out of his 6.5 barrel.

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There has been some interesting discussion on the AccurateShooter Forum recently re actually achieved / achievable elevation spreads at 1,000 as opposed to theoretical ..........

 

http://forum.accurateshooter.com/index.php?topic=3810654.0

 

http://forum.accurateshooter.com/index.php?topic=3810716.0

 

.............. and the claim has been made that when 6.5-284 was king, this cartridge produced really small verticals, smaller than seen with the sevens. I can't comment on this as I don't shoot either contender, but have been really surprised at how small long-range verticals are with the piddling little 123gn 6.5mm Lapua Scenar fired from the not exactly huge .260 Rem.

Anyway ..., the question has now arisen, in this instance PLUS the introduction of the 0.264" Berger 140gn Hybrid whose BC closes the gap with the best of the sevens, should there be a revival of 6.5-284?

 

It seems that real life experience here may be contradicting theoretical ballistics even when improved ones using Bryan Litz's bullet-tested data and G7 values and programs. That is, 7mm still beats 6.5mm convincingly even when the latter holds verticals better and the difference in wind performance has (allegedly) become very smal

 

OR .... is it, that once the top people adopt something new as in moving from .30 to 6.5mm then to 7mm over the last 10 or 15 years, that whatever they use will most likely win and the thundering herd naturally follows behind, making the choice of the current in-thing self-reinforcing?

 

It's an interesting question that some of the F-Open shooters on the forum might constribute to. I can remember that in the early days of the sevens, several Effers brought both new 7mm and older 6.5-284 rifles to league matches saying they'd use the 6.5 if the winds

were light. The Team Border Barrels guys used to do this often if I remember right. In the event, they'd either stick with the seven, or if they used the 6.5 in day 1 would move to their severns in day 2 saying it'd been a mistake. After a few such league rounds, almost everybody brought sevens only. I know that Simon Rogers was a great fan of the 6.5 and only moved up to a 7mm short magnum reluctantly and largely because he'd shot the stuffing out of his 6.5 barrel.

 

Laurie,

Interesting-we don't often get a well controlled test,alas.SR of course could have rebarreled in 6.5 ......

We could look at performances with the two over some years,though we could

not be totally confident in ruling out continuous improvement in wind reading too.Might even be confounded-6.5 experiences makes a better 7 shooter!

Followers of fashion effect is there,but that doesn't explain the fashion setters performances,or why they change their preferred cartridge.

There might also be a small interaction effect between cartridge and shooter variables-one such might be the ability to handle recoil- it would not have to be large to be consistent with the small margins between top shooters.

As with quite a lot of real world questions,there is no great theoretical issue to resolve to get an answer,but the chances of a clear very well controlled study are rather remote,so we have to look for what data there is-though some is a whole lot better than the other.Just too many variables to resolve the issue ,without a proper designed test.

To date,not a lot goes hard against the 7s,it seems.

Gbal

 

 

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As Laurie said, if you are going to take the F-Class game seriously then the 7mm are the way to go.

 

But as a centrefire club shooter, the lighter recoil, extended barrel life and lower ammunition cost are attractive to me.

 

Regards the 6.5x47 at 1000yds I can tell you last year I loaned my rifle to a current British Army sniper who was shooting with us, he hit the orange marker with four of his five shots, the fifth being about 1” outside, albeit in light conditions. He seemed impressed (as was I)

 

May not even be legal for F-Class, but I don't care :)

 

TubeGun2_zps5c0ab739.jpg

 

Brian

 

Don't see why that wouldn't be 'legal' for F Class Open - it looks quite light.

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Impressed it is,suggests snipers can shoot,and this rile can.We of course don't know what he might have done with 7mm. Must be reassuring for you Brian,and give you confidence in the rifle.No one use defines shooting skill or pleasure. Gbal

 

 

It is reassuring, knowing that your rifle is capable of such results in reasonable conditions. It's also reassuring the training the army gives it's sniper shooters, seems to be money well spent!!

 

The lesson I took from the "display" was a good wind reader will beat a big boomer in lesser hands.

 

But as you say, would he have done any better with a 7mm. I don't think he would and I certainly wouldn't, I'm not recoil shy, but I don't like having my teeth rattled when I can get similar results from a rifle that's a pleasure to shoot.

 

Vince,

 

It's certainly not light, Barnard action and full length (31/32" ?) Bartlein barrel. I've never weighed it, but with the Canadian bi-pod fitted I reckon it would be overweight. I'll get it on the scales this weekend and see what it comes to out of interest.

 

Brian

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As Laurie said, if you are going to take the F-Class game seriously then the 7mm are the way to go.

 

But as a centrefire club shooter, the lighter recoil, extended barrel life and lower ammunition cost are attractive to me.

 

Regards the 6.5x47 at 1000yds I can tell you last year I loaned my rifle to a current British Army sniper who was shooting with us, he hit the orange marker with four of his five shots, the fifth being about 1” outside, albeit in light conditions. He seemed impressed (as was I)

 

May not even be legal for F-Class, but I don't care :)

 

TubeGun2_zps5c0ab739.jpg

 

Brian

 

Don't see why that wouldn't be 'legal' for F Class Open - it looks quite light.

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Brian,

 

6.5X47 puts you into F-Class where you've got ~22 lb to play with and you'll be well below that with your rig. If you'd built it as a 308 for F/TR class, I know from running a tubegun stocked rig that it can be hard to stay within the 8.25 kg all-up weight limit (i/c bi-pod) especially if you choose the Eliseo B1 that uses the heavy Barnard Model P action. We can't see the action on your rifle, but if it's a Remy 700 or clone thereof, that saves around a pound over the Barnard.

 

I suspect you're getting confused between the two classes and thinking you have to make the 8.25 kg (18lb 2 ounces) including bi-pod limit?

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Brian,

 

6.5X47 puts you into F-Class where you've got ~22 lb to play with and you'll be well below that with your rig. If you'd built it as a 308 for F/TR class, I know from running a tubegun stocked rig that it can be hard to stay within the 8.25 kg all-up weight limit (i/c bi-pod) especially if you choose the Eliseo B1 that uses the heavy Barnard Model P action. We can't see the action on your rifle, but if it's a Remy 700 or clone thereof, that saves around a pound over the Barnard.

 

I suspect you're getting confused between the two classes and thinking you have to make the 8.25 kg (18lb 2 ounces) including bi-pod limit?

 

It uses the Barnard P action Laurie. I'll weigh it at work tomorrow and see what it comes out at.

 

Brian

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  • 2 months later...

Still haven't got round to weighing this rifle :wacko: but had it out on Saturday testing some Berger 140gr Hybrid's.

 

Very impressed, 36.7gr of RL15, 450 primers, jumped .020". Three shot groups I could cover with a pound coin at 200yds.

 

Hopefully get out later this month and see how they go at longer distances.

 

Brian

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  • 3 weeks later...
<didn’t quote all to save space>

 

 

mostly club shooting / 600 yards normally tops and economy / barrel life is important - 6.5X47 Lapua

As above but a bit more performance needed at the expense of barrel life - 6.5X55mm

Taking it seriously and more 800-1K matches - .284 Win

Really taking it seriously for 1K - 284 Shehane or 7-300WSM .... and get a 2nd rifle for club matches.

Thank you for this detailed explanation Laurie, it’s really helped and confirmed what I was thinking. :)

 

Ben

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