centrefire for foxing

[Barrelsniffer]

Hiya Barrelsniffer,

 

Accuracy is ofter interpreted in different ways by different people,

 

How do you measure it?

 

How do you compare it over the life of a barrel?

 

The 6mmbr/accurate shooter.com website has been going a long time and has some very useful resources on it donated by some knowledgeable people, when you read the opening paragraphs and footnote at the bottom of the page I think the author sums things up quite well.

 

How long will a barrel last before the accuracy “goes south”? There are so many variables involved (powder type, bore diameter, bullet coatings etc.) that it’s hard to predict. You might say “Well, my buddy has a .243 and he got 1500 rounds before the throat was shot out” — those kind of comparisons can be useful, but they’re not very scientific, and they won’t help much if you’ve got a gun in a new chambering (such as the 6.5×47) for which long-term test results are lacking.

Is there a more reliable way to predict barrel life — one that will work for a broad range of calibers? Well, Forum member MikeCr has developed an Excel spreadsheet that accounts for a number of variables, and gives a pretty good estimate of useful barrel life, whether you’re shooting a .223 Rem or a 338 Lapua Magnum. Mike’s program predicts barrel life using five variables: 1) Bullet Diameter; 2) Powder Charge weight; 3) Powder Heat Potential (KJ/kg); 4) Pressure (in psi); and 5) Bullet Coating (yes/no). Mike provides a table with Heat Potential ratings for most popular powder types. The user needs to know the pressure of his load. This can be estimated with QuickLOAD.

 

NOTE: Mike says: “This spreadsheet may show a lower barrel life than you prefer. But it pretty well spotlights cartridges to stay away from if you plan much time at the range or in dog town.”

 

This is not the only online barrel life calculator either, I have tried a few and they all come up with similar statistics.

 

Are they all wrong ?

 

Or do we just not like what it is saying about our own particular rifle caliber?

Never said they were wrong i just never use them or worry about it..my 17 has shot few thou over the yrs way more than your quote and when its does drop off then i will get barrel looked at i don't even count how many shots have gone through a barrel my rifles are there for a job as long as they fulfill my needs and are accurate and not neglected...accuracy to me is when i can constantly put placement of bullets at longer ranges in same POI at any given range..been shooting a long long time..and a rifle i will use till i know its time to change.. until then..i will keep banging away

[22/250 foxer]

There all as good as each other. Lots of different forms of 17, 20, and 22 cf rifles each people have there

Own favourite they all kill.

 

I wouldn't look into the barrel life charts to much. After all a lack of good cleaning will soon kill a barrel also.

As minkstone said at normal foxing ranges you can't tell the difference in them all.

 

I've shot with a couple of lads over the years. And lucky to try s number of different calibres

Some I've owned myself some they own.

 

17 fireball and 17 Remington

204

222

223

22/250 and 22/250 ai

6br and 243

 

The 223 and 6br imo are probably 2 of the best. They are cheap to run and offer good choice of bullets

Yes there not the fastest but at normal foxing ranges drop really isn't a issue.

 

My favourite is the 22/250 though. Maybe because it was my 1st cf rifle and really like the rpa I have

 

[gbal]

There all as good as each other. Lots of different forms of 17, 20, and 22 cf rifles each people have there Own favourite they all kill. I wouldn't look into the barrel life charts to much. After all a lack of good cleaning will soon kill a barrel also. As minkstone said at normal foxing ranges you can't tell the difference in them all. I've shot with a couple of lads over the years. And lucky to try s number of different calibres Some I've owned myself some they own. 17 fireball and 17 Remington 204 222 223 22/250 and 22/250 ai 6br and 243 The 223 and 6br imo are probably 2 of the best. They are cheap to run and offer good choice of bullets Yes there not the fastest but at normal foxing ranges drop really isn't a issue. My favourite is the 22/250 though. Maybe because it was my 1st cf rifle and really like the rpa I have

Agreed-I'd add in the 22 and 6ppc,and 30 BR-but they all do it-the old BRNO Fox in 222 was aptly named,and a very successful combination.I have never witnessed a failure with any of these that was down to the calibre or rifle.I have reservations about the rimfires except at very much shorter range-yes,sometimes- but not in the cf class,where out to 200/250 yards it hardly matters which one (Hornet apart-it is not their equal at 250).If you think an inch or so is ballistically worth it,go for it.I would not cart a heavy/expensive rifle etc around,but that's personal preference- their advantages are not too apparent in mobile fox shooting.

george

[204 RUGER]

Whats your powder load.

 

Barrel life will alter massively depending upon the powder you choose, some powders burn a lot hotter than others. I just ran quickload for you and as an example if you use 23 grains of Viht 135 with a 25 grain VMax you will get approximately 1975 accurate rounds from your 17Rem.

 

However if you were to use Varget the barrel life is reduced to approximately 1100 rounds because Varget has a much hotter burn temperature.

 

Varget has a Heat of explosion /Potential of 4050kj/kg

Viht 135 has a heat of explosion/Potential of 3590kj/kg

 

Powder choice can affect barrel life dramatically.

Thanks mate, I haven't had the 17 rem made yet so want to get an idea of barrel life. Interesting what you noted about Varget, I was considering either Varget or 4895......

[204 RUGER]

Hiya Barrelsniffer,

 

Accuracy is ofter interpreted in different ways by different people,

 

How do you measure it?

 

How do you compare it over the life of a barrel?

 

The 6mmbr/accurate shooter.com website has been going a long time and has some very useful resources on it donated by some knowledgeable people, when you read the opening paragraphs and footnote at the bottom of the page I think the author sums things up quite well.

 

How long will a barrel last before the accuracy “goes south”? There are so many variables involved (powder type, bore diameter, bullet coatings etc.) that it’s hard to predict. You might say “Well, my buddy has a .243 and he got 1500 rounds before the throat was shot out” — those kind of comparisons can be useful, but they’re not very scientific, and they won’t help much if you’ve got a gun in a new chambering (such as the 6.5×47) for which long-term test results are lacking.

Is there a more reliable way to predict barrel life — one that will work for a broad range of calibers? Well, Forum member MikeCr has developed an Excel spreadsheet that accounts for a number of variables, and gives a pretty good estimate of useful barrel life, whether you’re shooting a .223 Rem or a 338 Lapua Magnum. Mike’s program predicts barrel life using five variables: 1) Bullet Diameter; 2) Powder Charge weight; 3) Powder Heat Potential (KJ/kg); 4) Pressure (in psi); and 5) Bullet Coating (yes/no). Mike provides a table with Heat Potential ratings for most popular powder types. The user needs to know the pressure of his load. This can be estimated with QuickLOAD.

 

NOTE: Mike says: “This spreadsheet may show a lower barrel life than you prefer. But it pretty well spotlights cartridges to stay away from if you plan much time at the range or in dog town.”

 

This is not the only online barrel life calculator either, I have tried a few and they all come up with similar statistics.

 

Are they all wrong ?

 

Or do we just not like what it is saying about our own particular rifle caliber?

 

The calcualtors are a good guide, may not be 100% accurate but it will atleast give a comparable lifespan between differnt cals. At the end of the day sending a piece of metal fast down a metal tube is gong to cause wear, over time that continual wear is going to effect accuracy. In practical hunting terms is that drop in accuracy going t be material, probably not until the barrel is totally shot out, but if you are a target shooter that drop in accuracy is going to be noticed sooner.

[garyw]

Thanks mate, I haven't had the 17 rem made yet so want to get an idea of barrel life. Interesting what you noted about Varget, I was considering either Varget or 4895......

the best powder for the .17 rem and this is with my testing done over a fair few years-is viht 135.,varget is my back up powder but i always have a healthy stack of 135. as for what will put charlie to sleep i had a 14/221 walker and with a 15gn custom bullet that did the trick.

my .17rem is at its best with 20vmax -you dont need a cannon for vermin in this country,i soon realised that when i had a 22/250 but was wasting powder -i took a step back and soon realised that with a small powder charge and a small very frangible bullet you can have plenty of fun.although i do use a .22br in the summer when the fields are in stubble now that is a fox round -you pays your money you takes your choice!

[204 RUGER]

the best powder for the .17 rem and this is with my testing done over a fair few years-is viht 135.,varget is my back up powder but i always have a healthy stack of 135. as for what will put charlie to sleep i had a 14/221 walker and with a 15gn custom bullet that did the trick.

my .17rem is at its best with 20vmax -you dont need a cannon for vermin in this country,i soon realised that when i had a 22/250 but was wasting powder -i took a step back and soon realised that with a small powder charge and a small very frangible bullet you can have plenty of fun.although i do use a .22br in the summer when the fields are in stubble now that is a fox round -you pays your money you takes your choice!

 

Cheers, I'll be picking some 135 up at the show on Sunday. I always have Varget in my cupboard because I use it on all of my other calls including the 204,

[Glenn]

AnthonyR

You don't have time to mess about making calculations when shooting foxes at night, the faster and flatter a round is with good windage the better.

 

I could not agree more.

 

After reading the above statement I thought I would give my 2 cents.

 

I use a 20PPC for fox shooting with a 40gr VMax over 27.5grs of powder and get 4000fps.

One inch high at 100m for a 300m zero.

It works extremly well!

 

If it gets windy then I use my 6x47Lapua with a 67gr projectile over 39grs of powder and get 3800fps!

One inch high at 100m for a 300m zero.

It dose make a big mess of them but we don't skin them anyway!

 

As you can see I think the same as Anthony!

 

Flat and efficient.

 

Glenn

[gaz6br]

After reading the above statement I thought I would give my 2 cents.

 

I use a 20PPC for fox shooting with a 40gr VMax over 27.5grs of powder and get 4000fps.

One inch high at 100m for a 300m zero.

It works extremly well!

 

If it gets windy then I use my 6x47Lapua with a 67gr projectile over 39grs of powder and get 3800fps!

One inch high at 100m for a 300m zero.

It dose make a big mess of them but we don't skin them anyway!

 

As you can see I think the same as Anthony!

 

Flat and efficient.

 

Glenn

 

Hi Glenn

 

What powder you using in the 20ppc??

 

Gaz.

[bewsh]

I went with the .222

its not fashionable so you can pick up a lot of gun for next to nothing

it has a long neck and is idiot proof to reload

 

as for drop and windage.....if I could judge the difference between a 6 mph wind and a 11mph wind at night then it might become a factor for consideration!!

 

I want a round the shoots within a 4" MPBR out to 250"

 

throws a minimum 50gr bullet as no amount of tinkering is a substitute for delivered energy downrange

[triple2]

I went with the .222

its not fashionable so you can pick up a lot of gun for next to nothing

it has a long neck and is idiot proof to reload

 

as for drop and windage.....if I could judge the difference between a 6 mph wind and a 11mph wind at night then it might become a factor for consideration!!

 

I want a round the shoots within a 4" MPBR out to 250"

 

throws a minimum 50gr bullet as no amount of tinkering is a substitute for delivered energy downrange

I have a .222 never had a problem with it, and the foxes don't seem to mind either.

[tackb]

Is this still rattling on?

 

Just get 223/222 and get on with your fox control ?

[Alycidon]

I used to have a 22.250, good killer agreed but muzzle flip meant you only sometimes saw the fox go down ( no moddy) and never saw rabbits etc getting splattered.

 

My go to fox rifle now is a 20 caliber (20BR) throated for berger 50s which along with 39gr SBKs it shoots very well. downloaded to 3500 there is no recoil to speak of. Kills are always seen even without a moddy.

 

Overall Fox kill rate is just in excess of 94%, very very few of my foxes are shot at over 250 yards, an odd one yes but not many.

 

Given a choice of 204 or 22.250 I think Ronny as laid out the situation very well, less drop. less drift, less recoil, less power, longer barrel life. so 204 ( or Prac 20 Tac 20if reloading) wins hands down IMHO. It will do all a fox shooter wants as far as most people have the ability to shoot it.

 

A

[simon6ppc]

i shoot foxes alot on moorland and me personaly when your taking shots on land thats hard to judge distance at night the 22.250 you cant beat. to me it just makes it easier to hit. but all the above mentioned will do the job as good in the right hands.

[247sniper]

hard to judge distance at night the 22.250 you cant beat. to me it just makes it easier to hit.

 

 

The 20's are flatter shooting! Dead Charlie either way like but with reference to your comment, its untrue.

[6.5shooter]

 

The 20's are flatter shooting! Dead Charlie either way like but with reference to your comment, its untrue.

 

 

 

Try a 220 swift shooting 53 grainers at 4000 fps!!

Flatter and more energy delivered!

[247sniper]

Try a 220 swift shooting 53 grainers at 4000 fps!!

Flatter and more energy delivered!

 

And a new barrel a month as standard !

[gbal]

And a new barrel a month as standard !

 

Try a 220 swift shooting 53 grainers at 4000 fps!!

Flatter and more energy delivered!

Maligned fairly (using contemporary powder,barrels etc) or not,the Swift isn't the cartridge for a first rifle/beginner for UK vermin/foxes.Velocity etc is by no means the only/most important consideration,given you are in the 22 cf category of performance.,and keeping to sensible distances.After that,the 6mms will win anyhow,but getting OTT for most situations.

george

[AnthonyR]

The 20's are flatter shooting! Dead Charlie either way like but with reference to your comment, its untrue.

 

Have you actually read the thread?

[247sniper]

Have you actually read the thread?

Yes I have, and like was stated, the .22-250 load you gave needs 13 Grains more then my .204 needs to produce the same results and 15 grains more then the stated practical Thats more then half the amount of powder again needed to compete with the 20's! with this extra powder comes the expense,extra noise,extra recoil etc etc etc, and god knows what the barrel like would be, think it was predicted just over 1000 according to the trend on page 2.

[6.5shooter]

I must laugh to myself at all of the shooters who shoot a .20 who try to defend it so hard that they get very defensive!

No one is saying its not a good cal, for crows and rabbits it is an excellent cal but for a dedicated fox round there are better out there.

Scenario, shooting through stubble, long grass, rushes etc those little 32-39 grain bullets are going to smash up on grass etc before delivering full killing power to fox.

The heavier bullets always stand a better chance.

All this talk of flat shooting is essential is bull****, I have shot more foxes with a 223 using 60 vmax than anyother rifle that I own! Most foxes I have shot are between 30 yards and 200. The swift just makes it easier in unknown distances in wide open areas as someone has already pointed out.

Barrel life, this is a misconception among the keyboard warriors, My last swift had well over 2000 rounds before I got bored of the rifle and wanted a change. It shot under 1/4 moa and when I sold it it still shot .4! I had shot crows/rabbits/fox and if I wantedto keep it for a dedicated foxing rifle im sure it would have still killed thousands of foxes beit another couple of rounds on the barrel until it shot 1 1/2 - 2 inch groups! The .20 cal rifles arent going to be so easy on barrels either, they may not heat the barrel as much but its still an overbore cart and nothing lasts forever!

As to Georges argument over 6mm, ues this is very true but here in Northern Ireland .22 centrefire is as big as we are allowed for fox so 6mm is a non starter for me, this is why the swift is my cart of choice!

But this is only my point of view, some may agree and some may not but hey thats life. I think the 'best foxing rifle' debate will go on forever as many have their favourites but you still cant beat thatheavier bullet for penetration in the .22 cal.

[deadeye]

I just want to add my own 2cent here.

 

Lads that are saying they can't Controle the recoil on a 22-250 need to work on their recoil management and shooting technique.

 

Having said that, if its just fox shooting to reasonabl distance mout to 300+ yards. Then any of the calibers mentioned will do the job.

 

I have taken foxes with my .223 out to 400y with 55g V-Max. I sold my .223 a couple of years ago so never got to use 53gV-Max but a friend of mine has used them with great success.

 

I now use a .243 with 75g V-Max. Very accurate and hard hitting. Other than target practice I have not shot any foxes out further or deader with my .243 over .223.

 

What I am saying is, in practical fox shooting most any centre fire cartridge will do the job and its just a case of which one tickles your fancy.

They all have their pros and cons. Barrel life and the cost of loading for them can all play a part. You need to weigh up what kind of shooting you are doing and choose your caliber with they in mind.

 

If you are shooting in small fields and sheltered areas. Then a hornet (17 or .22) will be more than enough. However if you are shooting in wide open and exposed areas then you will need a better wind busting caliber. And to me that means .22-250 or .243 with appropriate bullets for those conditions.

 

I am not knocking any caliber they are all capable and if I live long enough I will hopefully owne and use most if not all of them.

 

To the op the most important thing to consider is weather or not you want to reload. And what the price and availability of ammo will be like.

 

Happy hunting.

[Gandy]

For the guys that claim to shoot foxes at 300-400yds regularly, I suggest they invest in a rangefinder. :D

Finally, I can just about see 200 yard with a red filter on a lamp (light force).

 

I'm very cautious about shooting farther than this distance as it doesn't matter how flat and hard hitting your rifle is when a fox is lamp shy from a miss.

 

For what it worth I shoot a .243.

 

It's been a very interesting thread about the smaller calibers though.

[gbal]

For the guys that claim to shoot foxes at 300-400yds regularly, I suggest they invest in a rangefinder. :D

....good idea,the chronoscope tamed wildcatting.

 

A set of 'Numbers and Statistics for Beginners' will help with the theory too.Amazon Books have them on special offer:two volumes for the price of three.

 

george

[deadeye]

I use a Lica rangemaster 1200. And my lamp is a 170 lightforce. With no filter.

My scope is a zeiss victory 6-24x56. On a good clear night you will see a fox out to 500y.